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Location: Wooster, Ohio | I have been playing my 1993 Collector that has a bone bridge instead of the tradition Ovation piezo crystal bridge. I am really struck by how bright and loud the acoustic sound is on this guitar. Were there other models that did this?
Steve |
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| Is your 93C acoustic only (no pre-amp)? If not, and you haven't replaced anything, then it has the Thinline saddle/piezo (as opposed to the Original Patented Pickup), which is still a thermoplastic saddle, and not bone. You could replace the saddle on acoustic-only models with a bone or ivory saddle, but to do that with an A/E would mean replacing all the electronics, as the saddle and piezo pickup are an integrated unit.
BTW, the bridge is the wooden part attached the the guitar top, while the saddle, upon which the strings rest, sits inside the saddle slot that's cut into the bridge. Most of the vibrational energy from the strings is transferred through the saddle to the top, with only a minor part of that energy through the bridge itself. That's why denser saddle (and bridge pin, where applicable) materials can make a guitar sound louder and increase harmonic undertones and sustain. |
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Location: Caribou, ME | I bought 20 bone blanks the other day and the first thing I did was replace the plastic one out of my "go-to" (this week) mid 70s 1111-6.
Nice. It was like it cut the mids and accentuated the bass and treble.
I knew there would be an improvement but I don't generally swap out a saddle unless it's damaged or a poor fit. I'm not one to seek improvement just for improvement's sake.... they get into discussions over on the Gibson forum about saddle, nut, and bridge pin attributes and God forbid if anyone says "I don't hear any difference in the $100 walrus tusk pins". |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I bought 4 bone nut and 4 bone saddles for disgustingly cheap from Taiwan...
Already slotted and everything, supposedly for Martin, but I put a bone saddle in that CK047-Koa.
Even though I installed it with an Artec undersaddle piezo it Massively Improved the acoustic sound of that guitar.
Suddenly it was brighter, louder, and had more clarity.
And the pickup still worked through the bone.
I might add that the saddle was about an eighth-inch too short lengthwise, so there was an aesthetic problem with appearance...
But it sounded great and the current owner was really pleased.
I believe that I got mine from these people... |
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Location: SoCal | Gator, I agree with your description of the saddle and bridge, but the bridge does play a part in that you want a saddle to fit snuggly into a saddle slot (always that that was the part of the saddle where my cajones could fit so they wouldn't get hurt when the horse ran). That way, all of the vibration is transferred to the top. If it's not a snug fit then you lose vibration..... |
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| True dat, Paul. |
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Location: Wooster, Ohio | sorry meant to say saddle. The guitar is original with the thinline pickup I am sure. I just was curious if they did this with any other models. They were really going after acoustic sound with this model and their efforts seem to yield fruit. Come to think of it I had a parlor guitar that had a thin saddle as well.
Steve |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | Hi Steve,
When I sent my Patriot (acoustic only) back to the factory for its 30-year (+ or -) service, I had them replace the original nut and saddle with bone. It was VERY nice before, and after, it was even better. It had a fuller all-around tone to my amateur ear anyway.
I also got a nice fossilized walrus ivory saddle for my Martin D-42 as it somehow wound up with one that looked like micarta. WORLD'S of difference with that swap in a very good way. |
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Location: Tennessee | I have a K-1111 40th RI that came stock with a bone saddle. My 1969 winged bridge 1117 is bone and I think it's original but I'm not positive. But none of the a/e have bone, no matter which pickup. |
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Location: Wooster, Ohio | So the thinline on the 1993 is hard plastic not bone, just looked like bone to me. Got to take it out and look at the next string change.
steve |
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Location: Flahdaw | What are your thoughts regarding Tusq's claims...
If you have an acoustic or vintage guitar, you owe it to yourself to hear the difference a TUSQ nut, saddle and bridge pins make. Compared to standard materials such as bone, micarta or corian, you'll hear more harmonics with every note you play when you use TUSQ on your guitar.
TUSQ has quickly become an important tone performance tool for some of the world's most renowned guitar manufacturers, luthiers and playing professionals. TUSQ nuts and saddles have rich tone and sustain, without the inconsistency found in ivory, bone and other natural materials. Bone and ivory have hard and soft spots (grain) throughout each piece, hampering consistent transfer of vibrations to the guitar top. TUSQ nuts, saddles and bridge pins are designed to transfer the right frequencies more efficiently from the string to the guitar body. Acoustic guitars come alive!
* Rich Tone: a crystal clear bell like high end and big open low end.
* Engineered for maximum vibration transfer.
* Consistent quality from piece to piece and within each piece.
* Easy to work with - can be filed and sanded; will not chip or flake
* Laboratory-proven to enhance harmonic content (up to 200%)
* Used by the world's finest guitar manufacturers.
* No flat or dead spots that can be found in bone or ivory. |
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| The doily knitters on the high end guitar forums look down on Tusq about as much as they do Ovations. I haven't compared Tusq to a natural material, so I can't say. I imagine much of the above description is marketing spoo, but at the same time I'm sure Tusq would offer an improvement over a less dense thermoplastic. And the nut would have the least effect on the sound, probably not worth the cost unlike the saddle and bridge pins. |
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Location: Caribou, ME | To me it's one of those deals where TUSQ is better 'on paper' than bone, at least as far as energy transfer goes. But being better 'on paper' doesn't mean it will sound better to our ears.
On paper, Lace Sensor pickups should have driven traditional magnet and wire pickups right out of business, but we all know that didn't happen.
For what it's worth, I've never heard anyone say they got rid of a bone saddle and replaced it with TUSQ; it's always the other way around.
It's all in the ears I guess. I do know I'll be retrofitting many of my guitars with bone, including a 2007 Gibson CJ-165 Rosewood that has been played about 83 minutes. I plan to do a UST-ectomy at the same time. People have claimed a screamingly dramatic improvement in tone with bone on that model. |
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Location: Cicero, NY | I can see an effect of a saddle swap but I'm not sure I'm seeing how bridge pins would have an effect. I've heard they can but if all things are equal (and, yes I know, they never are) does pin density really have a significant (read: noticeable to the ear) effect on top vibration and tone? |
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Location: Flahdaw | This brings to mind another question....
If you have a tremendous BONE or ivory saddle, then add a shim or two underneath it, doesn't that defeat any benefits? (unless you use a bone shim, I guess) |
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Location: Cicero, NY | And I would think even a bone shim would be slightly less efficient than a single solid saddle, no? |
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Location: Caribou, ME | I avoid shims as much as I can; if a higher saddle is needed I'd prefer to just make one.
Adding a shim 'should' affect the tone but I just question if our ears would hear it. Typically shims are soft plastic; you bring up a good point, what if the shim were bone? Or for that matter, if the shim were the same material as the bridge itself.... rosewood, ebony, whatever.
I've had nice old bone saddles with a lot of patina that I really didn't want to swap out. I've been known to super glue an old chipped or broken bone saddle onto the underside, so it looks like an upside down 'T', then grind and sand off what I don't need, leaving a ~1/8" booster on the old saddle. |
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| Bob Colosi (I provided a link earlier), who provides top-grade nut, saddle and bone material as well as makes custom of the same, recommends and provides thin strips of dense wood such as ebony or rosewood that you can glue to the bottom of the saddle if you need to shim it. I think the key is to have full contact of the saddle with the saddle slot, sides and bottom.
Wease, I never would have thought bridge pins would make much of a difference. That is, until I replaced the plastic pins on my old Tak EF360SC with bone pins. The increase in sustain was tremendous, along with a noticeable increase in harmonic undertones. I know, the ball end of a properly installed string is what makes contact with the bridge plate, and so would transfer the vibration energy there. But there was no doubt just changing the pins made a BIG difference in that guitar. |
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Location: Michigan | I have had to make a couple of tapered shims. I tried bone, plastic, and the specific wood the bridge was made of. I would like to tell you I can hear a differnce between the bone and plastic but I can't. I have settled on makeing them out of the wood that the bridge is made of. I can't tell the difference but then again it is for a guitar with a standard ovation pickup so it is plastic anyway. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Funny....a bone saddle is under $20 (ivory is pretty pricey). Why mess with shims? Seems to me if you need to raise your action, get a new saddle and sand it to fit. Ain't rocket science. |
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| Right on both counts. No need to shim if you shape your saddle to the correct height. And you would need to compensate a saddle that's perpendicular to the strings. If you look at the plastic Original Patented Pickup saddle on Ovations, you'll see the compensation profile (or look at the saddle on the Larry you got from me). Look at the pic of the 93C, and you'll see the Thinline is at an angle to the strings. The angled saddle slot provides the compensation in that case. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Here's someone who has given your point a lot of thought, Serge.
YIKES |
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Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | Originally posted by dark bar:
Funny....a bone saddle is under $20 (ivory is pretty pricey). Why mess with shims? Seems to me if you need to raise your action, get a new saddle and sand it to fit. Ain't rocket science. Even so, you need a place to do the work. Presently, I would have to use my kitchen table. Until I settle into a place with some space to set aside, I'll cheat with the shims. |
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Location: Utah | Recently I added a second shim under the piezo saddle on tha Adamas and noticed a slight loss in crispness. When there is time I will replace the shims with a bone one to see if it helps. At least on paper it seems that multiple plastic shims which don't support the entire length of the saddle would be less than ideal. |
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Location: SoCal | Interesting. Normally, when you raise a saddle up, you gain crispness and tone.... |
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Location: Caribou, ME | Could be some energy loss in the plastic shims. |
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Location: Michigan | Originally posted by FlySig:
Recently I added a second shim under the piezo saddle on tha Adamas and noticed a slight loss in crispness. When there is time I will replace the shims with a bone one to see if it helps. At least on paper it seems that multiple plastic shims which don't support the entire length of the saddle would be less than ideal. I think you are right to go with just one shim insted of multiples but to tell you the truth I could not tell the difference between bone and plastic but then again my saddle is the Ovation plastic gizmo with the gell and crystals so take that for what it is worth. |
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Location: Wooster, Ohio | Pins can make more of a difference than you think. You can even change the tone of one string by using a different material. On carbon fiber guitars the low E sometimes needs a kick and guys will put a brass pin just on that string. If you use a material that is total different you can at least hear the change a pin can make. For me I am not sure the change was a good one. Went back to tusq.
Steve |
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Location: Omaha, NE | IMHO, quality tone (as it relates to saddles) is about 95% proper fit and about 5% material.
What happens is that players with factory, "parts-bin" saddles (which are very often Tusq these days, and which are invariably just a smidge on the loose side so they go in without taking time for final fitting) replace those saddles with something else...BUT in the process they carefully hone the saddle and achieve a superior fit.
Then they declare "Bone (or FWI, or EI or whatever) is superior to Tusq!"
No. A well fit saddle is superior to a parts-bin fit saddle.
JMHO, YMMV, etc.
Also in the FWIW, JMHO, YMMV category, I've never played a thinline pickup Ovation that I thought was nearly as good as an OPP Ovation. The thinlines just sound, well, "thin" to me...too edgy and brittle. |
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Location: kansas | I added a TUSQ saddle to my Celebrity and retained the original piezo pickups.
I took a TUSQ blank and filed a rounded groove in the bottom of the blank to accommodate the wire that connects the individual piezos together. This left about a 1/16" of the saddle to rest on the front portion of the piezos and about the same in the back. I eliminated all of the existing shims with the addition of the TUSQ saddle that I custom filed to my desired string height. I added a TUSQ nut while I was at it. The added clarity, tone, sustain and volume made it worth my while... plus I can still plug in! |
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Ovations with bone bridges