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Posts: 425
Location: SE Michigan | Slipkid (Brad) and I will be playing a long set this week at a local club. There is decent a PA, and probably some rudimentary monitors. We have played there before and basically the host sets up the PA and then you are on your own. The problem is that it’s anyone’s guess if one of us will be too loud vocally or with the guitar. It is pretty hard to tell what is going on from the stage. When Brad and I practice we usually do it unplugged, we have become pretty good at adjusting to each other and the natural sound. I confess that I am not very good at adjusting my guitar’s preamp in mid-song.
I had this idea and wanted to see what you guys think: My idea is to set up four mic’s, one each for vocals and one each mounted lower for our guitars. This gives us the advantage of being able to self-modulate both vocally and on our guitars. In theory wouldn’t the mic’s pick up what is happening naturally when we play unplugged? If we did this we would be using regular dynamic SM-58’s, not condenser mic’s or anything fancy. It is a typical bar environment. I would probably use my deep bowl Adamas 1581 and Brad would likely use his Al Di Meola Custom Legend, also a deep bowl, possibly his UTE Adamas. Another reason for my wanting to try this is that I play with a pretty percussive style that seems to come out better when I play unplugged, my style can at times make my plugged in sound rather quacky due to the piezo effect.
Anyone tried a set up like this before? Thoughts?
Any other suggestions for controlling or setting up the mix without a reliable sound man at the board? |
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Posts: 4536
Location: Flahdaw | Don't plan on moving around much on stage....a foot in either direction completely changes the sound you are putting out. I sure couldn't do it. |
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| This is one for Temp. Without a proper mix to the monitors so you can hear yourselves, it'll be hard to tell what the house mix will sound like while you're playing. Not a good situation. No way you can go early and do a sound check? |
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Location: Flahdaw | Bring a friend with you. After one song (maybe two) sitting in the audience, they should be able to tweak your sound good enough to get by. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Go wireless and walk out into the middle of the room to check you mix. |
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Location: south east Michigan | We ain't got no friends.
After yesterdays rare attempt at a plugged in practice I realize (again), how much more there is to figure out and be concerned about. |
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Joined:
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Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Slipkid:
We ain't got no friends.
Then go wireless |
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Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | Hmmm.. that's the second time I heard that today.
That'd be great if we were bringing in and working off of our own PA but we have to work with the equipment that's there. |
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Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Brad, wireless doesn't depend on the PA. The transmitter plugs into your guitar and the receiver plugs into a channel on the PA, just as your guitar would if you were plugged in. A better situation is to have the receiver near you and run to the PA with (most likely) an XLR (mic) cable. But be warned - a cheap wireless unit will sound... well, cheap.
Here are some. VHF is ok if you keep it close to you and away from AC lines. UHF is better.
This would allow you to walk out into the room while playing to check the guitar mix.
Though it is hard to check your vocals when you're out in the room... |
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Location: Flahdaw | The problem is that Brad and Brian would have to go wireless for guitar AND vocals in order to walk out into the room, play gits, and sing. They would have to perform a number together out there to make sure the gits and vocals all sounded right to the audience, then walk back and forth from out there to the PA, tweak it, come back play some more, and so on. A logistical nightmare.
Can you buy a friend?
oops, just read Waskal's complete post (which I normally never do) and saw that he kind of covered this.... |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | db.....go buy a T-Shirt |
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Location: Scotland | If you are going to use mics on your guitars and you don't have a stellar sound system, killer mikes and a very competent sound engineer, then you are potentially going to get yourselves into a world of hurt. 58's just don't have the sensitivity, frequency response and output to do justice to acoustic instruments, and monitors, unless they are at least as good as the FOH speakers and with good defensive EQ, will halve your feedback threshold. Nice idea, but tricky to pull off. |
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Posts: 4536
Location: Flahdaw | Originally posted by stephent28:
db.....go buy a T-Shirt If I go wasting time shopping for shirts, who'd be here to give logical, intelligent advice? Weaser? |
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Location: south east Michigan | I WILL NOT... wear one of those Garth Brooks mics.... EVER!!
Until we do real gigs and have our own PA, we'll just have to do the best we can with what we have to work with.
I'd be nice to have someone tweeking knobs that knows how to tweek, but the bottom line is... it's just a couple of middle aged (sorry Brian) open mic dudes.
But I think Brian has a good idea. I think we (especially Brian) would sound much better, or at least more natural, with a miced guitar. |
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Location: closely held secret | Good luck with the gig, B&B. Mic'ing guitars in a bar setting might be more fun than you bargained for,
Originally posted by dark bar:
oops, just read Waskel's complete post (which I normally never do) I'll try to use smaller words with fewer syllables in the future. Just for you. |
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Location: Bluffton, SC | Originally posted by dark bar:
If I go wasting time shopping for shirts, who'd be here to give logical, intelligent advice? Weaser? Why that's just about the nicest thing he's ever said about me.
It could be the nicest thing ANYone has ever said about me.
He WAS talking about me, right...? |
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Location: closely held secret | sahr-kaz-uhm |
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Location: Bluffton, SC | Just love bursting bubbles, don'cha? |
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Posts: 15682
Location: SoCal | Your best bet is to bring a friend who can control volume and just try to set everything on the board flat and adjust on your guitars. Maybe just boost bass a little and leave everything else flat as well. The goal here is not to sound great, but just to sound decent (or maybe a bit better). Go into it knowing that the "sound" of the p.a. is going to be ok but not great, and instead, work on the sound of the music (which you can practice). |
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Posts: 5332
Location: Bluffton, SC | Hate to agree with the Big Guy in public but someone out front - almost ANYone with ears - is going to help a little. The rest don't bother with. If their PA is THAT weak, they probably aren't going to have a lot of discerning ears in the the audence anyway. Go put on a good show (like a bunch of us here have seen you guys do) and have fun.
They'll be screaming to have you back. |
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Posts: 1227
Location: Connersville, Indiana | in places like this, when there is not a reliable sound person on the PA, I have a SHS portable floor monitor with 5 inputs. It angles up and you connect your mic's and guitars into the inputs then connect the monitor into the PA's plug. It accepts Low and High impedance jacks. So If you wanted to you could plug all 4 mic's in and make adjustments on stage. It's almost like having a mini head to a PA system. It cost $350 at the time a few years back, and I know you don't have much time but you may want to look for something like this in the future. I believe Fender and Crate make similar products. You would just have to look at all the newest products available. Or the Acoustonic Amp has imputes for mic's and an output you could go to the PA with. and use the amp as a monitor. Just a thought |
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Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Why chance it? Pick up a good acoustic amp and use it as a stage amp/monitor, then send a feed to the house PA. This way, you control the tone and the sound engineer handles the blend and volume. A Genz Acoustic Pro has three XLR outputs, one for each channel and a third that combines the two channels. I'd bet most better acoustic amps have multiple balanced outputs. If you and Brad both used these types of amps, you could send four balanced signals to the house, two each for your guitar and mic. For smaller clubs hosting two balladeers on stools, you might not even need the house PA. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Yep, that would be a great way to do it. Most PA's may have reverb, but a decent acoustic amp will have chorus and delay options too. Tweak your sound at the amp and send it to the dry PA.
I played once where there was no monitor, just PA speakers at either side, facing the audience. It was ridiculous trying to hear yourself. |
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Posts: 4081
Location: Utah | Prof's suggestion is a good one.
For the quacky guitar that you want to mic, there are small instrument mounted mics which you could use. This doesn't address the whole house PA issue but it does get you back to plugged in guitars. |
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Location: closely held secret | Hey, if you follow BB's advice, at the very least you'll sound good to you, giving you the perception that you sound good to the house.
Instant confidence builder.
"What's the chicken wire for?" |
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Posts: 795
Location: Texas | T and Slip,
Plug in. Trust me...
In my experience:
1.Concert hall: killer PA, killer mics, competent soundman, soundcheck and quiet audience: ......................you can play acoustic without pluggin in....
2.Noisy bar with club PA, people talking and drinking:........ always PLUG IN, no contest. A nice amp (1 for each guitar) with a line out to the PA will give you more control to twick your tone and volume for a better overall sound.
Or, you could do both, use microphones and plug in, but the mics will only give you an extra headache.
Oh, and use Ovations........ :) |
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Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | Thanks for all the input everyone.
We'll fill you in on the audio successes and train wrecks.
I hate to go all diva, but I am going to insist, in a polite way, that I can hear myself on the monitor.
Mike... who runs the event is a great guy. Only thing, he's a volume guy. You know the kind. If it sounds good set at 5 it'll sound twice a good set at 10. After it gets to a point where you can't carry on a conversation it's just wasting electricity. Brian & I try to throttle him back but it is an effort. |
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Location: Flahdaw | So, are you gonna plug in or not?
I decided to re-read Brian's original post. He said there are some "rudimentary monitors." I'm not sure how we all got off on the "no monitor" tangent. Still, plugging into amps and using the line outs to the PA sounds smart. Good luck. (how are you doing with the Harmony box?) |
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Location: south east Michigan | Oh we'll plug in I'm sure. Such strong advise from Temp, Country Artist and others cannot be ignored.
So far so good with the harmonizer. It is much more natural and less "robo-voicey" than the other model I tried.
That being said, I'd be twice as happy if it did half as much. Lots-o-settings and options to deal with. |
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Location: Scotland | Brad, after seeing Bill's Helicon in SF I bought one. Absolutely love it. Easy to use. sounds great. |
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Location: south east Michigan | There's a pretty solid endorsement from a guy who has good ears... average hair... but good ears.
The guy at the desk next to me listens to country music a couple days a week. There is one song they are playing a lot. (sorry... don't know the name or the singer).... but it's very obvious he is using a harmonizer. Like a special effect in a movie, if you notice it, it's not good. |
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Location: south east Michigan | wait, wait, wait.
Hold on here.
Paul.. are using the harmonizer.... yourself??
I've never heard you sing.
But I would throw a couple bucks in the hat to hear you. |
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Location: Bluffton, SC | I'd throw a couple bucks in the hat for him to get new hair... |
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Location: Scotland | I can't sing for shit. Wish I could. The harmoniser is for when our regular percussionist, who sings backup is unavailable, as out stunt percussionist can't sing either. |
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Location: south east Michigan | I'd still throw down a few bucks.
.
Here's what I'd like.
A little row or panel of lights that I could clip on my mic stand that would tell me the status of the effects. It's distracting to have to look down at my feet to confirm if its on or off. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
I can't sing for shit. It's somewhat comforting that Temp doesn't excel in all aspects of music. Certainly has compensated well. |
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Location: Michigan | where and when are you playing ? GWB |
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Location: south east Michigan | Jacks Place at Emerald City Marina. 10-1/2(?)and Jefferson.
Supposed start tween 8 & 8:30.
We'll be playing first because I have to get home and get my beauty sleep. |
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November 2009
| Originally posted by Brian T:
Anyone tried a set up like this before? Thoughts?
Any other suggestions for controlling or setting up the mix without a reliable sound man at the board? Yes, I have done this, a long time ago. That's why I bought my first piezo equipped Ovation, because I didn't want to do it anymore.
It will work in a concert environment in which that audience is quiet and attentive, and would be enhanced by the presence of a competent soundman using the proper mics. In a bar situation, with no soundman, with a couple of dynamic mics on the guitars, I fear you'll either be underpowered or will be fighting howl. I wouldn't care to do it. The best suggestion I have is to plug in. |
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Posts: 9301
Location: south east Michigan | Just a follow-up.
For the first time I can remember, Mike (the volume guy) had the house levels just right.
I had some feedback problems that will be solved by an air lock plug. It keep my guitar level under what it should have been for both the monitors and the house.
I used the AD-II rather than the UTE thinking that the wood top would behave better than the carbon fiber. Not so. That spruce was dancing around like the pad of an orbital sander.
Lessons learned.
Since we only play like this a few time a year it's hard to get it down pat.
Blew thru a dozen songs straight then was asked for one more. All in all... a good night.
Thanks again for all the advise. |
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Location: closely held secret | Sounds like a good night. So you played plugged in? |
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Location: south east Michigan | oh yes |
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Location: south east Michigan | 
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I know, I know...
First question is... who's the chick?
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An old friend of Brian's |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Nice....a trio!
Let's hear some sound clips STAT! |
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Playing though a PA with mic'd guitars