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Posts: 4236
Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | I'm not using United Parcel Service anymore. PERIOD!
Another OFC'er contacted me about acquiring my Custom 1768 (basically a Nakao Elite in disguise). As I had offered it for sale several months ago, and I had an idea for a project, I let it go (though 'twas painful).
It arrived across country with a boomerang shaped finish crack beneath the bridge and a crack that went through an epaulette and the top beneath it. So I filed a claim of course.
And of course got the standard UPS response, "Declined." Their reason, as stated in their email:
--The merchandise was not adequately cushioned.
--The single wall box was not adequate to support the weight of the merchandise.
--Our inspection indicates that the damage did not occur during shipping.
Upon appealing the denial, I was told by a less-than-pleasant representative that the packaging did not meet UPS standards.
Would you all like to see the pictures I sent UPS of my packaging process? If you think United Parcel Service plays by its own rules, please pass this on. In the meantime, I have to look and see if this is worth going to small claims court.
Tuners de-tuned and foam around the headstock...
A factory Ovation box with cardboard forms inside to support the guitar...
Note that the guitar is supported in such a way that it does not touch the sides of the box...
"not addequately cushioned"...Indeed!
The top insert to keep the neck from moving...
The final fold of the top insert to keep the neck end from touching the top of the box...
Tape it exactly where the factory does to ship new guitars...
Label it suitcase-style so that it won't fall the long way on its face if it is tipped over...
UPS is stupid.... |
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Posts: 3619
Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | Wow!... I do that all the time also, and use UPS. I had received an Elite bass a few years ago that they left on the front porch in sub-freezing weather. It ended up having a foot-long finish crack in it. They DID however cover the cost of repairs. In my case I immediately took it to the UPS distribution center and showed them first hand. That way I could deal with them directly. Has anyone had any simular problems with Fedex? |
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Posts: 6996
Location: Jet City | Fedex is the only carrier to not dissappoint me in a major way so far.
And they're cheaper than UPS |
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December 2001
Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | call the claims department and ask to speak to a supervisor
tell them you shipped the guitar in a factory approved carton that was approved by UPS for use by Ovation.
Also tell them that you handed the package to the driver/counter/dropoff and it was inspected and insured and their authorized people approved it was ready to send.
they will fight you a couple of times.
if you get no where ask for an on sight inspection by a UPS supervisor. Usually these guys are ok and just want to get in and out and approve the guitar damage.
this is the worst time of year to ship instruments
believe me I know and I say a "hail Mary" for every one I drop off
good luck if I can be of any assistance call me |
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December 2001
Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | I just want to add that I got that double walled box bs too and from that point on I always ship guitars with extra cardboard slid between the guitar case and box that way you solve the no double wall BS. |
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Posts: 1673
Location: SoCal | Sorry Patch!
I have seen UPS turn down O&A damage claims with used Factory boxes... they are single walled and do not provide for UPS's suggested 2-inch minimum cushioning all around. Maybe UPS worked out the box size and construction with Ovation, the original shipper (on the initial use), but UPS does not grant that to us little end users (maybe Dealers have leeway). |
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Posts: 5567
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | Has anyone had any simular problems with Fedex?
Fed-Ex; UPS; USPS, Stand in line....
Sorry Patch... |
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Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | no dealer leeway noah. you just have to know how to talk to the insurances reps |
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Posts: 364
Location: Bellevue, Washington | Yeah this is a huge bummer on my part, as I was on the receiving end of this for this particular transaction (note the sig line!) The guitar was left in the case in the box for a few hours, and then removed from the box and left in its case for a few more hours to ensure that everything was brought up to room temperature before opening.
Upon opening the case I immediately noticed the boomerang crack, and while on the phone with Patch as I called him right away, noticed the crack in the epaulets and the severe crack underneath the bass-side epaulet that goes through the top. Upon a bit more inspecting I found a very nasty wave in the top of the guitar underneath the bridge that when you set a ruler against would make any guitar lover cry.
Very very disappointing indeed as this one was a very long time comin! Hopefully we'll be able to get it resolved :( |
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January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | I was going to post this over on the Wainright thread but I guess it can go here just as well.
Look at the bright side, at least ya'll got the guitar, I'm going into the 5th day of an overnight shipment. We haven't even gotten to the point of damage yet, shit, that's chapter two!
And yes, it's just not UPS, they are ALL the same.
Waiting For UPS by bill Kaman 12-6-10
I’m (G)waiting on UPS
It’s (C)causing me distress
There’s (D)nothing I can do I guess
I’m still (G)waiting on UPS
I (C)bought my(D)self a brand new (G)guitar
They (D)said they’d (C)ship near and (G)far
(C)Three day, (D)two day, (G)overnight
(D)However (C)you would (G)like
I(Em) said I need it real (C)soon
I’m (G)tired of playing this old Taylor in my(D)room
(Em)He said “No Problem, it will go (C)out today
By (G)12 o’clock tomorrow (D)you can sing and (G)play
So (C)here’s (C/B)my (Am7)song
I’m (G)waiting on UPS
It’s (C)causing me distress
There’s (D)nothing I can do I guess
I’m still (G)waiting on UPS
The next night I called up the store
I said there’s no guitar here at me door
The message said we’ll get back to you
After six there’s nothing we can do
Man I was pissed, to be treated like this
After all I spent on that guitar
Somebody’s gonna pay, I won’t let it lay
After I find out ‘zactly where things are
Here’s where they are
I’m waiting on UPS
Guess they lost my address
But no one will confess
Still waiting on UPS
The next day I went on line to see
Just where my guitar might be
Looked up the number and I was surprised
To see it down in Caroline
And it had been to Detroit
Oregon and LA
But I live on the East coast
They assured me it might get there today
Might get there today.
Still waiting on UPS
Getting tired of their BS
Just a few more days I guess
Still waiting on UPS
Now the (C)moral of the story, For (G)those of you who care
Is (D)if you got time to spare, (C)always (C/B)ship (Am7)by air(G)
(And you’ll be)
Waiting for UPS
It will make you a mess
But then, I digress
I’m still waiting for UPS |
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Posts: 364
Location: Bellevue, Washington | Beal, that is AWESOME! Once you get that new guitar, record that and post it! |
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December 2004
Posts: 1673
Location: SoCal | Great song Beal!
I would rather have seen you get the guitar overnight though... good luck with the shipment.
Al, how should the little guy respond to UPS when they say the reused Factory box does not meet UPS's Box Strength and 2-inch Cushioning Guidelines? |
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May 2006
Posts: 4236
Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | I'd like to say that RNickels has been a prince throughout this. He's had many suggestions, but made no demands. He couldn't be more supportive. Thanks R. |
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Posts: 497
Location: California | Sorry Patch. Hope they cover the damages. I have done the same and used UPS. My 1587 came around this time last year and it was packed in the same way you did. Vince did a good job packing the guitar. they get so much business that the stack every package they can on top of each other or what!
Hope Beal yours come with no problems. |
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Posts: 125
Location: Derry NH | HSC and well padded with shipping peanuts inside an O box?
Yeah, something stinks in Denmark and it ain't the cheese.
Hope you guys get satisfaction on this one. |
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December 2008
Posts: 1456
Location: Texas | I heard Beal was singing, so I came over here from the other thread to listen… ;) Nice job on the song Beal, hope your guitar arrives in good condition soon. Every time a guitar is in transit, it's nerve-racking.
Patch, you've got compelling photographic evidence that it was packed correctly. Hopefully they will do the right thing, but we'll still have to mourn the loss of a beautiful guitar. Yes, Mother can fix it, but how do you put a dollar value on mojo?
I have occasionally insisted that the UPS driver stand there and wait for my signature while I opened and inspected a carton that looked like it had been abused. (That's not a good idea if it's so cold out that you need to let the guitar acclimate to room temperature before opening it, though.) This strategy doesn't work with our local Fed-Ex drivers, because they leave "signature required" packages at the door all the time. (I can only assume that they forge signatures?)
Another alternative is to have the shipper "hold for pickup" and drive to their location to pick it up, then insist on opening and inspecting it before signing for it. If it's damaged, refuse delivery, then they have to send it back to the original shipper.
…the things we do for GAS… |
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November 2002
Posts: 3664
Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | UPS has my latest project on its way. Actually, I don't care as much about the guitar, as I do the case.......kinda perverse, I suppose. |
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Posts: 2793
Location: Atlanta, GA. | Was there anything obvious to the box that would suspect damage had occured? |
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Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | noah I do not know |
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Posts: 3111
Location: Nashville TN. | Kool song......
did it arrive yet? |
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May 2006
Posts: 4236
Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | The guitar is being sent back to me and should be here anytime. I'll take Al's advice and try to be nice one more time at the local level.
We'll see what happens. |
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Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | my overnight delivery took an extra 5 days. and now there are only two cracks in the finish, but they're really small, If you were Ray Charles you'd never see them. Or Ronnie Milsap even. |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | or Stevie Wonder... |
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Posts: 4236
Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | SUCCESS!!!
After two denials and weeks of (often daily) phone calls on my part, UPS finally told Crawford (the liability company) to give it up. Of course, that's not how it was explained to me, but that's what eventually happened.
I tried fruitlessly to maintain communications with Crawford to no avail. Last Friday, I contacted UPS directly to politely vent my spleen. I received a call today (the following Monday) from a UPS supervisor in Newark, NJ which is the hub my area routes through apparently.
Again, I firmly, yet professionally, explained the entire situation. He said he had no authority to overturn the original claim denial, but he would contact Crawford and get a more immediate "response" to my continuing efforts at communicating and disputing the original two denials.
The denials were overturned within the hour.
I have had damage claims before with the USPS. The red tape was convoluted and lengthy, but reasonably straightforward. Both claims were approved with only minor frustrations.
But this experience goes WAY beyond the pale of due diligence. The system is designed to wear you down to the point when you just cut bait. It is front-loaded with reps passing you like a hot potato, claims adjusters who speak rudely and use intimidating tones of voice to try and get yes/no answers to loaded questions; and claims supervisors who willfully ignore your messages until you get their secretary to confront them personally in their hallway and then speak to you with weary, condescending voices about the excellent training of their staff but they will "look into it". All of this is an effort to get you off the scent and slowly convince you over time that maybe you actually did miss a detail.
At least the actual UPS reps were meticulously courteous whenever I spoke with them. But the people at Crawford and Company have the professional and personal ethics of a robber baron. They will use their clout as soul arbitrator to beat and frustrate you until you concede defeat.
The red tape of the USPS is annoying for sure, but compared to the sheer, greedy malevolence of Crawford and Company, jumping through a few hoops to be certain all the proper federal forms have been filled out in triplicate isn't just cake, it's Tastycake.
Until something convinces me otherwise, I stand by the title of this thread.
In more uplifting news, Ryan has been a model of patience and perseverance thourghout. Thank you kindly Ryan. And at long last, I can remove this instrument, with a not-so-slight pang of regret, from my signature line.
The guitar will now head to New Hartford where I am certain it will be restored to new condition. So let me be the first to say:
This thread will become worthless without future pics!  |
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Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee | Gotta love a happy ending. |
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Posts: 1445
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada | This thread makes me nervous...I have a pretty significant guitar coming from California via FedEx Economy Air...and it's snappin' cold up here right now. |
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Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | FedEx is not UPS... But they break stuff and deny responsibility too...
I haven't forgotten!
Not trying to make you nervous Bluebird :p |
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January 2006
Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Originally posted by Patch:
The system is designed to wear you down to the point when you just cut bait. It is front-loaded with reps passing you like a hot potato, claims adjusters who speak rudely and use intimidating tones of voice to try and get yes/no answers to loaded questions; and claims supervisors who willfully ignore your messages until you get their secretary to confront them personally in their hallway and then speak to you with weary, condescending voices about the excellent training of their staff but they will "look into it". All of this is an effort to get you off the scent and slowly convince you over time that maybe you actually did miss a detail. They will use their clout as soul arbitrator to beat and frustrate you until you concede defeat. Claims adjustment training 101. |
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Posts: 3619
Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | "Claims adjustment training 101"...
Yep! ... Anticipate a problem by doing as patch did ... Take good pictures, document everything well, be persistent and firm but professional, and pray without ceasing. Always try to deal with the people face-to-face when ever possible. A concealed weapons permit seems to work well also (: |
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Posts: 4236
Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | Whoops!
I just realized I inadvertently crossed into the realm of religious discussions when I dubbed claims adjusters "soul arbitrators". They've enough power to put people through the ringer as it is without the authority to script the shipping of my eternal essence into the hereafter. :p
In the interests of proper grammarians and writing teachers everywhere, not to mention ministers and their colleagues, it should read "sole" arbitrator. :) |
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Posts: 8307
Location: Tennessee | Originally posted by Patch:
... it should read "sole" arbitrator. :) If the shoe fits... |
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Location: closely held secret | Well played. |
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Location: Flahdaw | I don't know....I consider Clarence Thomas a "soul" arbitrator |
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Posts: 4081
Location: Utah | Soul Arbitrator would be a good album title. I think of Clarence Thomas more as one of The Supremes. |
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Posts: 4394
Location: East Tennessee | If Fed Ex and UPS were to merge, would they call it Fed UP? |
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May 2006
Posts: 4236
Location: Steeler Nation, Hudson Valley Contingent | Originally posted by Capo Guy:
If Fed Ex and UPS were to merge, would they call it Fed UP? Nope....F'd UP. |
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Posts: 370
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba CANADA | I'm glad you finally got the upper hand. You are right that there is a concious effort made to grind you down. The only way to stay ahead of them is to make your (future) claim bulletproof.
If I have to ship a guitar now, Anywhere inside the case that will allow gets bubble wrap... pictures... guitar goes inside of small guitar box, with popcorn... more pictures... the inside of bigger guitar box, yet MORE pictures... then the whole box (and I mean EVERY square inch is covered in clear packing tape (I find this makes the box moisture proof and gives it more rigidity and is less susceptible to crushing).
Then the labeling FRAGILE on EVERY surface, orientation marks on EVERY surface and then the headstock end is marked 'DO NOT STAND ON END... OTHER SIDE DOWN'... Then all of the marking is covered with yet more tape (so they can't say the labelling fell off. Then MORE pictures.
Let's see those bastards deny a claim on a package that looks like that. I would laugh in their faces!!
:D |
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October 2005
Posts: 4081
Location: Utah | I flew to South Dakota to hand carry my latest purchase home, due to the frequency of these disaster stories. The cost of my trip was the same as overnight delivery would have been, with the bonus of spending a couple of hours with Alison in beautiful Hot Springs. |
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January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | Every one of these shipping services are terrible. They all break things and loose them and then deny, delay, deny, delay, deny...
But now how many pakages do they move every day?
And how many do they smash?
truth be told, a pretty small percentage.
So just take precautions and let them roll. |
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Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 2985
Location: Sydney, Australia | Originally posted by Avatar4550:
I'm glad you finally got the upper hand. You are right that there is a concious effort made to grind you down. The only way to stay ahead of them is to make your (future) claim bulletproof.
If I have to ship a guitar now, Anywhere inside the case that will allow gets bubble wrap... pictures... guitar goes inside of small guitar box, with popcorn... more pictures... the inside of bigger guitar box, yet MORE pictures... then the whole box (and I mean EVERY square inch is covered in clear packing tape (I find this makes the box moisture proof and gives it more rigidity and is less susceptible to crushing).
Then the labeling FRAGILE on EVERY surface, orientation marks on EVERY surface and then the headstock end is marked 'DO NOT STAND ON END... OTHER SIDE DOWN'... Then all of the marking is covered with yet more tape (so they can't say the labelling fell off. Then MORE pictures.
Let's see those bastards deny a claim on a package that looks like that. I would laugh in their faces!!
:D Then they'll charge you a fortune (or refuse the package totally) because it is too big. It's Catch 22, if you pack it the way they want, they won't ship it. If you don't pack it the way they want, they won't accept liability. |
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Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 1445
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada | I have a guitar that left California for eastern Canada last Friday via FedEx Air Economy (at $204.00 fees, that seems like and oxymoron). I did a search with the tracking number and now see it is already all the the way to...Austin, Texas!?? which is pretty much in the fair opposite direction.
So far I'm very, very impressed. Give me good ole USPS International Priority any day. |
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United Parcel Service Stinks Out LOUD!