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Location: Michigan | does anyone in the o.f.c. own a steel guitar ? if so is it something that if you play a regular guitar o.k. that you would pick up and play decent with a bit of practice , or is it a whole different animal and it would be like starting over on a new instrument.
i really like the stretching sounds that you can make the notes do with one . my favorite is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9ohBMozCzI
GWB |
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Location: Scotland | Lap steel is very different to standard guitar. It's also very different to upright slide guitar, so while it is a guitar-like instrument it involves an entirely different approach and a entirely new set of techniques. Bar technique is very important, right-hand technique equally so. Gilmour's technique in both respects should not be used as benchmark, as both would be condsidered somewhat unconventional. Check out David Lindley and Greg Leisz for starters, Ben Harper too, there are a ton of others. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | what he said.. |
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Location: Denver | It's a different ball game for me too. I have been looking at one at the local music go round but can't pop the 700 bucks. I will check out Lindley, Leisz and Harper. Thanks for the names and for now I will just work on some slide.. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I love the sound of a pedal steel and really wish I'd learned to play one. |
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Location: On the Coast - Halfway between SF & OR | A pedal steel is a completely different animal with a steep learning curve, but for just fooling around, a lap or Hawaiian steel is a fairly simple instrument and you shouldn't have a problem picking up some basic tunes.
I started with square neck resonators and moved to pedal steel long before I ever picked up a regular guitar, so I can't say whether being a guitar player would be a help or hindrance. I still can't play a guitar worth a damn, and I've completely given up trying to learn slide as the whole process just seems counter intuitive to me, but understanding the basic principles of a stringed instrument already should make the steel process go more smoothly for you.
I would suggest a 6-string lap steel with nickel semi-flat strings (E-7th tuning) to get you started. If you find you enjoy it, the "proper" techniques can always be learned or you can just play like Gilmour (which sounds pretty good to me).
National Single & Tricone Resonators,
Various National & Rickenbacker Lap Steels,
1950 Fender Dual 8 Pro, Sho Bud Professional, Sho Bud LDG |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by fletcher:
I would suggest a 6-string lap steel with nickel semi-flat strings (E-7th tuning) to get you started. If you find you enjoy it, the "proper" techniques can always be learned or you can just play like Gilmour (which sounds pretty good to me). As someone who actually performs the vast majority of my live shows on acoustic and electric lap steel guitars I would recommend that you ignore Fletchers advice, especially as he found the instrument "counter-intuitive" and has given up.
On a 6 string guitar lap guitar a straight major tuning is all you need to get started. There is a lot of tuition material out there for high-bass G, (GBDGBD) which is pretty much the standard "Dobro "tuning and is ideal for country, folk and bluegrass styles. For rock and blues any of the 1 5 1 3 5 1 tunings such as D or E are probably a little easier to get to grips with. Tunings which contain a 6th, a dominant/minor/major 7th or anything other than a major triad are not recommended for beginners and are better suited to guitars with 7 or more strings. As for technique, do yourself a favour and get it right from the off. Flatwounds on lap steel produce less bar chatter but sound awful and have poor sustain, so go with regular electric guitar strings, though correct gauges for specific tuning/scale length is a consideration. |
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Location: Michigan | steel guitar , laptop steel guitar ,
pedal steel guitar , 6 string ,7 string ,10 string
wow a whole new world of guitars .
paul , fletcher it sounds like you both play one. i just really like the sounds that david gilmore steve howe neil youngs band can do with these.
my thought was if it is an instrument that i would have a good head start on learning to play i wouldn't mind making an investment in one . i just did not realize the different types styles pedals ect , ect that are out there . what do the pedals do ? i guess i will take a trip to the local music store here and talk with them and see if they also offer lessons . your input is helpful to me so keep it coming . can $400.00 get you a decent one . who makes the good , better and best models .thanks GWB. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | 
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I'm kinda partial to this bad boy! |
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Location: On the Coast - Halfway between SF & OR | To explain to those of a pedantic nature, I was using the term “slide” guitar to refer to a guitar played in an upright (vertical) position using a “bottle neck” tube-type device on a finger of the left hand and the term “steel” guitar to refer to a guitar played in a horizontal position using a bar-type steel in the left hand.
I still play “steel” guitar (square neck resonators, 6 & 8 string lap steels, single and dual-neck pedal steels).
I never got the hang of playing “slide” guitar as I stated.
Concerning 6-string lap steels (looks to be what Gilmour is playing);
Semi flat strings do produce less bar chatter and actually can be a bit more mellow sounding. As for sounding “awful”, I’m sure anyone who has ever heard Jerry Byrd's work would disagree.
Tunings can be whatever you like depending on the material played and what strings you have on hand. A-major, E-7th tunings are my preference, others I play with swear by C-6th. As the saying goes, “There is no ideal lap steel tuning, only players who spend their lives searching for it.”
GWB, if you would like to try basic lap steel, I’d be glad to loan you an old 6-string Oahu for a while. Just let me know. And yes, you would be welcome to take Paul’s advice, change the strings to “regular electric guitar strings” tuned to GBDGBD and work on perfecting your technique. Just be sure to let me know what that perfect technique is once you learn it.
In the meantime, check out Kaki King’s “Gay Sons Of Lesbian Mothers” video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI9ke2Ju7XY&NR=1&feature=fvwp |
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Location: Scotland | Check out the Recording King lap steels, loosely based on the Montgomery Ward Roy Smeck model of the 40's. They can be had for under $200 and are a lot of instrument for the money. I sell a ton of them.
There are countless tunings, my recommendations were based not on personal preference, but on what are the most common and useful for contemporary styles. Tunings such as C6, A6 and the like tend to be the choice for Hawaiian and early Country styles and are ideal for that
Jerry Byrd is an absolute master, but I suspect that style or tone is not what GWB is aiming at.
RK Lap Steel |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I set up an old 1966 Harmony Bobkat for lap steel using an alloy lap steel nut given to me by Matt Smith. The small scale, high strings and funky pickups on the old Harmony work well. I still wish I could play it as well as they do. |
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Location: Michigan | great advice , and i appreciate the offer fletcher of trying yours out but I think I am going to the music store this weekend and look at some .
that kaki sound is awesome and that is kind of similar to what i am looking for (the i don't know if the wording is right ) but the obscure sound that gilmore and kaki are creating .i am sure that the amplification settings are mostly the reason for it but that is why i am asking .
is there a country model verses a rock & roll one or are they all pretty much the same and the amp will give it the sounds? also what do the pedals do on the guitars? GWB |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Tuning tends to dictate the style
Open "E" is rock/blues
C6/Am7 seems to be popular for Western Swing and Hawaiian
Open "G" is Dobro style, etc, etc
The good players can pretty much play any style with any tuning. |
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| Originally posted by stephent28:
The good players can pretty much play any style with any tuning. Having seen Paul sit down with a bunch of strangers and play absolutely killer slide no matter what the genre, including stuff I've asked him to back me on that I know he didn't know, I'll agree 100% with that. |
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Location: closely held secret | Yup. Wot the g8r man said. |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by guitarwannabee:
also what do the pedals do on the guitars? GWB First came the electric 6-string lap steel in the early 30's. There were countless tunings so in order to increase the versatility of the instruments a few things happened; extra strings were added to allow 7th, 9th and 11th tunings, and extra necks were addedd (sometimes up to 4) to allow multiple tunings on one instrument. Then in the early 40's Gibson came out with the Electraharp, which was a version of their mutli-neck Console Steel with a complex pedal mechanism which allowed multiple tunings to be acheived on a single or pair of necks. Then in the early 50's a steel player called Bud Issacs played on a Webb Pierce song called "Slowly" His playing on that song was the first recorded example of the pedals being used while the guitar was being played (rather than to change to an alternative tuning between songs) This created the classic and typical pedal steel sound of notes in chords changing while the chords sustain, and started a revolution in instrument design, tunings, pedal mechanisms and playing techniques. The "classic" modern pedal steel set-up is an all-pull mechanism, twin 10-string necks in C6 and E9 tunings, but the instrument and it's players are constantly evolving so there are a ton of variations, such as keyless singleneck 12 strings and a bunch of other stuff that I've lost touch with since I decided my life was way too short for Pedal Steel guitar. It's an amazing instrument, but the learning curve is incredibly steep. Also every serious pedal steel player I've ever know has been slightly unhinged, not in a bad way, but definately a little loopy. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
Also every serious pedal steel player I've ever know has been slightly unhinged, not in a bad way, but definately a little loopy. Funny how you completely buck that trend..... |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Originally posted by dark bar:
Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
Also every serious pedal steel player I've ever know has been slightly unhinged, not in a bad way, but definately a little loopy. Funny how you completely buck that trend..... |
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| Temp sets the bar. |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by dark bar:
[/qb] Funny how you completely buck that trend..... [/QB]
Hey, I said Pedal steel players. I gave that up years ago. Lap Steel players are relatively normal. |
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Location: SoCal | Hey Stephen, any way you can post an even larger picture? |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | gee Moody.....great contribution to the thread.
+ it's lifesize.....wanted to show it in all of it's glory.
now go practice that left hand technique. |
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Location: On the Coast - Halfway between SF & OR | GWB, let me try a “slightly unhinged, little loopy” answer to your question as Paul's history lesson was a bit too Wikipedia for me.
The pedals and knee levers on a pedal steel are used to change tone – tightening or relaxing one or more strings in combination to specific tuned notes, thus changing the instrument’s tuning during a performance.
Each pedal and knee lever when activated, changes specific strings a specific number of steps up or down. So one pedal may change the strings tuned to B to a C# when activated, another may change a G# strings to A, and pushing a knee lever to the left would change the E strings to F while pushing the same lever to the right would change the E strings to D#. How high or low a string changes is determined during the set-up by the player. There are some basic set-ups like those noted here, but a player can pretty much set up the guitar any way he wishes.
So your left foot activates the string pedals (usually 4-8 pedals), your right foot activates the volume pedal (used mainly to create additional sustain) and your knees move the knee levers right, left or sometimes up all to create an assortment of differing tones while playing.
Most pedal steel players use amps that produce a clean sound and rely on the guitar to produce the effects. |
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Location: On the Coast - Halfway between SF & OR | Jeez, rereading my last post makes the pedal steel seem more complex than it really is. Like any instrument, it simply takes time and practice.
And don't get the idea that a pedal steel is somehow "better" than a lap steel. It takes a really dedicated professional to play a lap steel well, and my hat is always off to those who can.
There's an inside joke among pedal steel players that when we run out of talent, we simply add more pedals.
Lap steel players don't have that option. |
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Location: Scotland | "A little too wiki" Indeed. Dude, I've forgotton more than you've ever known. I don't need to, and never have referenced wiki to make a valid post here.
The pedals change PITCH, not tone. Two concepts that while related are completelty different. If you are going to contribute at least make the information accurate. Maybe you should have checked wikipedia. |
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Location: On the Coast - Halfway between SF & OR | Paul, I was just fooling around with the "Wiki" comment. I don't doubt for a moment that you know more about most things than I do and never meant to imply that you needed to reference wiki before posting. I meant only that your comment could be used as a wiki summary of steel guitar history.
I, as you pointed out, really shouldn't be posting since I don't have the training and education necessary. I just get caught up in the conversation and want to join in. I really should know better. |
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Location: Michigan | well i went and bought a rogue #ea 3 slide guitar for $100.00 @ musicians friend . yeah i know it is a cheap low end unit but if it proves to be to much for me to learn i will only have a small investment in it,hey i started with a ovation cs257 and now i own a couple adamas so i can only go up in quality on a steel guitar.
what it didn't come with was a slide .
now i have the next question , a bunch of different choices ceramic,steel,glass,brass,rings?
suggestions and reasons what would be the difference in them as far as the sound goes.
any of them easier to use then the others for a virgin steel player? GWB |
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Location: On the Coast - Halfway between SF & OR | GWB - Congrats on getting the rogue, I'm not familiar with that model but I'm sure you'll have a good time with it.
As for which steel (or slide as you put it) to use, I'm sure Paul will come along soon and tell you the correct model. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Matt Smith showed up at Amelia with an assortment of glass/china slides in different colors and patterns which he was offering for sale. I ended up with several, plus I have one of clear glass (I think these are referred to as "bottle slides"), several that may be some form of clear plastic or glass-like resin, and I think I have a metal slide of some sort somewhere. For me, the glass models all sound pretty much the same. The difference is in the shape and how it fits my finger. |
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| The Nunwells that Matt had are very nice. I don't play lap slide, so I don't know how well they'd work for that, but I really like mine for regular slide. Their mass takes a little getting used to, but that winds up giving you a better touch. I did see both Matt and Temp play lap slide with Nunwells as well as other types of glass and metal slides, so I guess they'll work fine. Of course, both Matt and Temp are slide virtuosos. |
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Location: Michigan | i went over to guitar center today and tried out 4 slides . i was caught off guard when the sales guy said lets try out all of them and walked over to their practice amp and plugged in a les paul copy and brought over 4 different slide bars glass,ceramic,brass and chromed steel and opened all of them up and let me screw around with all of them.i choose this one
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Shubb-Pearse-SP3-Guitar-Steel-Slide-364...
fletcher : the lap steel guitar i got was this one
http://folk-instruments.musiciansfriend.com/product/Rogue-EA3-Lap-S...
it is a cheap one but it had great ratings
( probably because of the price ) but i have to say i am impressed with what i see so far .
it sounds great through my roland ac 60 .
i hope that i can keep a positive attitude learning something totally new.
temp or fletcher any thoughts you guys have on learning or tunings go i am all ears . i am looking for the easiest way to go from a 6 or 12 string guitar and grow into a lap steel . GWB |
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Location: Orlando, FL | Hey GWB. Congrats on the purchase. Lap steel is a lot of fun. Start out with open G. It's a really easy tuning to start with. After you get the hang of it give open D a try. Then check out open E. Between these tunings you can play just about anything. You'll probably find one tuning you like better than the others after a while. I use a bar just like the one you got on mine.
Just pick out some blues songs with a distinctive riff, figure the riff out and learn some fills around the changes. Even if you're not a big blues guy it's a great place to start. There's only 3 chords so you can start with the chord tones and find the little fills that work at each chord position and you always know where you are going next.
Good luck and have fun! |
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Location: Michigan | this weekend i should have a chance to start to set the tunings up and try and make some sounds with it . so far the last two nights i have just made sure that the electronics and everything works on it . the small amount of goofing around with it has caused the wife to get as far away from me that the house allows. im sure that she will learn to get closer to me as i progress in learning this incredible interesting instrument.GWB |
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Location: Michigan | lessons start on the 25th at a local music store.i talked with the instructor today and told him the style of music i was into learning ( gilmore , howe , neil young ) and he says he can get me going in that direction.i have never in my life had a musical lesson so this should be an interesting avenue for me . $14.00 for 1/2 hour lesson , that sounds very reasonable to me.
i can't imagine only making $14.00 a 1/2 hour and have to listen to people like me make bad noises on instruments for a living.i am hoping to find a new interest in playing again.i am getting into a bit of a slump staying interested in 6 & 12 strings this year.maybe its the fact that i do not think that i am improving any more with them. GWB |
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Location: Michigan | this new lap steel experience is like landing on the lost island but it is a lot of new fun to playing a different guitar. GWB |
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Location: On the Coast - Halfway between SF & OR | I was a bit worried when I read your "I Quit" titled post until I saw the video.
Glad to hear you're sticking with it and enjoying the experience. |
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steel guitar playing question