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Location: Nashville TN. | Word amoung players at Connecticut Open Mics is that there NO American Made Ovation Guitars coming out of New Hartford. If the power that be are listening its time for tour and you need change that preception before its too late. |
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Posts: 4413
| Is a preception any relation to a conception, contraption or a perception?
If you mean has anyone noticed that Fender have killed Ovation USA, then yes we noticed it the day Fender took over. Fender don't do niche markets. They can live with expensive boutique markets - Jackson, Hamer, Adamas, but they don't do niche.
Fender have killed Ovation USA. Live with it. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Which is odd, 'cos Fender Acoustics are such a driving force in the marketplace. |
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| Absolutely - all you Martin freaks, have you never played a Telecoustic, a Stratosonic or a Jagaspatic?
Fender rule and don't you forget it. |
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Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Not "bad perception"... Truth!
Unless you custom order, any new Ovation is import crap.
I saw that coming a mile away...
So stock-up on Pre-Fender stickers! :p
 
BTW-- During "The Tour" they only had Adamas, Celebrity's and a TX with an iDea preamp.
So there ain't Production USA Ovations being shown on the tour...
But you could custom order anything you like!
(except Snakeskin Thunderbolts or Flame T's) |
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Location: Nashville TN. | The idea is a custom shop but if people think its completely gone. Its not! You order ANY Ovation you want from New Hartford.
That not good to have the idea that its completely gone setting in.
They making more Ovations than Hamers....
They are still making those that are ordered.
I saw classics Mellisa Kaki Mando Al Demealo and other LX models being made last summer.
Miquel, Damon, and Bob were there and saw it.. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Do your best to word the spread |
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Location: Nashville TN. | I have been....but think a youtube tour or real tour would do much to change that impression. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | When I worked at the Truck Stop, I had my 650 Yamaha parked out by the diesel pumps...
This old trucker asked me if that was my bike.
I said "Yes" and we talked about motorcycles.
He had a Yamaha V-Star...
Y'see, he wanted a Harley and didn't care about the price. He could afford it.
He went to the Harley dealer and picked-out a new Electra-Glide and wanted to pay CASH!
They told them that he could Order the bike now, but he would have to wait Six Months to get it.
He told them, "I am 67 years-old! Nobody is guaranteed six months on this Earth!"
He then walked across the street to the Yamaha dealer and rode-out with a Full-Dress V-Star.
The moral of this story is... Being able to Custom Order a USA Ovation is not the Same as being able to just buy one of the Rack. (Or have a New one delivered to your door in 10 days or less)
Or to Know that the people who made your store-bought guitar are just a phone call away.
So... NO USA PRODUCTION means No USA Ovations to most people. |
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Location: NJ | and how many of those embarrassing number of guitars were purchased NEW?
????????????????????????? |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Originally posted by alpep:
and how many of those embarrassing number of guitars were purchased NEW?
????????????????????????? Only seven of my current inventory...
And one of them is a Chinese Celebrity! :eek:
(Keep it next to my Indonesian Squier by Fender)
7½ if you count the Sweet T that I sold to someone, and bought back from someone else.
But a few that I bought New in my wealthier daze are scattered around the OFC.
But I think any other USO's that I purchase will be from the Used Market. |
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Location: NJ | seven out of 40?
the point is you cannot keep a company alive by buying the used products.
don't get me wrong I lament that ovation is only currently a custom shop but the bottom line is supply and demand and corporations know that very well |
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Location: SoCal | Al, that's a tough point to deal with, but it's reality. Very very few people on this board (of 8500, or thereabouts, people) were buying NEW Ovations or Adamii. We pushed people to buy the older used models, and for a lot of us, that's what we bought.
Of the 11 O's & A's that I own, only 2 were bought new, and one of those was a solid custom shop baby and the other was special ordered with custom features.
The bottom line is that we are as responsible as anybody else for Ovation going overseas...... |
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Location: Tidal Mudflats of Virginia | About half I've had were bought new and half of those from my favorite Adamas dealer. However, all but two of them have moved on to others in the OFC and been traded/replaced by older discontinued models that fit the sound I was look'n for. I figure the $15K I've pushed out to the business side should have helped keep them going...
T'n'T |
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Location: Utah | I am more concerned that all new O's are lesser quality than the USA made models of a few years ago. Put my 6778LX against a new Elite and the difference in craftsmanship is obvious. It seems that FendOvation believes in the low cost low price business model. This is going to cheapen the brand image.
Never mind that I can order an expensive but beautiful custom order from New Hartford, nobody walking into GC or Mom & Pop is going to see it. They'll only see Celebrities and foreign built O's which are essentially indistinguishable from each other and not as refined as the US built instruments were.
Customers looking for a "really nice guitar" aren't going to think Ovation. And they don't know about Adamas because none are ever hanging on the wall in a music shop. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I'm as guilty as anyone with about 25% new vs used, but the first and last were new and 3 of the new ones cost more than all the used ones combined.
When I joined this site in 2005, there was a ton of enthusiasm over the 2005 Collector and the new contour bowl, but of the 5 Ovation dealers in this area, none had them. One dealer didn't know what Adamas was and told me they had USA Ovations, but didn't. Another salesman said he preferred Ibanez, but all he had to compare with was Celebrity SSBs. One of those dealers closed and another guitar store that carried mostly Martins and Taylors, but also Fenders and Guilds, also closed.
I understand the competition with foreign labor costs, but I also think the marketing of Ovations dropped significantly about the time of the sale to Fender and the downturn in the economy. That hurt the US sales. If there's nothing up the product line to move up to, the only product that will sell is the high volume, low margin product. My last new Ovation may be the 2010 Collector, although I still have a couple old ones on my want list and that Wood Topped Adamas was enticing.
BTW, Al had a 2010 Collector last I heard, if anyone wants to stop lamenting the extinction and grab the last of the breed. |
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Location: Nashville TN. | 9 of mine were bought new.... Still have 7
I perfer to buy new.
But who knows how many more I might have impulsed bought if there USA guitars in stores |
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Posts: 6996
Location: Jet City | I bought my first several guitars new, the first being in '83, an Ovation UKII. My first acoustic electric was an Ovation as well. I've recently bought a new Custom Elite LX that was hanging in the store here locally (though I believe it was only brought in due to the roadshow coming through).
Mark and PEZ make the point here. The bottom line is that it USED TO BE you could visit a store, try one out, then buy it if you like it. It's a very hard thing to shell out the price for a new guitar you have never had a chance to try out. It's much less of a risk to buy a used piece, see if it works for you, and either keep it, or sell it off for roughly the same $$ you had into it.
If there was a 2074LX in store, I probably would have bought one already. but the nearest new one I found (when they were still being made here) was in San Diego, 1600 miles away. Unfortunately now, and most likely due to lack of marketing and visibility at stores, I only know of 1 single OFCer who has one, so I can't even buy a used one now.
Bottom line... If they were in stores, more would be sold... period, end of story. You can't expect to sell brand new high-end musicial instruments on eBay and online music dealers only and expect to do any volume whatsoever.
The only new guitar I've EVER bought sight unseen was from Al, the Adamas re-issue, and that's only because it was sold at a "used" price, and the last of an era. |
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Location: SoCal | And that's the other side of the problem. I may have bought a number of my guitars used, but that was because they were better than the Ovations (and very very few Adamii) that I could find in stores over the last 20 years.
I bought my 1537 used in a Guitar Center even though the salesman kept pushing a cedar topped Elite on me. It was easy to tell which guitar was better. And in the last 10 years, almost all the new Ovations in stores are Celebs. You can't buy what you can't find.
Catch 22...... |
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Location: closely held secret | The real question is, will anyone besides us even notice that there are no longer any US made Ovations in store? As Moddy said, it's been hard to find one in stores for quite a while. |
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Location: Rego Park, NY, | a bad preception..... its setting in
PEZ, when you take the blue pill you are supposed to call a doctor if it last for more than four hours. OH wait I thought you did one of those typo boo boo's again. I thought you meant to type PRESCRIPTION
Phil Wong RPh. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I understand the advantages and benefits of USA Ovations versus overseas models from a historic perspective. The same argument could be made about televisions, automobiles and clothing, among most other products. That is, products made in the latter half of the 20th century in the USA were generally perceived to be of better value than products made overseas. This perception began changing in the 1980's and 1990's, and I don’t believe we can expect it to reverse anytime soon given the current trends in economic conditions, social demographics, and governmental policies. The reason is because our definition of value has changed.
Inasmuch as there is little question that overseas factories can produce a better $400 guitar than USA factories, is there really a question of whether or not they could produce a better $3,000 guitar as well? Probably not. Look what Lexus did to the luxury car market in the 1980's. Look where the Korean Hyundai now ranks in the extremely cometitive mid-size sedan market (No. 1). As long as the consumer’s primary definition and measurement of value remains so intensely price-driven, where the cost of labor continues to be all-important, then overseas products will continue to be selected over their domestic competition, even more so as the level of overseas quality control continues to improve in the future.
Where value is measured by brand recognition, superior materials, specifications and/or performance, without regard to price, and without sacrificing the expectations of the labor force, then those factories still compare well on the global markets, USA-based or otherwise. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Of the 4 Adamaii that I still own, 3 of them were purchased new.
I have sold off 7 other Adamaii of which 4 were purchased new.
All my woodtop Ovations were purchased used except my very first one back in the 70s. |
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Location: SoCal | Stephen, of the guitars you bought new, how many were from stores and how many were thru Al, and how many were custom shop builds?
Prof, don't forget that Taks are built in Asia (along with Gretch) and they're pretty damned good guitars.
But I'd still like to see high end O's and A's in guitar shops.... |
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Location: NJ | I still have a good supply of NEW and nearly new guitars.
not anyone beating my door down. |
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Location: Utah | Our local Pop shop seems to sell entry level Applause and Celebs without much problem. He carries several small sizes for the younger students, too. Those customers, though, can't do what my daughter did, moving from a 3/4 size Applause to a new USA built 1778 Red Flame. That 1778RF directly led to two of Sara's friends buying new USA built O's, plus several that Sara sold to customers at GC when the salesmen didn't know squat about what was hanging on their wall!
Perhaps most buyers of TX and AX won't notice the shortcuts in materials and workmanship, and will find the guitars compare favorably with their price competitors. Most of those competitors are imports, too. The playing field is not under Ovation's control. I get that part of the price war.
And I am glad that the craftsmen in New Hartford are still employed and are still making great guitars, whether they carry the Adamas or Guild nameplate.
FWIW, I've purchased new 1 Applause, 3 Ovations, 1 Adamas. The used purchases are guitars I could not afford to buy new, like the Hamer, or guitars no longer available such as the Patriot, Viper, and Preacher Deluxe. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
Prof, don't forget that Taks are built in Asia (and they're pretty damned good guitars). Considering a recent purchase, I'm not likely to soon forget this.
Even so, you make an excellent point here, Paul. A $3,000 custom Takamine from Japan compares favorably with a $4,000 to $6,000 custom from a USA shop. Although the price thresholds may be a bit higher, the cost/benefit analysis behind the decision to choose the Tak instead of a more expensive Martin or Collings from the US is no different than what many other Joe Consumers go through when choosing a guitar.
For many consumers, consideration of price comes first and name brand is second. For instance, consider the last time you bought a small kitchen appliance. For me, I went to the local discount retailer, looked at a half dozen models on the shelf, all with brand names I recognized and simlar features, then I chose a model based on what I thought was good value for the price. When making this point in class, I ask my students the following question: How many of you brand-shop for gasoline? Most students don't, but then a small number usually raise their hand. I then ask them directly if they'd still buy that same gasoline if a different brand of gas was selling for a nickel less per gallon across the street? Rarely do they stick to their favorite brands. If they do, there's is always a price break where they'll switch to the less expensive brand.
My point is that when buying a product, the first consideration for most consumers is price. Once the price is determined, we then go out and search for what we consider to be the best value for the price. Cost or price thus becomes the primary driver of our definition of quality/value, with all other factors taking on secondary importance.
This point may be somewhat more difficult to make on this forum with respect to guitars because, after all, we are all committed to the Ovation/Adamas brand. That's why I raise the kitchen appliance and gasoline product examples. Chances are, we are not so committed to kitchen appliance and gasoline brands as we are to Ovation and Adamas guitar brands. |
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Posts: 15680
Location: SoCal | Originally posted by alpep:
I still have a good supply of NEW and nearly new guitars.
not anyone beating my door down. Yeah, but that's only 'cause we don't like you (we buy from you because we like Sue)...... |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | If I'm reading this correctly, we all have Al's permission to beat his door down next time we're in New Jersey, even if we only want to see Sue. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
Stephen, of the guitars you bought new, how many were from stores and how many were thru Al, and how many were custom shop builds?
Well, the twins were a custom shop order so thats 2
The OFC2 was a custom shop order so there is 3
The slothead was obviously used so that is 3 out of the 4 I still have.
Out of the other 7, I probably bought 4 through Al and the other 3 were most likely impulse buys or low ball offers on ebay that I did not expect to be accepted......
I currently have a Takamine Madi/Adi on order through Al. |
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Posts: 3111
Location: Nashville TN. | Originally posted by Damon67:
I bought my first several guitars new, the first being in '83, an Ovation UKII. My first acoustic electric was an Ovation as well. I've recently bought a new Custom Elite LX that was hanging in the store here locally (though I believe it was only brought in due to the roadshow coming through).
Mark and PEZ make the point here. The bottom line is that it USED TO BE you could visit a store, try one out, then buy it if you like it. It's a very hard thing to shell out the price for a new guitar you have never had a chance to try out. It's much less of a risk to buy a used piece, see if it works for you, and either keep it, or sell it off for roughly the same $$ you had into it.
If there was a 2074LX in store, I probably would have bought one already. but the nearest new one I found (when they were still being made here) was in San Diego, 1600 miles away. Unfortunately now, and most likely due to lack of marketing and visibility at stores, I only know of 1 single OFCer who has one, so I can't even buy a used one now.
Bottom line... If they were in stores, more would be sold... period, end of story. You can't expect to sell brand new high-end musicial instruments on eBay and online music dealers only and expect to do any volume whatsoever.
The only new guitar I've EVER bought sight unseen was from Al, the Adamas re-issue, and that's only because it was sold at a "used" price, and the last of an era. Agreeded btw I did not want to try my first new Ovation. Pretty woman who worked at the store asked me to try it.... the Thunderbolt I had new 1989.
They missed to sell guitars because they were not in store. Had there been a new deep no cut away Adamas or Custom Legend in stores I would not own the Martin D-28 or the Guild D25.
I am not keen on buying blind....
I did that USA Standard Elite with conture...
I hated it once I had it.
Bottem line Ovation still isn't fixing the dealer problem. If they don't American made in gear they going to lose a lot of potential consumers.
Right now the brands is in a death spiral... |
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Posts: 2985
Location: Sydney, Australia | I'm with Pez, while a few die-hards like the people here will buy sight-unseen from some grumpy bearded guy, most people won't. If the top-shelf models are not in stock, they won't sell many.
Disclosures:
Legend 1117* (bought new, gave to nephew);
Adamas W597* (bought new, sold);
Adamas 2008 Collectors (bought new from GBG, keeping)
Adamas 1680 (bought new from GBG, keeping)
Adamas 1685 12 string (bought 2nd hand);
Celebrity 12 string* (bought new, selling).
(*These were in-stock at a shop in my area) |
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Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I can count the number of guitars I've purchased after playing them in a brick and mortar store on one hand. I have no qualms about buying gear sight unseen, and the substantial majority of my gear has been purchased in this manner. There really is no other way with gear that is rare, of limited availability, or a custom order. I've also purchased a number of guitars based totally on the word of certain members here who I trust for their honesty, knowledge, and reputation. And, of course, you have to trust others if you want them to reciprocate and trust you. I can't imagine a world where people can't be trusted and don't live by their word. Fortunately, I am not close to very many people like that. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | "Grumpy bearded guy" Al has a beard?? |
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Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
"Grumpy bearded guy" Al has a beard?? grumpy? |
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Posts: 2985
Location: Sydney, Australia | Originally posted by alpep:
Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
"Grumpy bearded guy" Al has a beard?? grumpy? |
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Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Al can be a little abrasive sometimes, but never grumpy. He's either pissed or he's not. |
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a bad preception..... its setting in.