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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | This subject has come up in different forms but as I'm now doing some research for the restaurant where I work at now, I thought it would make an interesting topic...
We may want to have some live music. I suggested an open-mic nite as we have some amazing talent of ex-pro, non-pro, and career hobbyist musicians that would jump at the chance to play a few tunes live.
I'm trying to find out what if any license we need if they play covers and how much it costs. I have found references, but I can't seem to find a ballpark price. The place holds 150 people, although the area they'd play in only holds about 30.
Anyway, if you have a good resource of the info I need, please post. This link http://www.bmi.com/licensing/ede/ was where I got started. |
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Location: Flahdaw | I didn't think there was a fee if the performer is not being paid? |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Dark bar, the restaurtant is making money off of the musicians, so they have to pay. Around here, most reastaurants pay about 300 a year. As a songwriter, I can understand that the writers should be paid. But I also feel that if someone were out there performing one of my songs, it would probably be to my advantage - people who like it would possibly want to go out and buy it.
Here is a link to ASCAP:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGL...
They aren't about to tell you online what the fee would be because if you have to get in touch with them to find out, then they'll know who you are and they can come after you if you don't buy a license. They have done it in this area, to the point that a lot of places won't do open mic or any live entertainment anymore.
But then again, a lot of the people around here are pretty stingy. They would make that money back in a night or three. But they don't even like paying the musicians! They expect people to play for free. One of the local bars asked around for someone to run an open mic every week. When those asked said they'd need $75 a week, they backed out and tries to get Jarrett's band to play there every week. Jarrett is only 16 and shouldn't be playing in a bar anyway, but they figured seeing he was young, they could snooker him into doing it for free.
He's young, but he's not stupid. Now the bar is doing kareoke instead. :rolleyes: |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | How is doing live karaoke any different from singing the same song but doing your own backing track with a guitar? |
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Location: Colorado | Usually licensing is paid with the legal purchase of karaoke product |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | so if I am a club owner and I buy a $50 Karaoke disc, I can then use it forever without ever paying any more fees even after months/years of use. |
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Location: Massachusetts | I've been playing live gigs for yeas and never had any problem doing covers as long as there isn't sheet music for the song on stage. As far as open mics, my feelings are that the clubs are using the musicians for free entertainment while they sell drinks and food. Very seedy on the establishment's part. |
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Location: Connersville, Indiana | Don't quote me on this, but I think each state has different amounts or lack there of, that has to be paid for Open Mic nights. I know here in Indiana if the place has a liquor lic then they have to pay x amount incase people play cover tunes. The coffee bars I have played in on the other hand, did not have to pay a certain amount. Not sure why the laws are like this, that's just what the owners of the coffee houses told me, when I asked them. Since the players are not being paid to play. |
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Location: Flahdaw | I wonder if, in the strictest terms, OMA should be paying a fee to busk on the street for tips? |
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Location: Scotland | The basic rule is that if coprighted work is publicly exploited in any way, then a license is payable by the venue operator (musicians only need to pay a licence fee to record copyrighted material, but not to perform it live) Doesn't matter if the musicians are not being paid, the venue must have a licence to have copyrighted material performed publicly. That is pretty much the norm in the Western World (or any territory where intellectual property rights are respected and enforced) In the UK this is administered by PRS (the Performing Rights Society, not Paul Reed Smith) In the US it is ASCAP I think. There is a grey area if the material used is unpublished and permission is granted by the owner of the work, but the burden of proof lies with the venue. |
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| Originally posted by javaman:
As far as open mics, my feelings are that the clubs are using the musicians for free entertainment while they sell drinks and food. Very seedy on the establishment's part. I've come to personally know the owners of several venues where I play open mics, and I wouldn't characterize them as "seedy." No one is putting a gun to the heads of musicians and forcing them to perform at these venues. On the contrary, open mics are an ideal place for beginning (and even established) singers and songwriters to hone their stage skills and try out new material. I (and all of the people with whom I've played at open mics) have never thought we were being "exploited." On the contrary, we're appreciative of having a place to gather and play on a regular basis. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Originally posted by javaman:
As far as open mics, my feelings are that the clubs are using the musicians for free entertainment while they sell drinks and food. Very seedy on the establishment's part. There's been a long running debate on our local craigslist about this between the professional paid performers and the amateurs who play at open mics. My personal opinion is that most of the complainers are untalented hacks who shouldn't call themselves pros anyway. I feel that I'm better than half the people I hear playing in bars for money, and I would happily play for free at an open mic. I don't care if the bar makes money during the time I play my 3 songs. I'm having fun. And I don't care if someone that's not good enough to create a draw is shorted out of a venue. Find another job. The good performers always seem to land a gig....the bad sit around and whine about open mics. |
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| Not to mention that nearly all open mics (in this part of the world, anyway) are held on normally slow week nights, with the venues universally reserving the weekend big-draw nights for paid "pro" acts. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | One of the advantages of using a looper and playing your own original instrumentals . . . no licensing issues. |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | I'm not saying the performers at an open mic should be paid, but the host should. They have to haul and set up the equipment, run sound, give encouragement, and if not enough people sign up, they have to play all night. Their time, efforts, and the wear and tear on their equipment should surely be worth at least 75 bucks. Especially when you consider that the venue will be making a lot more than that because of all the customers you draw. |
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Location: San Francisco, CA | Several years ago ASCAP landed HARD upon cafes/bars in San Francisco who were allowing covers without having a license fee. The majority of those places went to "originals only" rather than pay the fee.
I remember one establishment (The Sacred Grounds Cafe) declined to pay just $500/yr for the right to allow covers. $10/wk doesn't seem like too much to pay given the place was PACKED with performers every Thursday night (place probably held 50 people or so)...
Anyway, some really fun places to play in SF just went away rather than pay the fee. Too bad for all of us just out to have some fun.
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Location: Flahdaw | I think the bar owners should start charging the performers to play music in their establishments. That would cover the ASCAP fees. Then everyone's happy. |
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Location: San Francisco, CA | "I think the bar owners should start charging the performers to play music in their establishments. That would cover the ASCAP fees. Then everyone's happy..."
Doesn't always work. I told the owner of The Sacred Grounds Cafe in SF I'd pay the $500/yr personally (hell, it's only $10/wk) just to keep the O/M going (it started during the Summer of Love in '67). He declined on a "matter of principle".
Also, I can guarnatee you that the bulk of performers in San Francisco feel everything is owed to them by birthright and that they owe nobody else for anything. No way 98% of them would pay to perform.
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Location: Flahdaw | Uhhh....actually that was a joke. Unfortunately only 2.3% of the population get my jokes. (I need a new writer I suppose) |
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Location: Tennessee | There a few places in San Francisco where this is actually happening. The Red Devil Lounge charges $2 for their open mic on Tuesdays. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
The basic rule is that if coprighted work is publicly exploited in any way, then a license is payable by the venue operator (musicians only need to pay a licence fee to record copyrighted material, but not to perform it live) Doesn't matter if the musicians are not being paid, the venue must have a licence to have copyrighted material performed publicly. That is pretty much the norm in the Western World (or any territory where intellectual property rights are respected and enforced) In the UK this is administered by PRS (the Performing Rights Society, not Paul Reed Smith) In the US it is ASCAP I think. There is a grey area if the material used is unpublished and permission is granted by the owner of the work, but the burden of proof lies with the venue. This is my understanding. I was hoping we had a club owner or someone in the know that knew an example of a license fee. Someone mentioned $500/yr for a 60 seat house many years ago. Was looking for something a little more recent.
Thanks for all the input. A very important part is " burden of proof lies with the venue." This may sound simple enough, but if you have an act playing originals and you get fined. You have to go to the act and get them to cough up the proof of ownership. It could be weeks or months after the fact and maybe it's tunes they haven't even registered yet and are just copyrighting on their own. Remember "copyright" happens when you record or write the tune. To "prove" that it's yours you "register" that tune with the copyright office. But in fact, it is considered copywriten as soon as you commit it to some media. This makes that whole "burden of proof lies with the venue" a can of worms that many clubs/restaurants/bars just say the heck with it for ANY music. Just not worth the hassle. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | And another thing... I think this thread sheds a little light into why club owners act the way they do toward musicians. I'm not defending them, but I can certainly understand it. Their paying the band, their paying license fees, their paying more insurance, and all that is cutting into profit.. that they wouldn't have if they didn't do all that.
If I had to deal with all that day in and day out and acts cancelling gigs, and gear maintenance, etc... I think I'd be a little crabby too when on top of all that there is still the contract and rider negotiations for each group.
I think if we want to blame someone for the state of the music industry... blame lawyers. |
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Location: Tennessee | Well, I hope your place DOES figure out a way to do it. We need more places for people to play music. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | IMHO, you can blame lawyers for about 80% of what is wrong in the USA today vs 50 years ago. |
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Location: closely held secret | Since most of the fools in charge are lawyers, I say more like 95%.
Sorry, Mark. Consider yourself excluded from that. |
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Location: Flahdaw | You CAN blame Mark for a certain percentage of what's wrong with Idaho, though. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | absolutely! |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | No more free legal advice for you guys. If Waskel was referring to the high percentage of lawyers in the federal government, I agree with him 100%, though. But that might be talking politics, which we can't do. Lawyer bashing is allowed, though. Apparently there's an exception in the "be kind" rules for that.
Edit: There's nothing wrong with Idaho, db. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
Edit: There's nothing wrong with Idaho, db. Hey! I've had a few bad potatoes lately. |
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Location: Utah | Originally posted by javaman:
I've been playing live gigs for yeas and never had any problem doing covers as long as there isn't sheet music for the song on stage. As far as open mics, my feelings are that the clubs are using the musicians for free entertainment while they sell drinks and food. Very seedy on the establishment's part. I don't know what sheet music has to do with it, perhaps the appearance of playing a cover vs the appearance of playing an original?
Around here, the seediness of the operation seems to be directly proportional to how badly they treat musicians. We have three distinct classes of live music venues (besides major arenas), the open mic coffee shop or bar, the pay-to-play small club, and the truly professional bar.
For the amateur, there are a number of open mics at coffee shops and a few bars. It is controversial, but for the most part it is hobbiest musicians, old guys in mid life crisis, and high school kids trying to get some stage experience. I think it a fair trade for both the venue and the performer.
The crappy situation is the pay-to-play, which is really the entry level for those wanting to be professional. Virtually all the venues require the performers to "sell" a certain number of tickets in order to perform. Meanwhile the venue is making money on food and drinks. You can only convince your friends to buy a ticket a limited number of times.
Which drives many musicians back to open mics, hence the controversy that nobody can make money in music other than coffee shops and bars who have open mics without paying musicians. |
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Location: Scotland | The problem stems from bars who use live music to attract drinkers (note: attract drinkers - not music fans) so they book any old shite under the guise of "live music" and don't charge a cover. Consequently there is no respect for the musician, the audience or the art, they just want profit from the sale of booze. If you give it away, either as a musician or a venue owner then your product has zero value and will be treat accordingly.
Compare to the places that book competent (at least) musicians and charge a cover. Those places are respected and valued by all concerned. The bottom line is: it's all down to the competence of the promoter, and while it's a very delicate balance, if money comes before the art it will fail. Thus endeth the lesson. |
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Location: Massachusetts | FlySig, as far as the sheet music goes, that's what I've been told and that was over forty years ago. I'm still currently playing with a very popular area band and we haven't heard anything about the clubs having a problem with ASCAP. This could be due to the fact that they are paying the fees.
As for darkbar, I had to reread my post to see where I insulted anyone playing open mics as he lambasted my post with insults about people who complain about what he does to get to play out in a club. I have also played open mics when I get down to Florida and I've met some real nice people doing it. darkbar, if I've somehow ruffled your feathers, I apologize. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Hey Java. Damn, I had to reread this whole thread to see what you were talking about. I was using YOUR post to talk about an ongoing debate in the Sarasota Craigslist, not to diss YOU. There is not much talent in this area, and the guys here bitching about open mics generally suck and should be working at Walmart instead of trying to be "professional musicians." I'm sure that doesn't apply to you and apologize if you read it that way. |
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Location: Massachusetts | dark,you didn't mention any particular area before so I interpreted it as a generalization. I'm in the Ft. Myers area during the winter and we have a great open mic venue there and I'm not aware of any conflicts between musicians. Let's let this whole thing drop. Apology accepted. |
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Location: Michigan | ft.meyers ,,,, leapin lizard :cool: GWB |
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Location: Massachusetts | And we've got plenty of them |
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Fees the Clubs pay...