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Location: cincinnati, ohio | I'm curious to see if this is just a local phenomenon, or if anybody else has noticed it. Very few, if any, music venues in my area (Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana) are actually paying performing musicians anymore - the few places that even have live music anymore (that's another topic altogether). You can put out a tip jar and hope for a generous crowd, but that's about it. A couple of places will put $25 in the jar to start it, and one place even puts in *gasp!* $50. Club owners realized that most musicians want to play so badly that they'd pay the CLUB OWNER to get a gig! And the concept is spreading.
For me, I've always played for free. Playing is fun; what they're paying me for is the time and trouble of setting up my gear and loading it in and out. Years ago, way back in the '70's, Cincinnati was a hotbed for music. People like Craig Fuller (Pure Prairie League) and Adrian Belew (David Bowie) went on to national prominence. You could actually make a decent living as a gigging musician. Even as recently as a few years ago, I could still make some decent auxiliary income from music. My last washer, dryer, refrigerator, and television were all paid for out of pocket with gig money.
But no more - and I seriously doubt anyone could support him/herself as a local musician.
Another side effect is that a lot of mediocre players are competing for the dwindling existing gigs - and are getting booked. Since they're not paying the musicians, club owners could care less if their acts sound like a cat whose tail had been stepped on.
As for me, I still play a lot. I don't really do it for money anymore; I just love to play. I've been around a long time and have a good following, and I can usually scrape up a decent night when I play solo. When I take the trio out for a gig, though, it just about covers gas money. We still play quite a number of private gigs a year (especially in the summer), which helps, but I'm afraid the halcyon days of yesteryear are gone.
Comments? |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Isn't that just Busking, only indoors?
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Location: Flahdaw | I could be wrong, but I don't think there's much money in playing in OUR local bars, even if you're good. A regular gig in a decent restaurant may pay okay. Weddings, Bar mitzvahs, reunions, anniversary bashes, might earn you decent money. I think you gotta do it for the love of it, first and foremost. |
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Location: Nashville, TN | Personnally, I think this is a tragedy..I assumed that this only happened here in Nashville, where there are so many players that will work for tips, just to keep pickin..I didn't know this was a reality in other towns...I still make a living playing full time here in Nashville, but I still use a tip jar where allowed, just so I can get all I can..Even the road gigs don't pay enough anymore..you can make the same staying in town..depending on the artist..new guys coming to town will work for notta..God provides what I need..I'm not whining..just observing:-) |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I was rather shocked and annoyed when I found that locally the restaurant and clubs here essentially pay the same (or less) that was paid in the 80's. $20 - $50 a person is not uncommon. Casino's apparently pay real money as well as private/corporate gigs. Also due to liquer laws, there is no "free beer" for a band, and many places only give an "employee discount" (10-15%) for food.
Now there are some factors... For whatever reasons, the ASCAP/BMI mafia is being aggressive on getting their fees. A liquor license for a place with music has a different set of requirements and higher fees than one without. Insurance goes up if you have music, and especially if you have music after 11pm. The liqueur tag also is affected by how late you are open. And finally there's staffing issues in general besides our 18 year old bussers and waitstaff need to be out of the premises at 11:00.
I am a bar manager at this time, and it pains me as a musician, producer and sound tech to recommend NOT having music for our venue. It's not that there isn't profit in it ... there's actually LOSS in it for the venue, leaving even less for musicians. I suspect, those that pay little, or pay nothing, at least in some cases, are really trying the best they can to do the right thing. Of course some are just greedy. |
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Location: Jet City | It depends on where you play, but we'll usually take home between $60-100 per person, and I add a "ghost member" if we're using my equipment.
That said, we've also played parties for friends for nuthin.
And I take offense to the "mediocre players" comment Rick! We need some play time too. Honestly, I don't know that talent has ever been the main deciding factor of who's popular and who's not. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Originally posted by Damon67:
Honestly, I don't know that talent has ever been the main deciding factor of who's popular and who's not. There was a 10 year period down here in Florida where no matter HOW bad you were, if you could just play Jimmy Buffet songs, the crowds were happy and a player could stay booked. I saw a ton of crap players with steady gigs. |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I consider myself fortunate that I have other types of jobs that allow me to play as an avocation rather than a vocation. I'm sure being a professional musician is much like other mediums of show business. For the majority of those not at the top of the food chain, it is a constant cycle of boom-bust-boom-bust. Get a regular gig and you can pretty much live off your expenses and bank your paycheck. Lose the gig and you can live off your banked pay until another gig comes along or you run out of money, then you have to do something else to pay the bills. Young people handle this better than old folks like me because they have fewer possessions and less baggage holding them back. |
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Location: East Tennessee | There is a joke that goes like this;
A guy wins 2 million dollars in the lottery. When asked what he was going to do, he replied, "I'm going to become a professional musician until the money runs out." |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | Mr. O: I'm sure the economy has a lot to do with it. My sense is that there are some owners who try to do the right thing, but there are also those who are taking advantage of the situation. Case in point: when our trio plays at a (tips only) local winery, we always bring in a standing room only crowd. They have to set up extra tables and chairs. The servers run their tails off all night, and that place is rockin' busy until we quit playing. We have pretty decent paydays here, but I know - at least on that night - the club owner's not hurting.
Dan: Man, if it's happening in Nashville, things are really grim.
Damon: No offense intended - and the people I'm referring to are REALLY bad! No stage presence. Guitars horrendously out of tune, tuned to two or three different relative pitches - and out of tune individually from string to string. And the vocals -GAAAAHHH! You've gotta be better than that if you're pulling down $60 to $100 per person.
Bob: the Buffett syndrome lives on in Florida, at least in St. Augustine. We were just down there in May. There's a stretch of A1A in St. Augustine Beach that's wall to wall restaurants and bars, all with live music - and lotsa Buffett - some good, and some gut-wrenchingly bad. Several of the places start music at 5 pm and go until 2:30 the next morning, cycling 3 and sometimes 4(!) bands and/or performers in and out. There are a few punk bands, but it's mostly solo acoustic or acoustic rock bands, leaning heavily on classic rock staples, and a lot of Jimmy boy. St. George Street (foot traffic only) in the Old City is the same way, with many places having music outdoors in beautiful courtyards (BTW, I really LOVE St. Augustine!). I walked around the place salivating and cursing myself for not bringing a guitar. I could have made a killing! :( |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | Mike: too funny, and yet too sad and too true. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | That was funny Mike.
And Damon is at least "Highly" mediocre...
As a Church Musician I'm on God's 401K payment plan - play/pray now, reward later... |
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Location: Massachusetts | I can remember when only Union Musicians could play at certain clubs and restaurants. Is this going to be the in the future with all of these clubs not paying proper wages to musicians?
The pendulum always swings in the opposite direction sooner or later. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | In Florida you just have to do Buffet tunes, it's the law.
The thing I've noticed in CT is that there is much more participation in the open mics. Here you can play somewhere every night if you want to, and many times there's a choice of where you can go. A couple of years ago there would be several people at them , now there's 20+ each night. These are becoming much more popular. Now the Medeofukinochre are out in force but there are many people who after a year or two are getting their chops together.
But the bottom line is that I think it's true, there is less work for the "real" musicians. At least less that they can get paid for. |
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Location: Nashville TN. | Plus for a lot a places the bad economy, dui enforcement (not that that is a bad thing) and smoking bans all hurt business for venues that used to offer paying gigs. A lot of cost cutting going on. Karaoke and DJ's as cheaper options. Now they want you to fill the room not just keeping the people who come in there. |
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Location: Massachusetts | PEZ, I hear that a lot from bar managers about bringing in 100 people or more, but what about the bar having a following? I can remember being in a house band that played multiple nights for weeks at a time, now you have to set up and tear down your equipment for a one night stand. Not very cost effective for the band, who have to set up thousands of dollars worth of equipment to play one night. |
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Location: NJ | I remember when Pay to play came around in the early 80's that was the start and it only got worse.
there are too many musicians that suck that will play for free and only if they REALLY suck will the owners of the places ask them to stop and leave. as a result good people find it harder and harder to get paid.
so far this year I did 5 charity events. at least I do not have to suffer the indignity of not getting paid |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Playing in a church praise band has its advantages. Steady work, very appreciative audience, committed musicians, contemporary and uptempo music, a place to store your big gear pieces during the week, no drunks, no late night work, and opportunity to pick up private paid gigs from the residual exposure. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | It goes around and around.
There were three or four weeks :-) in the 70's when I made a good living as a stand-up folksinger-comic in bars and lounges. I happened to quit to go work in the family grocery business 3 months before disco seemed to 'hit' B C and Alberta. All the places I used to play switched to sound systems and mirror balls and all the solo/duo acts I knew were out of work.
There does seem to be a strong indie circuit, but you've got to hustle and cover lots of ground. Filling in between regular bookings with house concerts.
The 'old' (60's - 80's) days of putting a decent local band together and making some good side money is pretty much gone. Perhaps for good. Traditionally musicians were traveling troubadours, not small businessmen. |
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Location: Little Rock, Arkansas | Little Rock is very similar to what I'm hearing from you guys. 60-100 bucks per man for a gig. Fortunately there are several live venues for us to rotate around in, whether individual acoustic, acoustic trio or full band. I have yet to see one here where you are not paid by the business. Although I have a day job, I like making a few bucks each weekend and being paid for doing something I would do for free. |
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| I don't play gigs much anymore, at least not of the paying variety. If they're paying you they feel they own you and I'm no longer in the mood to be owned, however briefly, by the likes of some of these club owners. Fact its, given the travel and setup time etc, you're better off taking a 7-11 job.
I'm always happy to play at a neighbor's cook out or block party, or whatever - always for free. Charitable event? Call me. |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | Well, if you're doing $60 to $100 per, that's pretty darned good. |
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Location: Flahdaw | For a guy and an acoustic guitar, maybe an amp if there's no p.a. or if you want to run your amp through the p.a., there ain't THAT much setup.
Bands....that's different. I don't know HOW a band can make any money these days. |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | They don't! :D Yeah, I can set up solo in 10 minutes, 15 tops. Not that bad. I just like to cover my expenses, maybe have a little pocket money. They usually give me a free meal and all the iced tea I can drink, so I'm a happy camper. |
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Location: Eaton, Indiana | Been there and am doing that. Street corners in Nashville aren't too bad on a good night.
scott lamperd b c (before computers) |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Originally posted by scott lamperd:
Street corners in Nashville aren't too bad on a good night. Based on some of the responses, perhaps if you can find one not already occupied. |
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Location: SW Florida | i live in SW Florida and there definately is a lot of Beach musicians. tiki bars, beach bars, etc. you can play 7 days a week/ 4 hours a night for about $100-150 a night. you can make a few extra bucks in tips and possibly cd sales. however, the money isnt in these venues. you have to deal with the weather conditions. heat, humidity, salt air, red tide. yuk! i played one place that only paid $50, but the tips were 150-300 in a 3 hour gig. it was weather permitting though. if the weather sucked, you made your $50 and thats it. i decided to stay away from these places. i now play the yacht clubs, country clubs, and mobile home parks. all the parties are private and pay outstanding. 3 hours a night. usually done by 10 pm. and these venues tip rather well. plus you dont have to play the buffett music. plus my gear and voice doesnt have to deal with the weather. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | I couldn't make it in Fla... I don't know, OR LIKE, any Jimmy Buffet music.
Song that I get Paid for? All the Time? "Wish You Were Here"
But how many times in one day can you play that?
(Once I have to start repeating myself, it is time to go Home) |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | I'm always asked to play "Far, Far, Away" |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Beal:
I'm always asked to play "Far, Far, Away" :D |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | Originally posted by Beal:
I'm always asked to play "Far, Far, Away" At least they don't request 'The Sound of Silence.' ;) |
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Location: Sydney, Australia | Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
Song that I get Paid for? All the Time? "Wish You Were Here"
But how many times in one day can you play that?
(Once I have to start repeating myself, it is time to go Home) Many years ago, when I was busking with a friend, he insisted on continuously playing "Put some money in my geetar case" (to the tune of knocking on heaven's door) because it generated more money and no one hung around to hear what you played next (the same song).
Wish you were here sounds great on a 12 string. |
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Location: Texas | Originally posted by Beal:
In Florida you just have to do Buffet tunes, it's the law.
Just do "Jimmy Buffet Doesn't Live in Key West Anymore" every time someone requests "Margaritaville"…
;) |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Originally posted by Old Man Arthur:
Isn't that just Busking, only indoors?
Vic |
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Location: cincinnati, ohio | My mantra has always been, They don't pay me to play. Playing's fun; I do that for free. I get paid for loading in, setting up, tearing down, and loading out. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Rick... ya know... I think that's a brilliant way to put it. No one ever really complains about the gig... or calls it work. It's just the loading and unloading. "It took me 1 hour to unload, another to set up, an hour to tear down, and all I got is XXX dollars.".
Thank you for the perspective. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Find gigs where all you have to do is plug in to the house PA. You bring your guitar and a cable and you're done. |
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Location: south east Michigan | yeah... I'd like to do that.
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But I bet there aren't many places with a house PA. |
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Location: Jet City | If they're doing bands, they should have a PA, but there are the exceptions.
If you're on your own playing in a coffeeshop or something like that, there's really not much of a setup time. A small 2 channel amp is really all that's needed. |
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Posts: 616
Location: cincinnati, ohio | Originally posted by Mr. Ovation:
Rick... ya know... I think that's a brilliant way to put it. No one ever really complains about the gig... or calls it work. It's just the loading and unloading. "It took me 1 hour to unload, another to set up, an hour to tear down, and all I got is XXX dollars.".
Thank you for the perspective. You're welcome. :) I've always pretty much felt that way. It wasn't as big of an issue when I was a young buck with a strong back, but those amps get heavier every year! :D As Bob (dark bar) mentioned, the ideal situation is to find a place with a house PA. You might have to compromise on the sound quality, but it's less work.
I've got it down to a science at this point. I have my mic mounted on my music stand, so I can eliminate the mic stand. I have a little Roland AC 60 acoustic chorus amp. Sometimes I put it on an angled amp stand, and sometimes when I'm extra lazy I just put it on the floor and angle it up with the little built-in stand underneath it. Beyond that I have a guitar stand (or two or three, depending on how many guitars I bring). And that's it. I borrow a folding chair from the venue. I figure if a folding chair's good enough for Neil Young, it's good enough for me. :) |
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OT: "TIPS-ONLY" GIGS?