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Location: Atlanta GA | The all carbon fiber guitar may be coming back in a hurry.
Great read for all you Gibson skeptics
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471... |
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Location: Flahdaw | That's why I stopped using my Florida Panther fur lined guitar case when traveling. |
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Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | So, no more overseas shipments for this lad. |
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Location: SoCal | Makes me wonder where the fiberglass on my guitars was harvested? |
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Location: Suisun City, Ca | I think the American portion of Gibson should shut down and fire all the employees. |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | It's going to hurt my business. I sell a lot of guitars to Canadians. |
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Location: Denmark | Isn't ebony - as in fretboards - a threatened species? |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | A reasonable person might conclude that there are more important and consequential laws to enforce. |
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Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | posted by CanterburyStrings:
It's going to hurt my business. I sell a lot of guitars to Canadians. Ah... But you only have to worry about it when bringing it IN to the USA. |
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Location: Flahdaw | I'm kinda surprised we aren't giving all the illegal imported wood free healthcare and food stamps.... |
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Location: Nashville TN. | only raiding one company ......hum |
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Location: SE Michigan | I have mixed emotions about this. On the one hand I certainly agree that there are more pressing problems for law enforcement to address. I also love fine wood guitars.
On the other hand, if they do not enforce environmental laws, the laws are pointless and profiteers will rape our planet. Also I believe (and have sampled) many fine alternatives to endangered tropical hardwoods in guitars. I think as guitar players we need to open out minds a bit and give such alternatives a try. My current favorite guitars are a mostly-maple Tak and a mostly synthetic Adamas. They both do however have ebony fretboards and bridges (I love stark black ebony!)
One of these days I would like to get one of the Martin Sustainable Cherry models. I have heard of some pretty nice guitars made using Walnut as well.
In a way it's like crazy Chinese people creating a market for tiger testicles. It's really crazy and stupid to kill tigers for this purpose (ever hear of viagra?). Ultimately it is the consumer that drives the market. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Originally posted by PEZ:
only raiding one company ......hum My guess; it was Beal 'dropped a dime' on them.... |
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Location: Ohio | The feds should stop worrying about illegal WOOD aliens, and sork more on the HUMAN illegal aliesn |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Wasn't me, there are many, many people ahead of me in that line. |
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Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by Brian T:
On the other hand, if they do not enforce environmental laws, the laws are pointless and profiteers will rape our planet. Except that it didn\'t have anything to do with US environmental laws . |
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Location: Minneapolis | Yes, interesting read. Thanks for posting. I wonder if there are other associations such as the International Pernambuco Preservation Initiative? http://www.ipci-usa.org/
(which I have contributed to in the past)
Other exotic woods need protection too and until we get a handle on our consumption, I feel that environmental laws - however draconian - are our only recourse. Where there is a market, you will find unscrupulous harvesters and builders... Do we need to drive these plants and animals to extinction to solve the problem?
Yes, there are many other "more important" issues to tackle. But that does not mean we should set one aside and concentrate on another. Learn about the endangered materials. Avoid buying new instruments that use threatened woods, and look for entities such as the IPCI to support. Just sayin'... |
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Location: SE Michigan | So now the management of Gibson is crying that they were raided because they support the Republican party and CF Martin was not raided because they lean Democratic. Great red-herring.
Stop and consider the recent reputations of these two companies.
In recent years Gibson is noted for it's "Jack-Boot" marketing techniques. Up in Lansing Michigan is a wonderful music store with a great national reputation called Elderly Instruments. Gibson tried to force Elderly to put it's guitars in the first pages of it's catalog, and to reserve prime floor space for Gibson guitars, while pushing competing guitars into the background. The owners of Elderly Instruments told Gibson to go pound sand and they currently do not carry the Gibson line. I know a few people in the musical instrument business and the word is that Gibson rules over it's dealers in a style reminiscent of how Walmart rules it's suppliers. Bravo for Elderly.
Contrast Gibson with CF Martin guitars. Martin has remained faithful to it's environmental commitments. Martin voluntarily submits to annual audits by the Forest Stewardship Council and maintains FSC certification. Martin also has been a leader in producing guitars using sustainable woods and alternate materials. From what I have observed Gibson's focus seems to be market domination. this may explain why Gibson was raided and not CF Martin. I say give this story a few weeks to let the facts develop and then lets see exactly what was uncovered at Gibson. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Gibson may be a bunch of jerks, but it sounds like they are selling the exact same wood as Martin. Sure makes me curious.... |
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Location: SE Michigan | Gibson may be a bunch of jerks, but it sounds like they are selling the exact same wood as Martin. Sure makes me curious....
Where there is smoke there is usually fire. There are a lot of other guitar makers out there that have not been raided. |
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| Not defending or condemning any guitar maker here, but this is exactly what's wrong with any discourse today. The original article in the OP is from the Wall Street Journal, not exactly a bastion of liberal propaganda, and states the issue is over certain woods banned by CITES such as MADAGASCAR ebony and rosewood. The second "article" is not from any accredited news organization, but rather one single person's blog where he basically is acting as a shill for Gibson by re-posting Gibson's own press release in their defense, wherein they try to divert attention by talking about entirely different wood sources. If you want to believe everything you see on the Internet, I have a bank account in Nigeria I'm holding for a deposed prince I'd like to talk to you about. |
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Location: SE Michigan | Here is a link to the actual federal warrant:
http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/wtvf/PDF/GibsonAffidavit.pdf
See paragraph 21, cites fraudulent documentation of the wood in question. I agree with G8r, you can find most any point of view that you desire on the internet. Give this a little time and see what the real facts are. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Very good Brian! |
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Location: Texas | Just one more little tidbit.
Fender, Taylor, Rickenbacker, Danelectro, Carvin, MusicMan, ESP, Spector, Martin, Guild, Ovation, Hamer, Alvarez, B.C. Rich, Washburn and Heritage all share a common trait not shared by Gibson. My understanding is that all those companies operate out of Union states.
Tennessee is a right-to-work state.
Name another instrument company, targeted by the DOJ under the Lacey Act. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Maybe it's just 'cos I don't like Martin Guitars that I WANT to believe there is something underhanded going on. 'Course I don't like Gibson either. |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | I wonder if they could nail Esteban for illegal pressed board... |
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Location: Nashville TN. | doesn't its like expensive guitar??? |
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Location: Brisbane Australia | If they were going to run the gauntlet you'd think they'd at least import better timber for their necks
It might solve the snapping headstock problem on a Les Paul!!
AJ |
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Location: SE Michigan | Fender, Taylor, Rickenbacker, Danelectro, Carvin, MusicMan, ESP, Spector, Martin, Guild, Ovation, Hamer, Alvarez, B.C. Rich, Washburn and Heritage all share a common trait not shared by Gibson. My understanding is that all those companies operate out of Union states.
Tennessee is a right-to-work state. Name another instrument company, targeted by the DOJ under the Lacey Act.
Could just be that the other manufacturers are simply following the rules. As I mentioned earlier, Gibson has been very aggressive lately in regards to how they run there business. |
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Location: closely held secret | That's not a warrant. It's an affidavit in support of a warrant.
Trust me, I'm not defending Gibson. I'm simply of the belief that there is no free society when governments are allowed to do as they please concerning peoples liberty with no accountability. |
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Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | The feds should stop worrying about illegal WOOD aliens, and work more on the HUMAN illegal aliens Well the first is something they can do: 1. It's an easy target and 2. they know they'll not face any defensive action during the raid...
The second is something entirely different: 1. they're everywhere and 2. it's easier to just ignore the problem and use children's TV to teach the next generation of Americans Spanish...after all: someone needs to fill the jobs a lot of Americans feel are beneath them...if it ain't broke, why fix it?
Play Adamas! |
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Location: south east Michigan | Wow... We obviously have vastly different opinions of what "broke" looks like. |
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Location: Flahdaw | Originally posted by Slipkid:
Wow... We obviously have vastly different opinions of what "broke" looks like. This is what "broke" looks like...
BROKE |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Speaking of guitars... the issue as I see it is that no matter how big you are the reward for getting what you want regardless of what rules are broken is simply "you lose".
LMI appears to be in the middle of a Black Market trail to get unfinished product that should have been provided by local craftsman.
If I believe the affadavit then the right portion of our Government made a worthy case.
Sellers and Processors of exotic and marketable woods know what the rules are and what is off limits. This sends the message that the rules must be followed.
If you can't comply, do something else or pay to have the rules changed like the rest of the Industrial Brutes... |
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Location: south east Michigan | Parts / raw material must be finished by India's local craftsman????
Or else the American FBI raids your factory????
.
I wish we had some of those restrictions that worked the other way around. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Slipkid:
Parts / raw material must be finished by India's local craftsman????
Or else the American FBI raids your factory????
.
I wish we had some of those restrictions that worked the other way around. We probably do. The other countries most likely just choose to ignore them. |
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Location: Cork, Ireland | How do I know where/when the ebony on my 30+ year-old Pacemaker was harvested and made? |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | "Gibson is run by a bunch of jerks....
no, just one. |
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Location: Utah | Originally posted by Brian T:
On the other hand, if they do not enforce environmental laws, the laws are pointless and profiteers will rape our planet. Also I believe (and have sampled) many fine alternatives to endangered tropical hardwoods in guitars. I think as guitar players we need to open out minds a bit and give such alternatives a try. If reasonable laws are being violated, enforce those laws. I am not an expert in exotic endangered wood, but the laws seem reasonable.
What is not reasonable is the way they are being enforced with regards to obviously older instruments. It is asinine to be confiscating old pianos because the keys have real ivory on them. Or confiscating old guitars because the owner cannot document what kind of wood each part is made from and where that wood came from. Perhaps it is the issue of police state tactics, confiscating property before proving guilt. Who could have imagined a time when one would be afraid to take their vintage instrument across the border? |
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Location: Flahdaw | In the future, all intruments are to be made from a "wood-like substance". (usually a form of recycled medical waste) |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | In the future we'll all be dead.
In the meantime, we live in a complicated world that we made.
Just like any other game, all you can do is learn the rules,
play as best you can, and hope you get the right cards.
(unless it's Scrabble, then all bets are off!) |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Stephen, make you a deal.
Don't make generalizations about 'other countries'
and I'll try not to make generalizations about Americans.... ;-p |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | I've come not to like the Gibson's. I find the fretboards too cramped ... and now, I know they are made from illegally harvested wood! I was down in Indonesia in 2009, and those guys don't give a darn what they chop down as long as it'll make a buck. Saw the same thing down in Costa Rica in the 90's. |
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Location: Connersville, Indiana | In my career I have fill out 1000's of request for search warrants. In reading the affidavit I see that they have found shipment of wood going back to 2009 I think. What I wonder is how long has the investigation being going on. If they knew way back when they should of done something then instead of waiting for more probable cause, One of my pet piss me offs. Because if they knew then, how many guitars have been made and sold. Now if in the investigation they just turned of the evidence then act now instead of waiting. Black Market items are everywhere, fake watches, endangered wood, endangered animals, I know there seems to be more pressing issues to address, but someone has to do something sometime or it just keeps going on. just my personal opinion. I just hope they don't stop at Gibson and continue the investigation into other music companies. Stringed instrument companies, piano companies, making high end pianos for the rich with Ivory keys and on and on and on. |
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Location: Massachusetts | I was thinking of bringing my custom legend with me to Florida, but now I'm concerned that it might get confiscated at the airport because of the ebony fretboard. |
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Location: Texas | Originally posted by javaman:
I was thinking of bringing my custom legend with me to Florida, but now I'm concerned that it might get confiscated at the airport because of the ebony fretboard. Presumably you are joking? I didn't think there was cause for concern with domestic flights, since the guitar and it's components either originated here, or are assumed to have been legally imported in the past. Returning to the U.S. on an international flight however, could potentially cause problems with customs, IF the rumors are true.
But don't take my (nor anyone else's) speculation for fact, do a little research before heading to the airport. |
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Location: Massachusetts | Since I heard about the Gibson raid I've been trying to find out more about what's legal and not legal regarding the possession of guitars with endangered wood that were legally purchased here in the U.S..
So far it seems to refer to manufacturers and importers rather than individuals who own guitars that have these woods in them.
Has anyone heard of any incident where someone's personal guitar was confiscated? |
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Location: south east Michigan | For I brief instance I was concerned about how we cross through Canada on our way out east.
Then I realized how silly & paranoid that was. |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by javaman:
Has anyone heard of any incident where someone's personal guitar was confiscated? I don't know of any actual cases, but it is perfectly within their remit, according to how they are interpreting the terms of the Lacey Act. If you don't have the relevant paperwork they can permanently confiscate any guitar containing endangered material, regardless of when it was made (even if it's just a Brazillian rosewood headstock veneer) and stick the owner with a hefty fine. Also the burden of proof regarding the origin and species of the material lies with the owner. If they decide your instrument is made with Brazillan R/W but it's actually say Jacaranda, tough, what they say goes. I was talking to Stan Jay at MandoBandits about this, and the paperwork is not difficult to get. So while it's a PITA, if you are travelling with an instrument containing species on the list then it's probably wise to jump through their hoops beforehand.
I did a gig a few weeks ago with Katy Moffatt who was touring with a '69 Brazillian D28 she'd had since she was a kid. She wasn't even remotely aware of the law or the risks when crossing international borders. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | They may have confiscated Pete Seeger's Banjo with the Lignum Vitae
neck? Seeger\'s Banjo missing |
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Location: Texas | "the banjo had been found by a man who went on vacation before returning it."
What? Found (in an unlocked Toyota) went on vacation (errr, waited until the reward was offered), and returned it (bagged 1K).
America...the land of opportunity. |
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Bad Day for Gibson