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Location: Netherlands | Hi!
I'm the proud owner of an Adamas 2008 collectors (#63) and I have a little question about the VIP5 preamp. Should the XLR out of the guitar be capable of feeding the preamp though phantom power?
Used together with the dummy plug it works fine, but I once have had the preamp powered up via XLR only, but after some time plugged in the signal dropped out, and it now only works when I use dummy plug.
Perhaps it's just not designed for running on +48v power. Like to know!
Regards,
Robert |
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| Welcome to the board, Robert. I too have an 08C (#21), and this is my first experience with the VIP. There was a recent thread stating that you need an XLR cable with a grounded pin 1. That may be your issue. If you can't find one in the Netherlands, contact either Paul Templeman in the UK (thru this board, do a member search), or Al Pepiak at http://lostartvintage.com in the USA. They might be able to help you out. |
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Location: East Wenatchee, WA | Older XLR do not have the #1 pin grounded. I have found several newer microphone XLR cables that work just fine whereas my older ones do not.
HOWEVER: The Phantom power WILL NOT power the VIP. The grounded pin only provides the means to activate the switch that turns on the pre-amp, but the VIP runs ONLY on the battery.
I have verified this at every level, by pulling my batter, using a dead battery and including confirmation from the pre-amp manufacturer.
I have both a 2080 and 2008C with the VIP.
Hope this helps. |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by JeffreyD:
HOWEVER: The Phantom power WILL NOT power the VIP. The grounded pin only provides the means to activate the switch that turns on the pre-amp, but the VIP runs ONLY on the battery.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand why they would bother to include such a feature as you describe, it makes no sense. Either the preamp operates on phantom, or it doesn't, and having phantom PSU power a switch but not the unit would be total nonsense. As I understood it the VIP will operate on phantom with an XLR which has a pin-1 short to ground. If you are correct then they should withdraw the VIP and have it redesigned.
The processing in the VIP is very power hungry. Why would they make it dependant on a limited-life 9v cell rather than a constant 48V supply? I'm not doubting your personal experience, it just seems very strange. Anyone else? |
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Location: East Wenatchee, WA | Sorry Paul....I thought it was nuts too ....but it is true despite how we feel about it.
I went beyond personal experience on this one. |
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Location: Scotland | Hmmmm. Still not convinced. Robert, maybe you should vist the Ovation website and contact customer service for some advice on this |
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| This is a good information quest, I am sure there are many who have not posted who would like to know. If antone gets an answer from the factory please post it.
I have a couple of guitars coming and I too would like to know if I will need to buy a bigger stack of batteries than normal. I love my earlier electronics. I am sure they are slightly behind the times soundwise but man the batteries last and last. And this is good as I always forget to replace them. |
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Location: Keller, TX | At the Factory tour in 2006, this was described as a design "feature".
At the Factory tour in 2007, they admitted it was a design "flaw" that was caught too late in the production process to change.
I sold my 2007 KOA a while back, but did alot of testing on it. This is what I remember:
Yes, the VIP does run off phantom power. Yes, you need a cable with pin 1 to ground connectivity. Yes, you have to insert a dummy plug or cable into the 1/4 inch port to activate the preamp. However, once activated with the 1/4 inch plug, it draws power from the phantom source, not the battery. |
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Location: Keller, TX | Oops, sorry, 2006 KOA. |
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Location: Scotland | Tom, I seem to remember that, I think you're right. |
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Location: East Wenatchee, WA | OK....so if I get this straight,
Plug in properly grounded XLR, plug in dummy plug and viola, I am running off of phantom?
So if I turn off my phantom power at the mixer I should lose power to my pre-amp right (as a test)?
I will try it out if that is the case. I don't think it hurts anything to turn off the phantom while plugged in right? |
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Location: East Wenatchee, WA | Originally posted by JeffreyD:
OK....so if I get this straight,
Plug in properly grounded XLR, plug in dummy plug and viola, I am running off of phantom?
So if I turn off my phantom power at the mixer I should lose power to my pre-amp right (as a test)?
I will try it out if that is the case. I don't think it hurts anything to turn off the phantom while plugged in right? Oops...never mind. That doesn't work as a test, as if it is running on the battery as I suspect, then the battery has been powering it all along.
So....how can we actually test this? |
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| Now I have to ask a question, I'd say a Stupid Question but actually it is pretty good. I am the one who's stupid. Here it goes......
How can I know the difference between these cords? Grounded pin or not?? does one have a different number of pins??
Also does the Studio version of the new onboard electronics have this feature/flaw as well? |
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Location: Netherlands | thanks for the many replies already.
I sent an email to adamasguitars already but didn't get an answer yet. I'll send the same so ovationguitars, perhaps it'll be answered more quickly.
Testing if the vip pre will run on phantom with the dummy plug inserted indeed seems to be a little difficult.
I tried a bunch of xlr cables but they're all quite new, so I'm quite sure they will all have ground/shield connected to pin 1. (@ northcountry, it's about the wiring of the shield/hot/cold inside the mic cable to the 3 pins of the XLR connector, so you can't see it from outside) |
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Location: Chehalis, Washington | Robert, try to contact either John Budny or Kim Keller...they should be able to answer your question.
I had a 2080 for a bit with the VIP, and from what I could tell, the preamp does run on phantom ONLY IF you have the grounded XLR plug (thanks again DVD for that one) and a closed plug in the 1/4" jack. I did find out that an open ended plug (such as a 1/4" to 2mm headphone converter) does not work as a "dummy" plug. You actually need the plug that Ovation produces, or a regular 1/4" cable plugged in and hanging loose. (Why this works is anyone's guess)
Trouble is, doing a true test is difficult, since the VIP will not run in ANY mode without a functional battery in it.
All things considered, I love my Pro-Studio, and will always consider the Optima my favorite preamp. |
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Location: Keller, TX | Originally posted by Northcountry:
How can I know the difference between these cords? Grounded pin or not?? does one have a different number of pins??
Also does the Studio version of the new onboard electronics have this feature/flaw as well? Best way to tell is with a volt meter. If pin 1 has continuity with the shell, it will work. If not, it wont.
The Studio does NOT have this "feature". Just plug in and go. |
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| I guess I will be OK, I will have Al set me up but I was just asking because I do not carry a meter around to the music stores, and I hoped there might be a simple or obvious difference that I, or any of the other members, could see right away.
Interesting problem. |
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Location: Netherlands | |
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Location: Netherlands | Got an e-mail back from Ovation, and the answer was short but clear:
"The VIP preamp does not run on phantom power. "
Quite a pity... |
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Location: south east Michigan | The VIP does have it's quirks but I really like the sound it provides.
I'll have one someday. By that time the VIP-2 might be out and it will address some of these concerns. |
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Location: East Wenatchee, WA | Originally posted by RobertDorn:
Got an e-mail back from Ovation, and the answer was short but clear:
"The VIP preamp does not run on phantom power. "
Quite a pity... I agree. This is the response I got after putzing with the VIP for almost six months last year and talking via email with John during that time. I really want a Phantom powered unit and that is the only negative of the 2008C that I can see. But...I live with it by buying gross lots of 9v batteries at Costco and just keeping one handy. You do not have very long after the light blinks before power is gone either. I do the "tongue test" before playing on Sundays just to be sure that the battery has power, and I unplug the guitar when it is just sitting (i.e. during announcements and such) to preserve power.
Besides licking a 9v battery reminds you that you are still alive. :eek: |
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Location: Sydney, Australia | Sounds like someone in R&D at Ovation needs a good butt kicking. 
Hopefully the VIP-2 will: (1) operate the tuner without a dummy plug; (2) pushing the tuner button will activate the tuner long enough to tune 6 (that's right 6) strings instead of 3; and (3) run on phantom power. |
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Location: SoCal | Nothing in the Ovation preamp should be this complicated. You want a preamp in a guitar with which, you can just plug in and go. A preamp with this many quirks should simply be junked, written off, and never used again. I wonder how many people, besides those on this board, bought a guitar with one of these preamps, tried it, couldn't figure it out, and junked the whole guitar while at the same time, badmouthing it to their friends? |
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Location: Omaha, NE | I'm not an expert by any means on phantom power, but I've always assumed it was designed for extremely low amperage situations. Electrically, condenser mic's are pretty much just capacitors. As such, they draw virtually no power through a phantom power supply.
The VIP is totally different. Its got significant power needs to drive all the internal IC chips. My assumption is that there are limits to how much power you can draw through a phantom power supply, and the VIP would exceed that (but in a quick Google search I couldn't find any specs saying precisely what the max power would be).
My experience is that the VIP is more power hungry than my Optima, but not exceptionally so. If the low battery light starts flashing during a show, I've got no worries at all about making it to the next break before replacing it.
The big battery killer for me is forgetting to remove the dummy plug. I guess that's why they call it the dummy plug. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | So how long is the battery life ? |
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Location: Omaha, NE | I'm not sure. In the last year or so I've had the VIP I've probably replaced it two or three times when it "died of natural causes". The rest (at least eight or ten times) it died from me leaving the dummy plug in overnight.
Its really not a big deal. I bought a monster pack of batteries at Costco. I keep a spare in my case, the rest in my desk at home.
Just guessing here, but I'd probably expect to replace one every three or four weeks maybe. That's based on playing plugged in for maybe ten hours a week, and dummy plugging for the tuner a few nights a week also. |
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Location: Netherlands | I got another message from adamas, also confirming the VIP-5 doesn't run on phantom power. However, if I understood it right, they also told me that with XLR cable they provide (ground to shield, probably yet a different wiring than a common XLR cable? not realy into exact XLR wiring) you don't need to use the dummy plug when plugged in via XLR. |
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Location: East Wenatchee, WA | Originally posted by RobertDorn:
I got another message from adamas, also confirming the VIP-5 doesn't run on phantom power. However, if I understood it right, they also told me that with XLR cable they provide (ground to shield, probably yet a different wiring than a common XLR cable? not realy into exact XLR wiring) you don't need to use the dummy plug when plugged in via XLR. Robert, this is correct and I think what I was trying to say in a prior post I made. The proper XLR trips the switch so to speak and does NOT require the dummy plug. I found this out by trying several mic cords until a new Carvin cord I recently bought activated the power, where my older cords would not. Now this XLR acts just like the 1/4" plug. But, as you also pointed out, the VIP does not use phantom power. I typically make it about two months on a battery. That includes about 4 to 5 hours plugged in practice and another 4 to 5 hours of playing in worship services. So let's say about 10 hours, maybe more from a Costco Duracell 9V (I think it's a that...gold/black battery?). |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | 10 to 12 hours on a battery sounds about right. Could be a litle more. As far as tripping the preamp switch, besides the Ovation XLR cable (Al has them), the Planet Waves swivel cable also works. |
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| This is a Marketing Dept problem. Nobody is allowed to say anymore that "we have a really good preamp that we don't need to improve". Something new has to be added, something has to be tweaked so that marketing can do their thing. In this case adding stuff into a preamp that should, for a whole variety of reasons, be best done outboard.
IMHO most people here didn't know they needed anything else when all they had wre Optimas - just about everyone was happy. The OPs were just as good and probably easier to use than the Optimas and were almost certainly good enough for anybody. And the battery life was/is excellent in my experience.
The Op-Pros and the VIP are development for the sake of it. I don't want an onboard compressor. I don't want onboard mic imaging.
There is just no need to put this kind of hassle into a GUITAR. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | A good marketing tactic might be to sell the guitars (at a lowered price point) withOUT pre-amps and let the customer purchase the pre-amp of their choice. ie, notice that a lot of drum shell kits come withOUT snare because drummers are very particular about their snares and want to mix and match their own choice.
1. Sell the guitars with the pre-amp can only, and just have a solid removable cover on it. Great place to store your weed, by the way. This would also satisfy those like me who pre-fer acoustic only guitars.
2. Sell the pre-amps seperately, thus allowing the purchaser to get exactly what he wants and no more than needed. Like a computer monitor, which one do you want with your new pc and they are all compatible.
3. Side benefit is that it positions the pre-amp in the mind of the buyer/owner as an upgradable and replacable item possibly fostering later spinn-off sales.
Yes, you can think of all kinds of technical and logistical issues that would have to be worked out, but I think the basic premis is sound.
Dave |
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Location: Omaha, NE | That's a pretty good idea.
And from now on, its not a "pre-amp can". Its a "weed box". Perfect. |
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| Dave - isn't this what Takamine pretty much do? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by schroeder:
Dave - isn't this what Takamine pretty much do? No, not exactly. On some of the models they offer a CoolTube version and a Non-CoolTube version. But they don't go as far selling the guitars sans-preamp and let you buy your own p/a among the 4-5 that they offer.
Dave |
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Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by Gallerinski:
1. Sell the guitars with the pre-amp can only, and just have a solid removable cover on it. Great place to store your weed, by the way. This would also satisfy those like me who prefer acoustic only guitars. Dave, how is having the empty can in there different from having a can with a preamp? Isn't the goal of acoustic-only to recover the internal space taken up by the can?
Maybe a removable cover on the hole without having the can in would be better. Then you could either store a whole lot more weed in there (although I think the muffled tone might give that away), or open it up and have a 'sound port' ala John's LX experiment. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by The Wabbit Formerly Known As Waskel:
qb] Dave, how is having the empty can in there different from having a can with a preamp? Isn't the goal of acoustic-only to recover the internal space taken up by the can?
Yeah I thought of that. I guess if you don't smoke weed you would just remove the can and cover the hole with Duct Tape.
Dave |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I'm merely speculating from a theoretical perspective, but I would think that the amount of record-keeping required to track production inventory married with customer information and customer defined specs would be increase costs. The preamp interchangeability feature might be an effective means of increasing after-market profits by allowing for factory-approved upgrades at customer discretion, but trying to incorporate this at the production level might be cost prohibitive. I know it works for the Adamas corner, but they have become a small-volume entirely custom shop. As was posted in another thread, Al seems to be able to coordinate one-off customs from the Ovation floor on occasion, so maybe Ovation could develop a "custom corner" for its primary line as well. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I think the cynic Schroeder is right. They are in the business of selling guitars and people buy the latest things. Having a bunch of new gizmos in the preamp may be a selling point for people to buy a new guitar. Having interchangeable preamps might cost guitar sales to those who would just buy the new preamp to put in the guitar they already had.
If you're looking for weed storage, you're on your own. I knew a few guys who were really only into photography so they could carry bunches of film cannisters. I don't know what they do now that all the cameras have gone digital. |
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| Cynic? Moi? |
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Location: Sydney, Australia | I like the basic idea of the VIP. I still don't see any reason (other than someone screwed up) why I have to plug a cable in to use the tuner.
Maybe, as has been suggested, the imaging needs to draw power from the battery. Why oh why do we need to plug in a dummy plug (and then forget to remove, draining the battery) just to operate the tuner for 60 seconds.  |
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Adamas 2008 VIP5 question