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April 2008
Posts: 2336
Location: Brighty in Blighty | Just thought you'll might be interested in how I'm going to be recording my Ovation (1537) this afternoon...
A AKG C1000s small diaphram condensor mic placed 5" from the bridge.
A Rode NT1-A large diaphram condesor mic placed 5" from the 12th fret.
Both running into a dbx 386 dual channel valve mic preamp, then in a dbx 166 dual channel compressor at 1:6 ratio.
The left channel then goes into a Lexicon MPX550 for a little "Small Church" reverb. The right channel goes into a Zoom 9210 for some hall reverb.
That's the mic'd side.
Then I run the stereo output from the pickup into a POD X3, running in dual tone mode (these signals are mixed in without any reverb.
So I have 4 sources coming from the 1537, all then blended together.
Will post a recording (if I can play the piece perfectly) later. Phew...
Left channel then goes into |
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April 2008
Posts: 2336
Location: Brighty in Blighty | Hmm. Or so I thought!
Am I supposed to use a STEREO cable in the STEREO socket on the 1537? I though that I had to use two MONO cables in each? |
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Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Stereo cable and I believe it disconnects the mono jack when it is being used. |
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Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | You need to use a send/return (tip/ring) effects type cable for the stereo out. |
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April 2008
Posts: 2336
Location: Brighty in Blighty | Thanks. In fact I have now dispensed with the output from the pickups as the sound from the 2 mics is so sweet it's over egging the pudding.
The 84C sounds lovely too so gonna try and record a couple of pieces tonight. |
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Location: Brighty in Blighty | Here ya go - new recording, Vestapol...
Listen to it here :
http://ovationfanclub.ning.com/profile/dweezil
Recorded with the '84C, just loves DADGAD, DADG#AD |
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Posts: 118
Location: Winter Haven, FL | Now that's some sweet tone and great playing. Right on! :cool: |
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April 2008
Posts: 2336
Location: Brighty in Blighty | Originally posted by KPaul:
Now that's some sweet tone and great playing. Right on! :cool: DUDE! Thanks!!!!!!!!!!
Vestapol is pretty straight forward and a great piece to tackle if you wanna get into fingerstyle, from start to this recording it only took praps about 4 hours of practice. |
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Location: Brighty in Blighty | Is this the right cable?
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=224856&C=Maplin&U=Sear... |
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Location: closely held secret | That should work.
Nice job on Foxglove, btw! One of my favorite BC instrumentals. |
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April 2008
Posts: 2336
Location: Brighty in Blighty | Thanks and thanks.
That was a pretty bad take done on my Ovation Applause! Will do a better recording when I get a cable for the 1537. Want to have 2 mics and stereo output mixed together, reckon it will sound great. Plus I can play it better since I recorded that.
I have a few more Bruce tunes I'm working on, the next one being Sunwheel Dance. |
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Posts: 777
Location: East Wenatchee, WA | WOW!!!!!!!!!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:
Makes me realize how mediocre of a playing I am.
Fantastic. I think I will be selling my 1537 now to someone with talent. |
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Location: Brighty in Blighty | Hey thanks!
But the answer is simple : keep practising... |
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Location: Utah | dweez, when you use a mic and the direct pickup there will be a phase difference because the mic signal is slightly later than the direct electronic pickup signal.
I find that I have to bump one of the signals left or right in time in order to zero out the out-of-phase sound.
I don't have a lot of experience with it, but my opinion is that it isn't worth the effort. Using two mics will give a really nice acoustic sound. Using the pickup gives a nice plugged in acoustic sound. Use one or the other. Or, record twice, one with mics and the other with the pickup. That will give a full sound without the phase problems. |
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Location: Brighty in Blighty | Cool!
I must say I'm getting better than expected results with the mics. I'll give the pups a go but I just get a weedy sound using them alone.
Gotta get two new pieces up to speed tonight for recording tomorrow. Might do mic only and pup only versions for A/B test.
Thanks for the info.
Still after that Adrian Legg sound. Methinks I need an Adamas to do it :rolleyes:
But a 06C and 87C have to come first. |
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Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Originally posted by FlySig:
dweez, when you use a mic and the direct pickup there will be a phase difference because the mic signal is slightly later than the direct electronic pickup signal.
I find that I have to bump one of the signals left or right in time in order to zero out the out-of-phase sound.
Use one or the other. Or, record twice, one with mics and the other with the pickup. That will give a full sound without the phase problems. In theory, yes, but in reality there is negligible phase error when mikes are combined with a direct signal. Even if the mikes are used at some distance from the guitar the time-error is so tiny for it to be almost undetectable. Phase problems are far more serious with 2 or more spaced microphones, especially when they are summed to mono. That's why I almost always use coincident-pair (or X-Y) miking, as it's virtually foolproof, very phase coherent and always sounds accurate as the stereo image is not exagerated. It's also very tolerant of mono-summing. It's actually petty difficult to make a bad recording using this technique. Personally I no longer use direct pickup signals in the studio. They just don't stand up well against good mics. If you get a good mike'd sound the pickup becomes redundant.
Also, recording a take with mikes and again with pickup is called (unsurprisingly) double-tracking, and is used for layering and thickening parts. Unless you are looking for that specific sound, then it's not an alternative to combining direct and miked signals. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Sounds good
Remember what Darby said in his song "Practice, Practice, Practice" |
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April 2008
Posts: 2336
Location: Brighty in Blighty | Thanks Paul,
I've been using this advice...
If you have two microphones at your disposal, put one around the 12th fret, and another around the bridge. Hard pan them left and right in your recording software, and record. You should discover that it's got a much more natural and open tone; this is really easy to explain: you have two ears, so when recording with two microphones, it sounds more natural to our brain.
Is that what you mean by coincidental pair? |
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Location: Scotland | No, that's a spaced pair. With a spaced pair the stereo effect is created by sounds arriving at each mike at different times. And that's how any phase problems may be created also, especially if the channels are played back with centre or slightly off-centre panning rather than hard L&R. Any polar pattern can be used for spaced pair recording (as long as L&R are the same type) In coincident pair recording cardioid mikes must be used. The microphone capsules are placed as close together as possible at an angle of about 45 to 60(ish)degrees to each other. Because the mikes are just about in the same physical position sounds arrive at both at the same time, so phase-error is minimised. The stereo image is created by the characteristics of the cardioid pickup-pattern. Cardioids are sensitive mostly from the front of the mike and reject from the sides and back. So sounds arriving directly from the front are picked up by both mikes equally. The mike facing right picks up sounds from the left at a lower level, and the mike facing left picks up right sounds at a lower level. It's a very simple and elegant techique. If you start by placing a pair of mikes in this configuration about 10 to 18 inches from the guitar, between the bridge and soundhole, and then experiment a little with distance and position you will not fail to get a good accurate recording. Playback should be with both channels panned hard L&R.
There's a related technique called crossed-pairs, where you make an X with the mikes, placing the capsules 3 to 5 inches apart but still pointing left to right at about 60 degrees. This widens the stereo image somewhat and is a kind of a hybrid spaced/coincident technique. |
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Location: NJ | . . also known as the "Marty Feldman". |
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April 2008
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Location: Brighty in Blighty | I'm using 2 cardioids, but was led to believe they should/could be used as a spaced pair. As long as the distance between the mics and the guitar are "right" then phasing should not be a problem.
I shall try with with the X-Y technique - thanks! |
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Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by dweezil:
I shall try with with the X-Y technique - thanks! In Virginia they have the children of married cousins hold the mics... it's the X-Y-Y technique... |
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February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Originally posted by dweezil:
I'm using 2 cardioids, but was led to believe they should/could be used as a spaced pair. As long as the distance between the mics and the guitar are "right" then phasing should not be a problem.
I shall try with with the X-Y technique - thanks! You should really have 2 mics of the same type, make and model for this technique, left and right should be a closely matched as possible (That's why stero mic kits are sold in matched pairs) Combining large diaphragm and small diaprhagm is not ideal in a coincident pair.
The Rode NT4 is essentially a matched pair on a single body.
Rode NT4 |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I was having trouble understanding Temp, as usual, but Cliff's translation made it very clear. I'll remember Marty if I ever do any recording. |
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Location: Brighty in Blighty | Oh right - as I'm getting pretty good results (at least better than I expected) then I'll continue to use the spaced pair.
Was led to believe there was good reason to have a small and a large diaphragm mic thats why I went with that combo.
Out of interest for others here's a really good link that discusses this stuff.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/newsLetter/AcousticGuitar.jsp
Interestingly that article says in regard to the spaced pair...
"The 3-to-1 rule is in effect here, strictly enforced! This technique is the most flexible, and requires the most aural concentration, but will yield some large, smooth, balanced results that translate well to mono as well, for a big, frequency-rich sound that also works well for double-tracking."
Anyhow I guess it's what you like etc and what equipment you have. As I don't have two of the same mic I'll stick with spaced pairs for now. But thanks. Interesting stuff!
And this one too...
http://www.humbuckermusic.com/acguitrectec.html
They say...
"Unless you're, say, capturing an audiophile-quality classical guitar recording -- you won't need a matched pair to record acoustic guitar tracks. In fact, you might not even need to use two of the same model of microphone (though if you do you'll get a more consistent timbre in each channel than if you had used two totally different mics). That said, rules are meant to be broken, so feel free to experiment by mixing and matching mic models. And like any musical instrument, every mic has its own sonic character, so try to get your hands on as many different models as possible and experiment."
So I might be breaking a few rules with a small and a large but whats the answer? Buy another small and another large? ARGHHHHHH!
As small-diaphragm condensers (those with a diaphragm smaller than one-inch in diameter) generally offer a better transient response than their large-diaphragm cousins, producing a less colored, more detailed sound and Large-diaphragm mics -- those featuring diaphragms at least one inch in diameter -- can also provide outstanding results when recording acoustic guitar. All other things being equal, these mics tend to offer a slower transient response than their small-diaphragm counterparts. This causes a slight de-emphasis in high-frequency detail and tends to give them a rounder, warmer sound surely mixing them together offers the best of both worlds!?
;) :rolleyes: |
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Location: closely held secret | Here\'s a bunch of discussions on the subject at StudioCentral. |
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FYI : Recording Ovation