|
|
Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 122
Location: toneville USA | just comparing how a string sounds on a pinned vs. pinless bridge...the bass strings have no crisp, new-string sound with the pinless (ebony).
it's like, when you feed them through, the windings get "filled up" or dirty with wood from the tiny holes... i tried elixers, thinking the coating would help keep the strings "clean", and even hit them with a alcohol wipe after they were on. i noticed a tiny improvement.
i usually use daddario ej16's.
my G string usually sounds new, crisp, bright as you'd expect...i've tried feeding them through slowly and carefully, this way and that.
any suggestions? anyone experience the same thing? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13987
Location: Upper Left USA | Hal,
Give your new guitar about a month of good playing. Then check back and tell if there is a difference. We have discussed this phenomena at some length. No good answers, just theory. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 176
| Unless you are using your strings as a wire saw it shouldn't have an effect. Scratch that, even if you are using your strings as a wire saw they should work fine.
I'd check the break angle over the saddle. If you have lowered the action at the saddle you've lowered the energy transfer to the top.
The first thing I'd check is the saddle itself. Is it really sitting flush against the bridge? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 122
Location: toneville USA | Originally posted by MWoody:
Hal,
Give your new guitar about a month of good playing. Then check back and tell if there is a difference. We have discussed this phenomena at some length. No good answers, just theory. thanks...but i want answers, damnit!! ;)
so others have experinced this, and it improves ? how many others besides woodrow? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 122
Location: toneville USA | Originally posted by GN-Nick:
Unless you are using your strings as a wire saw it shouldn't have an effect. Scratch that, even if you are using your strings as a wire saw they should work fine.
I'd check the break angle over the saddle. If you have lowered the action at the saddle you've lowered the energy transfer to the top.
The first thing I'd check is the saddle itself. Is it really sitting flush against the bridge? no matter what the saddle/bridge relationship is, the string should still have a crisp sound. not, loud or deep or powerful, but crisp. the angle is fine though. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6197
Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by Hal Jordan:
thanks...but i want answers, damnit!! The answer is that the ovation pinless bridge clogs the windings of your strings with wood debris that kills the sound. This is a well know issue any why a lot of people prefer Martin type pinned bridges.
To avoid this problem, what most of us due is to use a small piece of plastic protective tubing while re-strining. Get the hard kind. OD 2mm, ID 1mm. Cut about a 2 inch piece of the tubing. When stringing, slip the tube into the bridge hole from the saddle side. Push it in all the way until it stops. Then feed the string through the normal end. Once the string is completely pulled through against the stop, slide the tube off the string. Bingo, you have threaded through the bridge and not gotten it all gunked up with wood dust. You should notice an improved sound from the wound strings. Note - you don't have to go through this procedure for the plain strings.
Dave |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | I've never seen a difference between pin and pinless bridges in the sound of guitars. Taks and Lowdens that have pinless bridges sound much like their counterparts. My 2 cents although not the definitive answer you're probably looking for. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 354
Location: Flushing, MI | This is the first that I've heard about this phenomena. I've never encountered that problem on my MIK Celebrity, after about three years. Hmmm.... Regardless, I'm still a fan of this kind of bridge. I HATE dealing with bridge pins! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13987
Location: Upper Left USA | "Jedi, you will never be." "Impatient he is!"
Yoda
Dave,
Does Al carry any more of that tubing or did the Trawler get the last batch? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | I'll let you know when my Lowden gets here if the bass sounds mushy...should be here on Friday.
Dave,
Do you get a bulk rate on you tubing? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6197
Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by MWoody:
Does Al carry any more of that tubing or did the Trawler get the last batch? I don't think the actual Ovation brand tubing with the logos on it is available any more. I had to resort to standard hobby store stuff. It's about the size of that tube that goes on the WD-40 can. You buy it by the foot. I think I had about 6 feet of it, but as you know there was quite a mad rush from OFC members last year when this all became known and I think I gave it all away except what I need myself for restringing.
Dave |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 863
Location: Central Florida | Interesting... I've been around Ovations virtually all my life and I've never had this problem, or even heard of others having it until now. Not saying it isn't a legitimate problem, just funny that in all these years I've never encountered it, given all the Ovations I've had the pleasure to play and own. I don't even recall the previous thread(s) about this... I must've really been in a fog! :confused:
What I have noticed on several Ovations is a dullness, or lack of crispness, on the plain strings, paticularly when played open. I assumed that was due to the plastic nut and saddle material becoming worn over time and choaking the strings.
Jeff |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Wow, Dave! You're bringing back Memories!
I haven't seen the tubing branded with the logo in YEARS!!
After I lost mine, I had a friend whip me up a batch of replacements. He works for a company making custom lab equipment. He cut me a bunch of lengths of small diameter Pyrex tubing, then ground and flamed-polished the ends. These things are tits!!! The strings S-L-I-D-E right IN and don't get hung up on the edges! I'll have to look around and see if might have some extras layin' around for those who might be interested in one. They really work great! . . . |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6197
Location: Phoenix AZ | I could never get this technique to work well with the 12-string bridges, where 2 holes on the butt end (shut up Cliff) feed one hole on the saddle end. Someone said there was a Tech Bulletin from the service department about this (15 years ago). Anyone have a copy by any chance? Dave |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Is it Schedule 40 or Schedule 60 pvc tubing?
The custom pyrex sounds great! I've got a glass blower friend in south Jersey, from Wheaton Glass, might be able to hand blow them from leaded crystal ...maybe just for use on Adamas models. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Nunnwell up in CT (makes the Matt Smith slides) does some nice ones . . . |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 863
Location: Central Florida | So... All these years I've been stringing my Ovations incorrectly? ...The strings are supposed to be fed in through tubing? ... And Ovation used to supply said tubing? :eek:
How did I miss this?
Am I causing potential damage to my bridges by not using the tubing?
Jeff |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | I usually tell people (if they're NOT using a tube) is feed the string through SLOWLY and CAREFULLY with two hands (one on either side) about an inch or two at a time being careful that the string doesn't "scrape" the interior walls of the cavity in the saddle . . .
The tube really DOES make it go quicker, tho . . . . |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6197
Location: Phoenix AZ | Jeff, I don't think you are damaging your bridge. And I would not say the tubing technique is "standard" by any means. I think what Ovation did with the tubing was to offer an "official solution" to those who complained or cared. Basically a work-around for the A-type personalities. I think the company does a great job and has a good history in "quieting the complainers". Dave |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | And it's not a bad idea to place a card (old hotel room key works great for me or a playing card) behind the bridge to protect the top.
Seems like the right length of tube would eliminate the need to do this.
Another tip, is to bend back (fold it double) on the headstock end of the string and feed the bend through the hole this helps the string go through without getting hung up on the saddle end of the hole...again the tube would eliminate the need to do this... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Jeff, I don't understand how the tubing would help protect the top behind the bridge. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | If it is cut long enough that it sticks out behind the bridge it would "flatten out" the angle at which the string draws tight into the bridge. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Never had a problem like that. Gee, now I gotta look for more problems. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13987
Location: Upper Left USA | This would be a great time to have an "Official" Kaman answer on this one.
Dave,
I have been trying to remake the slothead guide but I think the inconel is too soft where the roller plate comes in contact. Wish I had an original Ovation Guide to copy. Sam won't let his out of his sight and Miles isn't answering his email. :( |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6197
Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by Jeff W.:
If it is cut long enough that it sticks out behind the bridge I have not been able to find tubing thin enough to stick out the back of the bridge. The stuff I use (which is my last bit of Ovation logo tubing) fits int the front side of the string hole (the saddle side) but stops up against the back edge of the hole. Btw an added benefit of using the tubing is that the string slides righ tup over the saddle (in the tube) as you thread it through. You don't have to poke down into the hole and finagle the end of the string up over the saddle which usually ends up with some blood involved, especially on that damn B string.
PS Woody - email Cliff, he has a source for harder inconel. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Here y'go, Wood:
Inconel" target="_blank" title="http://www.specialmetals.com/documents/High%20Strength%20Corrosion%20resistant%20Alloy%20686%20for%20Seawater%20Fastener%20Service.pdf#search='inconel']Inconel">http://www.specialmetals.com/documents/High%20Strength%20Corrosion%... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12755
Location: Boise, Idaho | Be careful not to scratch the bridge or the top with your tubing and keep it in a sterile container. I've found that catheter tubes work well, but not after they've been used for their intended purpose. They come in various sizes, depending on the size of your penis, so if you go in and tell them you need one for a .012, be prepared to respond to the laughter with a citation to this thread. Then be prepared to respond to more laughter.
I think I'll solve this problem by never changing my strings. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 176
| sure break angle can affect "crispness" so can an ill fitting saddle.
My Breedlove has no such issues and I've been playing them for years.
Mark, once you insert the catheter into your penis, what are you supposed to do with the strings?
This has got to be the ovation answer to the "will fossilized pteradactyl ivory bridge pins make my guitar sound better" thread. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Yes.
(but plesiosaur works better . . .) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 2150
Location: Orlando, FL | Mark, once you insert the catheter into your penis, what are you supposed to do with the strings? Nick you just wrap the Low E around the testicles and cinch 'em up tight. That way you can hit the high notes. That's why I don't sing much, too painfull. :eek: |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 122
Location: toneville USA | Originally posted by Standingovation:
Originally posted by Hal Jordan:
thanks...but i want answers, damnit!! The answer is that the ovation pinless bridge clogs the windings of your strings with wood debris that kills the sound. This is a well know issue any why a lot of people prefer Martin type pinned bridges.
To avoid this problem, what most of us due is to use a small piece of plastic protective tubing while re-strining. Get the hard kind. OD 2mm, ID 1mm. Cut about a 2 inch piece of the tubing. When stringing, slip the tube into the bridge hole from the saddle side. Push it in all the way until it stops. Then feed the string through the normal end. Once the string is completely pulled through against the stop, slide the tube off the string. Bingo, you have threaded through the bridge and not gotten it all gunked up with wood dust. You should notice an improved sound from the wound strings. Note - you don't have to go through this procedure for the plain strings.
Dave
where can i get the stuff you use????????????
again, you are the MAN dave!
best,
GL |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 4413
| It's not April 1st guys. Very clever, very cruel.
I like it. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Glad to know it's working for ya. I'm going to use an old ball point cartridge. Maybe, I can find one of the old metal kind and bend it just so, until we can the pyrex kind.
....from Cliff's connection. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Heya Schroeder,
Good to hear you're invinsible today!! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 122
Location: toneville USA | Originally posted by schroeder:
It's not April 1st guys. Very clever, very cruel.
I like it. ??? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12755
Location: Boise, Idaho | Nick,
I hope you are OK. The other guys were a little too subtle, so I decided to go over the top. At least I thought they were kidding. If everyone else was serious, this board is even more full of wackos than I thought.
My wife's great uncle used to love to talk about his catheters and gross everyone out. I decided that it would be a fun thing to do when I got old. He's the same one who had me try a pinch of tobacco just before dinner. I promptly swallowed some of the tobacco, which kept me from swallowing any of the dinner. All the prospective inlaws had a great laugh while I puked in the bathroom. I got back at them by marrying into that family. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 4413
| Just my way of saying I don't believe a word of it....... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2005
Posts: 176
| Now you tell me. Anyone want to buy a slightly used catheter? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13987
Location: Upper Left USA | My original entry was in reference to a string of posts that discussed how new guitars actually start to sound better within a month of playing. This observation was questioned and eventually covered setting your O in front of a speaker to "condition" it and align the molecules in the soundboard.
I conclude there is a "break in" period where Player and Instrument learn how to express themselves. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 1445
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada | I think it works best if the PLAYER sits in front of a good speaker for a while to condition himself instead of the guitar.
Wayne |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 2150
Location: Orlando, FL | I think there was a thread a while back about a machine that conditions guitars by subjecting them to vibrations. Supposed to be the equivalent of years of playing. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | ". . wrap the Low E around the testicles and cinch 'em up tight. That way you can hit the high notes . ."
- He's hit upon my secret for "Taxi" . . .
damn!
(although he DID leave out that you gotta hook up the end of the string to an old kick-drum foot pedal - leaves your hands free for guitar accompanyment . . .) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | That's why you winced every time you tapped your foot that night... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 122
Location: toneville USA | dave...can you tell me what you use/where to get the tubing?
thanks
GL |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Bye the way, the Lowden has a pinless bridge and Thor himself would be envious of the thunderous bass. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | But when he smacks it with his hammer, will it survive as an Ovation bowl would? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 122
Location: toneville USA | Originally posted by Jeff W.:
Bye the way, the Lowden has a pinless bridge and Thor himself would be envious of the thunderous bass. guitars with dead strings usually do sound bassier...
that's what you get with a pinless.
DAVE WHEREE ARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Deep and dead are very different things. The bass rings like a bell, just a deep dark bell, nothing dead about it...
Btw, have you tried StewMac for those string tubes? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | This is an excerpt from and email on pinless bridges I received from George Lowden....
Pin bridges which dry out during winter may 'stretch' the glue joint but only if humidity becomes very low ( with some warmth as well) and possibly combined with a more flat sawn bridge ( as opposed to 1/4 sawn) would a pin bridge actually completely dislodge itself.
However, if the above conditions are applied to a pin-less bridge where all the 'pull' of the strings is directly on the bridge itself the bridge will be more likely to come off rather than just 'stretch' the joint. It is rather rare for this to happen, and in a perverse way it is easier to repair a bridge which comes off than one which has merely stretched its joint with the top. The advantages of a pin-less bridge (enabling a more tone sensitive bracing system) are such that I aim to continue with this design in the future. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2006
Posts: 140
| I've been playing Ovations for 28 years, and I too have never heard of such a thing. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 349
Location: Snellville, GA | Get a twelve string. You have two octaves of bass...double the crispness. Or use a coffee stirrer to slide the strings in. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2004
Posts: 234
Location: Phoenix, AZ | Since this topic has risen again, I have a question. If microscopic wood chips fall into the grooves between the windings on the wound strings, wouldn't guitars makers using pinless bridges have noticed this a long time ago? Assuming Ovation is the most prevalent of these makers, wouldn't someone have noticed this 35 to 40 years ago? I can't imagine this hasn't come up in the past, if it is prevalent and so obvious. Therefore, if this is such a problem, wouldn't Ovation and the other pinless bridge guitar makers apply some sort of finish to the inside of the bridge string holes to prevent the microscopic wood particles from lodging themselves into the string winding grooves? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12755
Location: Boise, Idaho | I see someone else was really bored and ran out of goofy topics. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13987
Location: Upper Left USA | dmkozak has a valid point.
The difference must be minimal and easily covered by a handful of other subtle design differences and random acts of production. I personaly prefer pinless because it has a neater appearance, such as perfectly aligned and color coded D'addario's.
But with the Pins you have more opportunity to customize and accessorize with fossilized Walrus Tusk and abalone! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2004
Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | ahhhhhhh
fossilized Walrus Tusk and abalone
ahhhhhhhh |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Woodfiber in the string winding is bullshit... at least when it comes to effecting tone (and assuming you take some care not to pull the string through like your starting a mower). The second you put your fingers on the string you deposit skin cells, dirt and oils and wear from frets and picks is what kills string tone... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Open the pod bay door, Hal... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | "will I dream" |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | ...yes |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | I'll most likely kill you in the morning. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2005
Posts: 123
Location: Braman, OK | The solution is sooooo simple. Just sand the interior of the string holes, starting with medium-fine grit and working down to very fine sandpaper, then apply a thin layer of carbon nanotube coating... works like a charm! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13987
Location: Upper Left USA | "Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya; you killed my father; prepare to die." |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | inconnnncieeeeevable |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 228
| It's unbelievable, it's strange but true,
It's inconnnncieeeeevable it could happen to you. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 349
Location: Snellville, GA | ...to the pain! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | I am the Brute Squad. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | You seem a decent fellow. I hate to kill you. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 349
Location: Snellville, GA | You seem a decent fellow...I hate do die. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Get used to disappointment. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 349
Location: Snellville, GA | Sleep well...and dream of very large women. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 228
| I guess I don't understand.
Won't be the first time. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13987
Location: Upper Left USA | "The point, Oblio, is that everything must have a point." |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | He's just mostly dead. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | You've been mostly dead all day. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | There's a shortage of perfect breasts in this world. It'd be a pity to damage yours. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 349
Location: Snellville, GA | You just moved your finger...doesn't that make you happy? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | No more rhyming now, I mean it!!
Anybody wanna peanut? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | I've always been a quick healer. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 1116
Location: Keller, TX | Ok, that's enough of that!
(Wait for it....)
Lets go back to the beginning. :D |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | And you: friendless, brainless, helpless, hopeless! Do you want me to send you back to where you were? Unemployed in Greenland! |
|
| |
does the pinless bridge suck the snap from strings?