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| What would you all like ovation to do?? I always wondered what Ideas ovation players had.. The company has unlimited resources as far as equipment and obviously my Idea was a wooden roundback but I doubt anyone will spend 15000$ on one.. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | 12 fret cutaway, OM size slothead, non center hole, pure acoustic Adamas. Contour Bowl. Sound holes trimmed with small rosette (ala Kaki King's}
1-3/4 nut. 25-1/4 scale length
-Ovation model with red spruce top. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Get rid of the bowl. Apply all of Ovations great craftmanship to building a wooden box guitar. It would be an instant competitor to Martin and Taylor. Dave |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Adamas Slothead 12 string, 12 fret cutaway, 000 size , pure acoustic. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Adamas 6 and 12 string long neck baritone. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | All wood version would be cool too... |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | I have to admit...I secretly love some of the all-wood guitars I see out there, but I have too much loyalty to Ovation to buy anything else. |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | An all wooden ovation,now thats an idea!! Yea, i like that one!
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Location: East Tennessee | Stick with the bowl. :)
Why don't they offer the new countour bowl on all models? :confused:
I'd like to see OO or OOO size, countour bowl,OP PRO pre-amp, 12 fret, Slothead, 1 3/4" neck,
AND make it available in Sunburst finish. :cool: :cool:
Not asking too much am I? :D |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Careful with the contour bowl, it's not for everyone and everything. I own a 2005 Collectors, and there is music that I prefer to play on my 1771LX.
I'd like to see a 14-fret slothead in the Balladeer LX range as an option, both 6- and 12-string. 12-fretters have too "short" a neck for me.
Actually, I'd just like to see "Traditional" series Ovations in shops. I've never seen one, and I live in a large metro area, with several dealers.
Roger |
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Location: SoCal | 12 fret slothead (like the one on my 1773LX), cutaway, contoured bowl. A few weeks ago I would have gone for a multi hole top, but with my 1773 and my FD-14, I realize that a center hole guitar would be great as well. |
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Location: Cicero, NY | (Note to everyone outside of Moody - it's going to be months before he wipes that Christmas smile off his face!) |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | How about this one
Did the factory make this for Django Porter? |
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Location: NJ | Why do people insist on putting their NAMES on guitar tops/fingerboards?? . . . it just looks so "schvagg".
I recently saw a pic of StephenStills playing a Martin with his name emblazoned on the fingerboard in big script . . . made me lose a lot of respect for him . . .
Other than that, that's a NICE lookin' guitar!! |
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Location: boulder | adamas 2080 in 12 string
u681t/1680 in 12 string with newest preamp or acoustic only |
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| Cliff, maybe the guitar was given to him by a loved one, and he sorta has to use it occasionally. |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Dave, all kidding aside it would actually be a wondeful idea if ovation decided to compete in the wood guitar market..Its been pretty obvious to me that artist who used to use ovations are now showing up on stage with wood boxes.Nancy and Ann wilson are two that come to mind quickly.Not many former ovation endorsee's using ovations any more exept the ones who need to play drums on the graphite top while playing guitar like Kaki King and Preston Reed..I personally feel that Ovations fiberglass/plastic bowls are just not in at this time..I know my opinion may not be popular or make some happy here but IMO roundback guitars are out and wood guitars are in..So, why not Ovation become a competitor in the wood guitar market.Introduce a line with wood backs and still have the traditional roundback ovations as well..Hell ,even rainsong has a model with mahogany back.They started thinking "outside the box" why cant ovation ?
A couple of years ago i along with others here were hoping Ovation would start reissueing the old adamas models and guitars like the Josh White,Glen campbell,etc..Now im not so sure i was right or feel this was the best thing to do.I see these models in stores and they just dont do anything for me.I hoped for this just like the rest of you now i feel i was wrong .I know the reissues are mostly anniversary models but i want these reissues to be sold and to never be heard from again.I want Ovation to move forward and be innovative again,not turning back the clock.The "Q" project that never took off has shown that Ovation has fallen behind in the technology they invented.They are not even a player in the all carbon guitar market.It belongs to emerald,Rainsong and CA guitars now.How can this be ?I cant believe Ovation still has not entered this market.
Well,im sure this will ster up some conversation but thats a good thing. As most of you already know im building a all wood adamas style guitar and i obviously think it would be a great model for ovation to introduce..I would hope ovation would consider it.I have offered Ovation to look the guitar over when its completed and analize it.Its basically a prototype they didnt have to spend a nickel on.Just look at it and see what you think?
Luthier Brian Hendley of Hendley guitars with the guitar we are "sorta" copying
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Location: Waxahachie, Tx | Boy,oh boy, that Django Porter is good lookin! |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Sam, I agree with you 100% freaking percent. The roundback guitar has run its course. Ovation can still on occasion come up with a great sounding new instrument, such as the Folklore Deluxe and the U681. But as something that would revolutionize the industry and cause the other guys to change THEIR designs, the roundback didn't do it and it's never going to do it. Wooden box guitars are the default standard and are here to stay. What troubles me is that Ovation has SUCH great craftsmen and talent in house that I just KNOW they could come up with some worthy competitors to Martin and Ovation, both in terms of real performance, and perhaps even more importantly, in the court of general guitar buying public opinion. But they seem restricted from going outside the lines. I had a conversation with an employee from the factory last year and he said there was even significant objection to making the contour bowl ("don't fuck with our bowl"). If Ovation really wants to be a respected top-shelf player, then they have to have the freedom to remove the shackles. Except for us die-hards (and I'm softening fast), the world isn't looking for the next plastic bowl with figleaf holes guitar. I say, BRING ON THE BOX. Come on factory, put on your best gloves and really duke it out once and for all with Martin and Taylor. Dave |
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Location: Midland, MI | I wouldn't buy one. |
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Location: south east Michigan | Have you lost....your minds???
Should Ford start making Chevys?
Should Coke make Pepsi??
I can appreciate a nice Martin or Taylor but I don't think Ovation needs to conform to the times. Lead yes....but not conform.
Couple things....
Who would make them....and where? The Mothership looks rather filled.
Think of the type of "told ya so" signal it would sent to the wood box purists.
They already have a success to some degree with Takamine.
.
This has to be one the strangest topics I have ever read here. Well...except for the llama stuff.
And that french maid thing. |
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Location: Orlando, FL | Whether Ovations have fallen out of fashion or not, I think Ovation building a wood guitar is just not being true to the original intention and ideas. Maybe it would be nice to see Ovation innovate more but sometime sticking to what you're good at works best in the marketplace. The people who hate Ovations probably aren't going to like a wood box from Ovation any better.
Just my opinion, and you know what opinions are like, and they all stink! |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Dave, you said something very importand.Ovation has not changed or revolutionized the guitar industry.Wood guitars are still the standard.In fact Ovaytion has lost its way in the market they created and invented.While CA ,Rainsong and Emerald guiatars are pioneering the all graphite guitar market,a market that i feel will be very important in the next 10-20 years( with the depletion and restriction on certain woods).So come on Ovation dont just give us a new exotic wood top every year and call it a good year..Start thinking outside the box.
I also want to say that i find it interesting that many complain about Ovation not getting the respect they deserve and i walk into music stores and see ovations with florescent orange and purple colors and flames on them.Kinda hard to take a company serious with that crap hanging on the wall.Hell, why not put a clown nose on the bridge and mickey mouse ears on each shoulder while your at it. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Brad, You missed my point. The question was "what would you like to see Ovation build". Imagine for a moment how frustrating it might be for the engineers at Ovation when year after year they are told that they have to come up with the best possible new product and the requirements are a) it must sound great, b) it must sell well, c) it must be profitable and d) oh yeah it has to have a plastic bowl for a back. It's just my stupid opinion, but isn't it possible that JUST MAYBE if they could take off the blinders and compete with Martin and Taylor on an equal footing that they might just suceed? I would not worry one bit about "told ya so" from the woodies. Imagine what a signal it would send the industry if Ovation came out and said - screw the space age shit, we can use the same natural materials as the other guys and blow their doors off! THAT'S the Ovation spirit I'm looking for.
This is the last I'll post on this thread because I know it's just gonna spin out of control. There are very few who love Ovation as much as I do, but I'm not going to gop as far as to ignore that their may be other possible paths to success. Like I said it's just my stupid opinions. OK, if building a wooden box Ovation is out of the question that AT LEAST take a stab at a textured adamas top tenor ukulele built on a mandolin bowl. All you need to do is program up the CNC lathe to spit out a neck. Please ? |
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Location: Orange County, California | Chant it with me...
Q!...Q!...Q!...Q!... I would LOVE to play one. the fact that it shares it's name with measure of quality of a resonant system should send shivers down the spines (if they had any) of the Mar-Tay-Avee crowd. Ovation was using early FEA technology before it was propular in aero-space, let alone musical instruments. Ovation making wood-boxes would be like the Wright bros going back to bicycles... |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Brad, the original benchmark for ovation was a martin D28 and Jim Rickards pre war D45.So that was "the original intention and idea" ..So if ovation was to build a wood guitar then maybe they can accomplish what they set out to do 40 years ago..But this not what i would want from a wooden ovation.Not a copy of martin,taylor ,larrivee.I would want it to have its own unique voice and sound..
As far as the "Q" i have played two prototypes and they were pretty good but not going to send shivers up anyones spine.There is a reason why it has never been produced even though it was introduced in 1997.I dont think Ovation has ever been satisfied with it.. |
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by Standingovation:
...but isn't it possible that JUST MAYBE if they could take off the blinders and compete with Martin and Taylor on an equal footing that they might just suceed? ... As I frequently remind my boys, 'Anything is possible, it all comes down to probability.'
Yes, Ovation probably could make an all wood acoustic or acoustic-electric and compete with the GibMarTayDers of the guitar world. It would not be on an equal footing, however, as Ovation has always been the black sheep, tupperware building, plastic bending, fiberglass reinforced underdog.
How do you like your Preachers, Deacons, Vipers and Breadwinners? Was the quality of those Ovation electrics less than, the equal of, or superior to the quality of what Gibson and Fender were turning out in the 70s? How did they sell? How are they viewed now? Why do you think the result with an all wood acoustic or acoustic-electric would be any different?
Besides, if Ovation were to go that route (heh!), they'd be in direct competition with Takamine, and I highly doubt the agreement is going to allow for that. As long as I'm on that topic, how are Takamines viewed in the market? What's that? The MarTayGibDer crowd call them 'Take Mine!' But, they're superior to the A-Es that TayDerGibMar make! How can they not respect them? Oh, wait, they're imported, so they have a strike against them already...they're not starting on an equal footing. Yet, Ovation would be?
I think O should make the best damned guitar they can...by innovating. A wood box like everyone else is making is not innovation.
Maybe I'm just cynical. |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | The factory is making guitars as fast as they can. They've added more employees. What's the problem? It doesn't look like the world has lost interest in Ovations. If I want to buy a wood guitar, I have 150 brands to choose from. There seem to be plenty of people interested in Ovations to keep the Company happy. Let's get away from this negative tunnel vision. Me' I'd like to see an easily obtainable Cedar top model or two. |
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Location: North Texas | The uniqueness of the Ovation is it's Lyrachord bowl. The engineering is what gives the guitar it's resonance and projection. Why would Kamen want to produce a wooden guitar which, at best, could match the Martin/Taylor models? They could have produced one forty years ago. The company has had great success doing what they do. I don't see the incentive for producing the same basic product that hundreds of other established guitar builders are manufactoring. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Let's face it...
Carbon Fiber is going to be the new standard (until we develop biological membranes suitable for instruments)...
Many stringed instruments are now being made of CF; Bass, Cello, Viola, Violin...There are many classical musicians playing these instruments as I type.
Guitar will follow.
"Q" should be the Ovation of 1968 in 2007 |
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Location: North Texas | I don't know what the "Q" is, but if it sounds good I'm all for it. |
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Location: Orange County, California | Bill,
Where's that pic of the Q you put up before? |
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Location: Orange County, California | Originally posted by bauerhillboy:
The factory is making guitars as fast as they Me' I'd like to see an easily obtainable Cedar top model or two. My local GC has the Baladeer Special with an inlaid rosette and Cedar top for $699. I took a noob into the "expensive room" with it, and HE was astonished that it sounded every bit as good as a $2799 Taylor with a cedar top. It also had more warmth and a different character than just about every other O in the place. The only other really unique voice they have is an '05 collectors. |
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Location: San Bernardino, California | http://www.ovationfanclub.com/photos/cliff_31449_q10.jpg |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | You guys have hit on it....Ovation should be innovating into an all-carbon-fiber guitar as fast as they can. Wood is not the future. Carbon fiber is.
If Ovation came out with an all-wood guitar they would be LAUGHED AT. It's like the dorky kid that suddenly buys "cool" clothes to try to fit in at school....it doesn't work.
The direction should be a "box guitar" shape with "normal" sides and back, but in carbon fiber. OK, maybe contour the back a bit. THAT is the direction they should go.
An all-wood roundback is also a valid direction, but with shrinking wood supplies, plus cost of production, a waste of time, I'm afraid.
All I know is every time I go to Elderly, I play the all-carbon Rainsongs (they are next to the Os), and I really like them.....
Roger |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | I think this is one of the better topics weve had here in a while.Lots of good thoughts thrown around .Heres another thought.If Ovation was to offer traditional wood back guitars and make them a stand alone line like "Adamas" and still offer its traditional roundback models for those die hard ovation fans then who have they hurt? no one..The line could be as follows.
1-Ovation traditional roundback line
2- Adamas models (graphite top)
3- A all graphite model line (like CA or rainsong)
4-traditional wood side and back guitars with ovation single soundhole and muliti soundhole design.Have distinct ovation features like leaf rosette and apelettes,carved trus covers and bridges.. |
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Location: closely held secret | I like it, Roger. I prefer the sound of Adamas over Rainsong, and would really be excited to see what they could do with an all-fiber guitar.
I don't like the sharp edges of a box guitar. But a box guitar with softly rounded edges (ShutUpWhitehead!) would be much more comfortable.
Now, what if they put the bowl inside the box to take advantage of the acoustic properties? |
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Location: Utah | I'd love to see a solid body electric. It's a tough market, though. But I think that there is a real market for a more upscale fit-and-finish type of electric that would be played by aging enthusiasts, whereas most electrics seem to appeal to the teenager. |
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Location: SoCal | Hamer |
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Location: Utah | Originally posted by samova:
I also want to say that i find it interesting that many complain about Ovation not getting the respect they deserve and i walk into music stores and see ovations with florescent orange and purple colors and flames on them.Kinda hard to take a company serious with that crap hanging on the wall.Hell, why not put a clown nose on the bridge and mickey mouse ears on each shoulder while your at it. Sam, I think you are missing the marketing aspect of the flame tops. My 13 yr old daughter needed a new guitar and was instantly sold on the Elite T due to the red flame top. Bammo! Ovation created a new customer. She categorically rejected the textured top Elite T, btw.
Had the guitar been for me, I would have chosen one of the nicely inlaid natural wood topped guitars. (We'll ignore for now the fact that I play her guitar daily...)
I don't think that there is a problem with a company marketing to several demographics. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Originally posted by Waskel:
I don't like the sharp edges of a box guitar. But a box guitar with softly rounded edges (ShutUpWhitehead!) would be much more comfortable. Ehh...err...ah.... |
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Location: Midland, MI | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
Hamer Second that, if you're in the Gibson market. If you're in the Fender market, try G&L (yeah, I'm a recent convert, so sue me). |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I'm with Flysig. Although my daughter may be a little less radical than yours, she really wanted a green guitar, since green is her favorite color. The Celebrity Deluxe in Nutmeg Quilted Maple may not have been her first choice and would not have been mine, but it was good enough to make her Christmas and hence mine. Ovation will probably now have another lifelong fan. She also believes that the roundback is much more comfortable for women.
Ovation needs to have some bling to appeal to the youngsters. |
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| I would like to know why You think it would be so expensive to produce a wooden round back???? really????? Certainly if some like myself was going to make one it would take a great deal of time. I'd need to do this with power tools held by hand and constant monitoring of my work using large calipers. And therefore the great expense....that is if I needed to make one to sell. One for myself would be a labor of love.
But at the factory.... I am quite sure you could come up with a great laminating jig and an automated cutting machinethat would cut the inside and outside shapes to very close tolerances and then a few minutes worth of light sanding and shaping by hand to send it on to the finishing room?? A body like this should not be much more labor intensive than say an adamas 1 neck.
For something completely new and something no other company has.... tool up.... and make some of these real nice laminated wood bowl backs! The colors of the strips would be endless. You could use up some scrap wood like this as well?? I would be very, very curious to see what a wood back would sound like through a carbon top??
If you make these I want the first one!
My request is a matching Adamas 1 Carbon Top matching 5 string Bass, and 6/12 Guitar set. in the original #7 color with a bowl made from laminations of maple and walnut. And the marketability aspect of this, is this (for me anyway) and I'll bet a few more...I'd sell all my older Ovations to fund a purchase such as this..there is no other guitar made anywhere that could get me to do this! Think about it.... you make a guitar that has the old Adamas 1's beat and you'll get guy's like me to buy a brand new factory made guitar. Now that just has to be a thought worth something to the board room??? A very big part of your higher end American guitar market already owns the guitars they plan to keep until they are gone. If you want new purchases from this market then you'll have to give them something that is over the top???? I just can't imagine how beautiful a black custom legend with all the MOP inlays would be with an ebony round back!!!... I'd bet you'd get a bunch of guy's selling their old Legends to come back to the factory for one of these!
Randy
Ohhh yeah I want the "planets" inlays in the necks as well. ! not asking to much am I?? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by Waskel:
Now, what if they put the bowl inside the box to take advantage of the acoustic properties? I actually proposed that about 4 years ago (some place in the Vault). Make it LOOK like a traditional guitar on the outside, but use the space age plastics on the inside.
Dave |
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Location: Cicero, NY | I've got a bit of a question too - at the outset of this thread (which I also think is a good one), along with a few of what seems to be relatively standard (12 fret, slothead, etc.), a couple of the guys specifically mentioned "pure acoustic". My question - why "pure acoustic"? Why wouldn't you make a great sounding acoustic guitar, then drop good electronics into it? I would agree that electronics never seem to capture the true essence, but wouldn't it still be pretty darn good for an a/e? |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Weight and pre amps do effect the way air moves inside the guitar. |
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Location: Cicero, NY | No question, and I may be showing some "inexperience" here but, that significantly? Would it turn an outstanding acoustic into a lesser a/e? |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | If you think in terms of volume (space not sound) and the area that the pre amp occupies as a ratio of the total volume of the box, you get a pretty significant percentage of the box that isn't contributing to sound... |
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Location: closely held secret | Maybe 5%? |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Like it or not, the market would not understand Ovation pure acoustics. It would be a waste of time and money for KMC to go that direction. I believe the sales numbers have already spoken....the acoustic only models have been gone for several years.
This is not to say that I wouldn't like to SEE more acoustic only models....but it is unlikely to be feasible from a sales standpoint.
I'd like to see wooden roundbacks, too, but I believe the cost would be pretty high from the labor aspect, even with mass production. Plus the warranty on all the glue joints compared to a molded bowl would be much higher.
Waskel's idea of "clothing" a bowl in a box guitar shape is definitely INTRIGUING. Wonder what that would do overall to sound.
Roger |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Weaser P:
Would it turn an outstanding acoustic into a lesser a/e? No, but it would turn an outstanding acoustic into a lesser acoustic. |
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Location: Midland, MI | Hrmm, I like the all CF idea. A roundback, one continuous piece of woven mat...I wonder how that'd be accomplished. Lost foam? Wrap the mat around the plug, wait for the resin to harden, then melt the foam out? |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Take market share away from the Tacoma Papoose. Build an A-tuned guitar, with more portability. |
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Location: North Idaho | Originally posted by an4340:
Take market share away from the Tacoma Papoose. Build an A-tuned guitar, with more portability. I've wondererd why haven't they just put a different neck on the mandocello body already? |
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Location: North Idaho | The 12 fret; slot head; cutaway; deep bowl adamas really grabs my attention. Make mine PURPLE. I've always wanted a purple guitar in a top model. |
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| "I'd like to see wooden roundbacks, too, but I believe the cost would be pretty high from the labor aspect, even with mass production. Plus the warranty on all the glue joints compared to a molded bowl would be much higher."
Old Applause Owner;
If you don't mind hearing my take on this twice??? I would like to mention....Glue joints are often stronger than the wood that surrounds them. It would take some very high tolerances for consistancy in the glueing process but these guy's at the factory are very good and the equipment they have is fantastic. Laminated wood products are always stronger and more stable than a solid piece of wood. And I think Ovation guitars already have spruce tops that have warranty issues. And traditional guitars have always done quite well with very thin wood backs and sides that seem to hold up just fine. Laminated hard woods would be inherently stronger in a test of durability. Of this I am certain.
The labor costs could be reduced very quickly once a pattern was made that the machines could reproduce time and time again. They make machines that would lift this glued shape in the air and a bit that could carve out the interior shape in a few minutes then flip the piece over and carve the outside as well. After that it is only a matter of some simple sanding and a nice finish.
If the price is a little higher that's OK thats the idea! A top of the line product that can command a flagship price! I am not suggesting Ovation stop making plastic backs???? All this would be is another option the factory could offer like the shaped backs they have now. And what an option! Youd silence the idiots that always like to mention the word "Plastic" when they talk about Ovations.
I appreciate your doubts, I have a few myself, so forgive me for saying this, but I will wait and see what the guy's at the factory have to say first before I have agree with you on this one.
I still have my fingers crossed.
Randy |
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Location: Omaha, NE | This is a really interesting thread. Reading through the comments, it seems like "what I'd like to see Ovation make" is often the same as "what I think Ovation needs to make in order to gain more respect". Since the home page to the Ovation Fan Club states, first, "Ovation Guitars really don't get the respect they deserve!", this seems to be a common thing.
Here's my take on it. Brands have identities, that unmistakable "sense" that consumers have about them. If I say "BMW", you automatically think "Upscale, German, Sporty". If I say eBay you think "on-line auction"...and if I say Ovation you think "round back guitars". Or maybe you think "plastic guitars". That's just what Ovations are.
It would be impossible to change that, and why would you want to? If you want to sell more guitars, you would be better off creating a new brand from scratch than to try to fundamentally re-do "Ovation". Some of the comments in this thread here seem to me like people are saying "make guitars just like Martin, only better, and then call them Ovations, and people will finally see that Ovations are good". What's the point in that?
I read an interview (I think on this site) by Bill Kaman where he described Ovations as the F150's of the guitar world. Working guitars for working musicians. Guys that are playing weddings at the Holiday Inn on Saturday afternoon, and then have to tear down and drive over to the bar for their night gig. Ovations give them a sturdy, reliable guitar with good amplified sound and a nice appearance under stage lights.
I think they are just too thoroughly entrenched in this market, but there are still some things I think they could and should do:
1) Might be too late for this, but I think they should sunset the multi-hole design for wood top guitars. I thought the Adamas guitar was supposed to be special? How can it be special when it looks just like a $400 import?
2) Bring in a designer, and integrate the design of their guitars with their marketing. I look at the new Adamas with the teardrop soundhole, and I'm just confused. Are they saying that the teardrop sounds better, or are they saying that it looks better? I thought the Ovation ethos was "form follows function". Is that still true?
3) Place a higher emphasis on custom guitars. The nature of the Ovation guitar's construction lends itself far better than wood box guitars to modular design. Pick your neck, pick your fingerboard, pick your tuning machines, pick your top, pick your bowl, pick your pre-amp. If you really want to get fancy, in the era of CNC they could offer custom fingerboard lettering inlays. This is a market that Ovation could OWN.
4) This is similar to #2, but figure out a way to separate the "high end" Ovation line from the appearance based models like the flame and the American flag pait jobs. Those guitars might look cool (depending on your point of view), but they detract from Ovation's ability to be taken seriously as a maker of high end guitars.
Jeff |
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Location: Phoenix, AZ | Originally posted by cliff:
I recently saw a pic of StephenStills playing a Martin with his name emblazoned on the fingerboard in big script . . . made me lose a lot of respect for him . . . Uh, wouldn't that actually be the Martin Steven Sills Signature model? |
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Location: south east Michigan | Nicely stated Jeff!
There are many options and inovations Ovation can offer without giving up in the bowl.
The LYRACORD bowl. |
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Location: NJ | Nah, I don't think so . . .
I've seen the Stills SigModel before and it had a small inlayed signature on it . . . THIS one had a BIG signature going along the length of the neck in a generic "BrushScript" font . . .
ATHOUGH . . .
They DID mention in the corresponding article that Stills was working with Martin on something four(?) more Martin SS models. . . |
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Location: south east Michigan | Nicely stated Jeff!
There are many options and inovations Ovation can offer without having to give up on the bowl.
The LYRACORD bowl.
And they are doing different things. Things like the LX features, which everyone likes to the the flame tops which are an acquired taste.
Perhaps because this is the 40th anniversary Ovation is taking a look back into their history. But I don't doubt that they have an eye on the future. At least until the 50th anniversary...then...look out. |
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Location: SoCal | One of the major points that this board has always hit on is the visual separation of the imports from the USA built guitars. In their latest literature, they make this distinction. But it's still not made in the stores. And in GC's, the expensive US built models are still up high and the cheap Korean ones are still down where people can grab them......
This is an ongoing problem. |
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Location: NJ | Regarding the WoodenBoxGuitar debate:
I don't think it'd be a viable venture for Ovation to persue.
It'd involve a considerable amount of re-tooling to support an entirely DIFFERENT assembly process (and there's not a whole lot of open floor space at the Factory t'do this.
It also has the potential of putting out the wrong message:
". . Y'know, . . maybe we were WRONG about this whole "roundback-thing" . ."
After doing something that you've believed in for 40 years, and then do a 180 kinda gives the impression that maybe y'don't what the f@ck your doing . . .
NOW . . . that being SAID:
. . . Do a limited production of boutique-quality wood-box guitars. Top-of-the-line materials, innovative design/assembly techniques, killer finishes, etc. . . .
. . . and label 'em "Hamer".
You're building on an already-established, recognizeable name of quality, hi-end guitars while still offering something "new" (as far as I know, Hamer never did acoustics), and just MIGHT generate a degree of "excitement" . . . |
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| DANG!!! Im always startin stuff.. Hope i dont get my ass beat???? |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Thank you for being you! |
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Location: south east Michigan | . . . and label 'em "Hamer".
If just had to be done...there ya go!
Those Hamer guys are wood wizards as it is. |
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Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by cliff:
It also has the potential putting out the wrong message:
". . Y'know, . . maybe we were WRONG about this whole "roundback-thing" . ." A good example is when Toyota decided they needed to create an entirely new brand (Lexus) in order to get into the high end car market. The Toyota brand image (affordable, quality cars) was so thoroughly baked into the marketplace that there was no way they could change it.
Ovation has the same issue, only more so. In the guitar market, "Ovation" means "roundback". Ovation only makes roundbacks, and only Ovation makes roundbacks. For better or worse, that is a settled issue.
I think there is a great future for roundback Ovation models. But I don't think we can expect roundbacks to become "respectable" any time soon. There is a huge disconnect between the Ovation approach to guitars and the current market.
Transportation gives us the perfect example (I am going to massively over-generalize here, but you'll see my point). Consumers consider cars utilitarian, and they consider motorcycles to be toys. So, the things that you see first in people's minds when buying cars (reliability, safety, durability) are the farthest things from their minds when buying motorcycles (the look for fun, style, a sense of community with other riders).
So, even though the process of designing and building cars and motorcycles is superficially similar, they are completely different in practice. Ovation's core problem has always been and continues to be that they are trying to sell "cars" to the "motorcycle" market.
The aerospace industry is ruthlessly practical. Engineering in general tends to be pretty prosaic, and engineering flight systems is even more so. This is the ultimate climate of the practical. Everything is measured by results. And that's the culture from which Ovation emerged.
Guitars are really different. Go over to the Acoustic Guitar forum and observe how people will discuss endlessly (and lovingly) the subtle differences in tone associated with the slightest difference in materials or construction. While there is probably some truth to most of those differences, the reality is that at most one player in 100 could actually hear some of these difference in a blind test.
So, you are never going to win an argument with (for example) a Martin owner that your Ovation is better. That's like telling the guy with a Harley Davidson that your Chevy is more practical. And you certainly aren't going to convince him that your Ovation sounds as good or better than his Martin based on the results of your laser vibrometer analysis. He didn't buy for utilitarian reasons in the first place. Your not speaking his language at all.
What this all boils down to is that the only thing Ovation needs to add to their guitars is love. Look at the LX literature. Its nothing but a list of features ("original patented pickup", "lightweight lyrachord bowl"). Where's the love? Where's the passion? Where's the sex?
Jeff |
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Location: SoCal | Jeff's points are good. All of which in my mind, bring us back to advertising that's going to hit people at home, not on stage. It's been said countless times in the past, but Taylor has great advertising. Ovation doesn't. Taylor markets their gutiars to the people sitting on their front porches, Ovation doesn't. Taylor can get away with charging $2500 for a "decent" guitar. Ovation can't. |
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Location: south east Michigan | And there's yet another thoughtful & precise entry from Jeff. |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | So, campfire sing-along pictures of Ovations along with copy on how it stayed in tune all night long.
Storys of using an Ovation to bash in a drunks head and keep on playing in tune.
And, most important, testamonials on being the loudest player at the acoustic guitar jam.
;)
Just a poet in an ad guys body.... |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Stick with the bowl. Make the A tuned instrument. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | A men! |
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Location: Upper Left USA | An "A" scaled slothead mini-contour bowl with single bass side teardrop hole. go with a slightly wider fretboard and pop in an OP Pro.
Make the body shape more mandolin like and toss in a cedar top!
Did I mention the abalone inlay around the body? |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Or better yet...
a Koa top! |
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Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | As chairmen mao said: Let a thousand flowers bloom.
Remember what happened to the flowers. |
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Location: Phoenix, AZ | Okay, my seed, fwiw, color impregnate the Adamas carbonfiber tops. I don't why, but I'm under the impression Reeves Callaway could offer some assistance in this area. |
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| Moody, I wouldn't give $2500 for a Taylor if it was gold-plated...but I would pay New Hartford as much if they would construct me one of these...
Longneck scale
5-piece neck
Ivory nut
Unbound Ebony fingerboard
Stainless fret wire
Side-only fret markers
Mid-bowl
Cutaway
Center soundhole
SMT top
Tobaccoburst finish
Ebony bridge
Compensated saddles
Jazz setup
OP-Pro
XLR/Phono jacks
Steve |
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| "So, even though the process of designing and building cars and motorcycles is superficially similar, they are completely different in practice. Ovation's core problem has always been and continues to be that they are trying to sell "cars" to the "motorcycle" market."
Nice posts Jeff by the way...
I do not know why but I guess I see things completely differently?
To me.... Ovation is doing it right.....They are selling Motorcycles to the Auto Market....
I see the bowl backs and the multiholes a real fun approach (motorcycles). I consider the traditional guitars the utilitarian approach ( Automobile) er. the comments about how the old standard is the way to go.....no use in making a new style (If God wanted us to have bowl backs he would have given us plastics before wood attitude) Who said Guitars are supposed to be fun.... They should be taken very seriously!
Now that is the way I see the guitarists and the market. And I also see a wood laminated bowl back as a real kick ass rub to the traditionalists who spout the seven sins of plastics when describing guitar construction. I think it would be fun to have a striped hardwood bowl. Like a custom Motorcycle.
But hey I could be wrong.... I often am?
Randy |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Interesting stuff!
BTW - the Wooden Roundback (may appear soon)sends as much sound out the back as it does the front! |
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Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by northcountry:
To me.... Ovation is doing it right.....They are selling Motorcycles to the Auto Market....
I see the bowl backs and the multiholes a real fun approach (motorcycles). I consider the traditional guitars the utilitarian approach As with all analogies, this one only gets you so far.
My meaning is more like this: Harley Davidson makes a point of selling motorcycles based on "old" technology. Their customers are traditionalists. At a glance, a 2006 Harley model does not look significantly different than a 1936 model.
Look at a 2006 Chevy and compare it to a 1936. Big difference.
Why? Because the more utilitarian nature of cars has driven functional improvements during that period of time. Motorcycles, being (by and large) recreational have not had the same performance pressures*.
In the 1960's, Ovation came forward and said "we can apply modern engineering and materials to the guitar. We can make a guitar that is better than before (or, if you prefer, we can make a guitar that is just as good for the same price)."
Of course, that meant that they had to define "good", which they did in the form of a Martin D-28. So, they set out to create a guitar that was made using modern techniques that sounded "just as good" as a Martin.
Setting aside for the moment the question of whether or not they succeeded, the more interesting question is "does the market want such a guitar"? Put another way, Ovation decided that some attributes (ie, sound and tone) were what the market wanted preserved, and other attributes (ie, appearance and shape) were what the market was willing to change.
What if that wasn't right? What if the market was really more interested in style than sound? Of course, you will never get a guitarist to say that, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. Extending the analogy, suppose a motorcycle company came out with a new motorcycle that promised all of the performance of today's Harley models, but with a silent, electric motor. Might be a cool thing to own, but I wouldn't expect today's Harley rider to be impressed. They appear to be as interested in the sound their exhaust makes as anything else.
I think that sums up where Ovation has been and where it is going. There was a certain segment of the guitar playing market that was agreeable to the basic "new technology is good" message that Ovation brings, but a significant segment of the market finds the whole notion to be completely foreign to the vernacular of the guitar.
Which gets me back to my last post, where I said Ovation needs some passion. The roundback design is mature enough now. Anyone who is even remotely familiar with guitars knows what Ovations are. The challenge now is to change the association from "Ovations = high tech guitars for engineers" to "Ovations = a new kind of guitar we can get passionate about".
And this is the most important part: STOP TELLING ME THEY ARE BETTER!! That approach just completely misses the point. You would have as much luck telling the recreational Harley rider that your functionally equivalent electric motorcycle is better than his Hog. No sale. In fact, it is remotely insulting, because it demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of what the consumer wants in a motorcyle (or guitar).
Crafting the message is a tough challenge. At first glance, I continue to think that Ovation's natural advantage in the world of "factory customs" is a good place to start. Forget "Ovation = roundback". How about "Ovation = custom"?
Jeff
*Of course, every generalization has its exceptions. The Japanese sell a fair number of performance oriented machines that look nothing like Harleys. But they also sell a large number of machines styled to look /just/ like Harleys. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | What amazes me is that the younger crowd that seems to be so high tech in some departments like video games seem to be traditionalist old fogeys when it comes to acoustic guitars. Maybe Ovation and I both don't understand this generation's value system.
I admit to my own inconsistencies. Cars shouldn't be made out of fiberglass, but it was OK for guitars. I liked wood boats, but fiberglass made a lot more sense there. |
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| Wow....Jeff!!!! I am all tired out now. All I was saying is was your analogy of fun verses utilitarian was reversed?? But that was just my take on it??? This thing is turning into a "higher academic super thought" I just think Ovations are the "FUN" guitars?
Pretty simple concept. Academically it is not really worth the time it takes to type it.
??
Ahhhhhhhh Mike.. That was quite the bomb shell!! You mean they are already doing this!
Fantastic!
I knew they would see my point!
Randy |
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Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
What amazes me is that the younger crowd that seems to be so high tech in some departments like video games seem to be traditionalist old fogeys when it comes to acoustic guitars. That's right. I think the thing to remember is that people rarely buy technology for its own sake. They buy technology when it furthers the value proposition of the underlying product.
Here's a thought: Any product where really old examples are highly sought after, not simply because they are old and collectable but because it is generally thought that they were made better "back then", is probably a poor candidate for a high-tech infusion. String instruments seem to have a lot of that (eg, pre-War Martins, Loyyd Lear Gibson mandolins, Stratavarius violins).
I wonder why that is? Can you think of other items that have a similar "older is better" thing going on?
Jeff |
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Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by northcountry:
I am all tired out now. All I was saying is was your analogy of fun verses utilitarian was reversed?? But that was just my take on it??? Sorry. I didn''t mean to come across as contrary. I just took the opportunity to expand on my earlier post.
Jeff |
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Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado | Hey Folks
This may be the most interesting thread I've read in years. As an Ovation owner from pretty far back (74), I can remember that, for a time, ANYbody you saw on TV or live used an Ovation. I think because it lent its self so nicely to an amplified stage environment and Ovation was aggressively marketing to the well known acts. To use an automotive analogy, "Race on Sunday - Buy on Monday". Other makers picked up on this and took away a big share of that market. Please don't anyone take offense to this, but I believe Ovation lost their market with the arrival of Adamas. Ovations at least looked like a regular guitar from the front, but Adamas, as wonderful an instrument as they are, looked like something else.
Seemed like that was the time you started seeing less and less Os on TV and more conventional boxes being played.
In my very humble opinion, going to a conventional body would be a step backwards. I would more like to see a very top of the line round back with a conventional sound hole. If they wanted to try something a little more high tech they could introduce something like a carbon fibre neck. Then I would like to see them, once again, become aggressive in promoting with big names. I've known some "big name" acts throughout my career, and most of them know less about what guitar they're playing than most of us do. It's more about the best offer than the best equipment. Then again, maybe we are looking for the goose when we should just be happy we have the golden egg. Apparently, Ovation is happy with their product line and keep churning out tens of thousands each year. Making a good bottom line I'm sure. We may be asking for more than they're willing to give.
Unless someone comes up with a really radical, new idea, like the round back was, I believe we won't see much change in the market.
Then again, I'm just an old guy who doesn't really know squat about the guitar making industry.
I may F.O.S..
Cc |
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Plant a seed