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Location: Phoenix, AZ | Brother Bobby has a Custom Legend contourback on the Bay. It's just like Dave's, EXCEPT Brother Bobby's has the removal access hole cover on the back, like on an Elite, which Dave's didn't. Did the Factory just use an Elite contourback on this Custom Legend, or are all contourbacks now coming with the rear access hole? Anyone know? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Odd. Can't imagine why you would need the rear access. I notice that it has no serial number on the back of the headstock either. Anyway, still a super nice guitar. In my opinin the best wood topped Ovation currently available. I've got a new one coming from the factory (via Al) some time in the next few months so it'll be interesting to see if it has the rear door or not. I'm kind of hoping it has the door so I can do the white adamas/elite modification. That would be really unique on a center hole guitar. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | RE:
"white adamas/elite modification."
What is that, Dave? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Owners of elite and adamas guitars sometimes take the rear hatch door and spray paint the inside of it with gloss white Kylon paint. It's supposed to improve the interal sound reflections within the guitar. I have done it on some of mine. Difference is slight, but noticable. I forget who came up with the idea. It was posted here way back in the early OFC days. Dave |
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Location: south east Michigan | Are you talking about spraying just the bowl, just the top, or both? |
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| Thats cool. I never heard of that one before. |
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Location: NJ | I smell StringTubes, here . . . |
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Location: SoCal | I love the smell of string tubes in the morning.... |
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Location: Central Florida | This is not to speak disparagingly of Brother Bobby, I think he's an honest dealer, but I've noticed he sometimes "cuts corners" when posting pics in his listings. In other words, he sometimes uses "generic" detail shots (ie: headstocks, rear views, close ups, etc.) to represent the actual guitar being auctioned.
I'd say, in all likelyhood that CL does not have a rear access panel. My guess is BroBobby needed a rear view shot of an Ovation for this listing and just used the first one he ran across, not realizing the presence of the access panel and the confusion it would cause.
Then again, I don't claim to be any kind of expert, especially on the newer stuff, so please, don't take mine as the last word. I'm just offering a quasi-educated guess. |
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Location: Central Florida | Originally posted by cliff:
I smell StringTubes, here . . . I agree! :D |
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Location: NW NJ | Anybody got a good source for bulk string tube? The guy I bought my last 100' roll from can't get it anymore, and since you have to replace the tubes every time you restring, I'll need another roll sometime in the next millenium or so ... |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by Slipkid:
Are you talking about spraying just the bowl, just the top, or both? Only spray the inside of the access cover. I actually tape off the outer 1/2 inch or so (the part that rests on the bowl whe it is secured. Like I said the difference is not huge. Dave |
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Location: Scotland | Dave, you are joking, aren't you? |
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Location: SoCal | You have to ask...? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Hey I don't know the origin of this (like I said it was recommend by someone else awhile back). But think about it, if you remove the rear door the sound goes to shit so that tells you that the rear door has a significant effect on sound. So is painting the inside of the door with a highly reflective and hard surface like Kylon such a far fetched idea? It was convincing enough that I tried it and damn if it didn't work!
Now, beware. I also had the great idea to try this on my Legend which of course has no rear door. I just reached inside with a spray can and gave the whole inside a shot. Unfortunately it also painted the underside of the soundboard which pretty much killed the sound. Also it buggered up the input jack connection on the 1/4 inch female plug. I do not recomend trying this.
Dave |
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Location: south east Michigan | Grrrr. I hate being unassumeing and innocent. I come to expect a certain level of reliablity and expertise from someone only to find that it was all a convoluted plot to lull me into a false sense if security. |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | ....Dave has stock in Krylon! |
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Location: NW NJ | Hey Brad - paint thinner oughta take it off ... |
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Location: NJ | ". . paint thinner oughta take it off . ."
Not Krylon (especially on any kind of plastic).
Krylon's got MethylEthylKetone in it (or used to).
Becomes part of the plastic.
Used to use it all the time to do psuedo-airbrush effects on vinyl vehicle graphics . . . |
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Location: Scotland | Erm, no Dave I'm afraid that is a placebo effect. You want to hear something, so you think you are hearing a difference. Removing the rear door has a significant affect because it completely changes the helmholtz resonance of the air-cavity. That's one of the reasons why single epaualet and dual epaulet Adamas cutaways sound different, and the reason why feedback buster soundhole bungs work - change the size of the soundhole(s) and you change the sound of the instrument.
I don't want to be a smart ass, but the reflection or absorption properties of materials are conditioned by among other factors, mass, rigidity, shape and thickness. The reflection or absorbtion properties of any object are directly proportional to the incident wavelengths. Put simply, thin materials can only reflect or absorb high frequencies. The upshot is, that adding a layer of paint to a surface may affect it's acoustic properties, but the wavelengths it will affect will be so incredibly short (i.e. high) as to be way beyond a 40-odd year old human ear. I used to teach this shit to post-grad level, so I know. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
Removing the rear door has a significant affect because it completely changes the mass, rigidity, shape and thickness. You need to go to graduate school to learn this? Heck, 60 seconds of porno on TV and I'm already a PhD.
Seriously, would it matter if the paint was any other color than white?
Dave |
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Location: Scotland | Try Stucco in a nice shade of plaid, it'll work on a wider range of frequencies. |
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Location: NJ | ". . Does this white condom make my dick look bigger?? . ."
- Dave Witko |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Cliff, It's not white. It's called "pearlescent". Just like the epaulets on the ME guitar ... |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
I don't want to be a smart ass, but . . . This was the only part of Paul's post I didn't believe. |
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Location: Connecticut | I haven't seen any contour bowl Custom Legends or any other soundholes come through with an access door in the back. I'll keep my eyes open and let you all know if I do. |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Just curious why you need to use gloss WHITE Krylon???? Does gloss white Krylon result in a harder surface than gloss black???? That white area inside the guitar would bug me (not easily seen, I realize, but probably slightly visible from above while playing).
Roger |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Flourescent pink is most reflective, or so I've heard. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | And didn't Dave say a few threads back that he didn't have any multihole Os? Mine all have this metal x bracket in them that would be really hard to paint around. |
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Location: SoCal | gloss WHITE Krylon
In Phoenix, with the high temps, combined with Witko's hot air - need the white to reflect the heat. |
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Location: Wooster, Ohio | Paint the inside of the trap door? That consists of resin surface and foam under the metal clip that secures the door. Painting all of that?
Steve |
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Location: Waurika OK | Just be sure not to use paint like that used on the F 117 or B2, if you do absolutely NO SOUND will ever escape from the guitar again. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
And didn't Dave say a few threads back that he didn't have any multihole Os? Mine all have this metal x bracket in them that would be really hard to paint around. Mark, you are correct that I don't have any multi hole O's (very observent on your part). But I've got plenty of multi hole ADAMAS!
The first one I did I was really anal and removed the X piece and foam before painting. The others I just shot the whole thing with paint. You can't see it inside the guitar no matter what kind of angle you look in.
Dave |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | I knew that you had Adamas. I pay attention to what you say, even if it is BS. I was just testing the rest of the group. If I can get to your place next month, it might be my first opportunity to play an Adamas, if you'll let me. |
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| Does the paint have to be white? |
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| Does the paint have to be white? |
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| Does the paint have to be white? |
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Location: Scotland | you're joking too, right? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I believe that not only does it have to be white. But it needs to be applied in 3 applications. Each application must be done as follows:
1st application - spray on long smooth strokes
2nd application - spray in a circular pattern
3rd application - pattern it like a celtic knot
Dave |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | .....and only play Celtic songs on it, in DADGAD tuning....
If we used the paint from the F-117A and B-2, the guitar would disappear, never to be seen again....
OK.....white is the most reflective color of energy, that is a true statement---that is why white is used to keep areas as cool as possible in the summer sun. But I think the hardness of the surface that the sound energy is reflected from is probably more important than the color.
And.....let's throw this red herring into it....what does just painting the DOOR do to the sound?....now you don't have an evenly reflective surface. The door will theoretically give better return than the rest of the bowl. There would be an alteration in the normal sound patterns.
My feeling is, there actually may be something to this...but it isn't likely to make any real difference in perceived sound. I vote we adjourn and go play our guitars......
Roger |
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Location: NJ | You're such a Tool, Witko . . .
(btw; a CD is on it's way to your house . . . try not to paint it) |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | One last comment in response to Roger, then I'll pull the plug on this before someone actually does spray paint theor whole friggin guitar and blame it on me!
Roger states that painting just the door is not a good idea because it leads to an uneven interior reflection pattern (white door on black bowl). Well, I THINK Roger, that you have hit on the exact point why this works. The black and white areas actually cause a kind of CHORUS effect. And that's why it sounds so rich to my ears.
I'm done. Go paint your doors and play your guitars.
Dave |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | THE sensation of sound is a thing sui generis, not comparable with any of our other sensations. No one can express the relation between a sound and a colour or a smell. Directly or indirectly, all questions connected with this subject must come for decision to the ear, as the organ of hearing; except for the fact that Carlos Santana's guitar playing stinks and purple socks hum. But we are not therefore to infer that all acoustical investigations are conducted with the unassisted ear. When once we have spray painted the cover gloss white, we discovered the physical phenomena which constitute the foundation of sound, our explorations are in great measure transferred to another field lying within the dominion of the principles of Mechanics. Important laws are in this way arrived at, to which the sensations of the ear cannot but conform.
It is a direct consequence of the white painted cover, that within wide limits, the velocity of sound is independent, or at least very nearly independent, of its intensity, and also of its pitch. Were this otherwise, a quick piece of music would be heard at a little distance hopelessly confused and discordant. But when the disturbances are very violent and abrupt, so that the alterations of density concerned are comparable with the whole density of the air,then the white painted trap door makes perfect sense, the simplicity of this law may not be departed from.
In an open space the intensity of sound falls off with great rapidity as the distance from the source increases. The same amount of motion has to do duty over surfaces ever increasing as the squares of the distance. Anything that confines the sound will tend to diminish the falling off of intensity. Thus over the flat surface of still water, a sound carries further than over broken ground; the corner between a smooth pavement and a vertical wall is still better; but the most effective of all is a string tube-like enclosure, which prevents spreading altogether. The use of string tubes to facilitate communication between the different parts of a guitar is well known. If it were not for certain effects (frictional and other) due to the sides of the string tube, sound might be thus conveyed with little loss to very great distances......
.....so Dave's right! :eek: |
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Location: SE Michigan | I heard you should use blue paint if you play the blues. I was also wondering if you spin a Chinese man around and around does he become dis-oriented?
I always wondered why all Ovations dont come with the rear access hatch. It would make repairs and mods so much easier, also it seems like it would be cheaper for the company to just have one bowl design. |
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Location: SoCal | Brian, the oriental comments was very insensitive. I should have said it, not you!
Your thought on one bowl design fits all is interesting, but I suspect that the added cost of the door hardware would preclude them from doing it.
When you're disgruntled, and life gets better, does that mean you're now "gruntled"? |
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Location: NJ | This all reminds me of something years ago (when CD's were the fledgling music media). There was some article circulating (that supposedly started in some audiophile magazine) that if you coloured the very outer rim of your CD's with a specific color marker, it helped to increase the laser's reflection on the inside of the disk, thereby improving the sound quality . . .
What got ME interested in it was that it was a specific Pantone design marker used by GraphicDesigners (I forget the specific PMS number, but it was a bluish-teal colour).
Tried it.
Even went as far as a friend and I A/B-ing two of the SAME model HarmonKardon CD players playing two copies of the same CD (one "coloured", one not).
(Marijuana IS a wonderful thing! . . . innit??)
Didn't hear a f@ckin' BIT of difference (pun intended). |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Not to be confused with an early Anti-Pirating technique of slipping some code in the outer most ring.
Black sharpy around the edge was the anti-anti-pirating fix.
Arrrrhhhhhhh! |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Originally posted by cliff:
. . . .HarmonKardon CD players . . . . Back in the Day..."KarmicHardOn"
.....Yep, a liitle Humboldt County Green goes a loooong way |
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| "No one can express the relation between a sound and a colour or a smell"
Yes I can - Carlos Santana's guitar playing stinks and purple socks hum. |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | I agree....go back and re-read my theory again for the revision.... |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Look up-
Synesthesia |
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Location: Midland, MI | I can quite definitely recall being able to taste colors. Once. |
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Contourback question.