|
|
Joined:
December 2005
Posts: 6
Location: Yuma, AZ | What do you do about the Ovation crack? It seems that many older Ovations have a crack (more than finish) from the bridge to the rim, near the middle. I have a Balladeer and a Custom Balladeer, both from the '80's, that have the typical cracks. I use these guitars for gigs and they seem stable, but I worry about the crack spreading.
The traditional repair is to glue a cleat inside the top, behind the crack. Then a triangular strip is sliced out of the top and replaced with a matching strip of wood. With the high-tech glues like Gorilla glue on the market today, I am thinking about running a strip of glue on the inside of the top, down the length of the crack. I just want stability. I don't need cosmetic perfection.
Any advice or observtions on the "Ovation" crack would bve greatly appreciated. I will hold off my glue repair until I hear opinions.
Thanks,
Larry Dean
desertdean21@yahoo.com |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | You can use a thin veneer strip on the under side. Careful with the Gorilla glue. it can get very messy. I'd be inclined to use the "white" glue or modern hyde. If you don't have clamps that can do the job you can cut a couple of wedges from scrap stock to clamp the veneer to the top by wedging agaisnt the back.
Might want to place the gain of the veneer adjacent to the top gain |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | r u sure it's a crack in the wood? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2005
Posts: 6
Location: Yuma, AZ | Yes, The crack goes through the wood. Thanks for the replies. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Larry... Gorilla glue will expand up through the crack and out the top.... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13987
Location: Upper Left USA | "Gorilla Glue" is a near cousin to the spray foam insulation filler stuff. If you don't apply force on the parts being fit, it will rearrange their position for you! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Oh. I saw the header and thought someone was dissing Moody again. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 4413
| Let's just be thankful that cliff has bags to pack. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 208
Location: Illinois | I have concerns with a strip of wood laid from hole to button end. The grain runs the same way. Yeah, that's the way they do the multi-piece back on the 'wooden boxes', but there is no string tension back there and you've already got structural issues. Unless you can get a strip with the grain running cross ways to the sound board grain, I'd be afraid the crack will just continue down through the new strip.
Also, check the condition of the braces. They could be seperated or worse, cracked as well. Re-glue or replace as needed.
Diamond shaped patches are in order. No need to inlay them, just good powdered, mix-it-with-water hide glue works best. Don't use that liquid hide glue they sell in squeeze bottles. It isn't very strong. Lay the diamond shaped patches so the grain is perpendicular to the crack. It isn'tnecessary to feather the edges of the patches, but it looks more professional that way.
Yes, you'll need to clamp. A tongue depresser cut slightly longer than the bowl depth, then wedged between the bowl and patch works good. Probably should place a clamp across the top for these to push against. You don't wanna push the top up with the tongue depressors.
I got these hobby sticks at the Michael's. They look like short paint stirrers. Make your patches, then test fit your tongue depressor clamps then when you have them all made mix up and heat the glue and re-install. You gotta work quick before the glue cools and sets.
Visit Frets.com. Frank Ford will fill you in on the ins and outs of hide glue. He knows his stuff. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Wait a minute...I don't see why this wouldn't be handled any different than a finish crack. Use water sol glue or CYA from the underside if the crack is all of the way through, then topside. If not through the wood - forget about the underside. Use the water sol glue or CYA to build it up, sand, buff. This is catalyzed polyester and you can sand without damaging the finish. Could even mix acrylic paint with the glue to try and hide the crack. StewMac says 2,000 grit but I use 3,000-12,000 on the cracks. Search archive, there is a lot there.
Pressure of the top and the glue should make it as stable as a non-crack top.
However, why did it crack into the wood? Is there a loose or missing brace, bulge in the top? Probably not a bad idea to check the underside. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12755
Location: Boise, Idaho | Tony, what do you mean by CYA? It means something different to me, but doesn't fit in that context. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | SORRY, not Catholic Youth Association...CyA (Cyanoacrylate) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Canadian Yachting Association.
(oh, wait... maybe he means Cyanoacrylate ester adhesive... otherwise known as super glue...) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Well, when your brain housing group is a little slow...guess you could use a glue stick to avoid glueing your fingers to your forehead :p :D :p |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12755
Location: Boise, Idaho | Originally posted by Tony Calman:
Use water sol glue or CYA from the underside if the crack is all of the way through, then topside. I'm still trying to figure out how to cover your ass from the underside if the crack is all the way through. I'll check it out in the mirror. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Mark.
Welcome to the other side of the line.
.....sheez, I'll be needin a brain scrub |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2004
Posts: 2850
Location: Midland, MI | I think Mark is chanelling cliff. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 2791
Location: Atlanta, GA. | I'm still trying to figure out how to cover your ass from the underside if the crack is all the way through. I'll check it out in the mirror. Mark,
PLEASE don't report back with your findings!!! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2005
Posts: 6
Location: Yuma, AZ | Thanks for the advice. I have discovered that the main crack (in the 12 string Custom Balladeer) is through the wood directly beside a brace (right up against it). A piece of wood inside won't do any good, so I am going to take Tony's advice to use the CYA. I will try to build it up with several applications.
Thanks to "Skinny Baby Lee" for suggesting a thorough examination of the braces. The other guitar (Balladeer) proved to have a loose brace and the surface crack does not go through the top wood. I wlll re-glue the brace, using white glue, and then attack the surface crack with CYA.
I still haven't found a bridge saddle for the Balladeer.
Thanks for your help. I hope these wonderful sounding guitars are good for many more years of music making.
Larry Dean - desertdean21@yahoo.com |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 208
Location: Illinois | If you gotta get your glue from a bottle, use Carpenter's glue. It's the yellow stuff. It's stronger for this application.
I still think, though you want to push the top back into position and reinforce. Filling the crack won't fix the underlying problem and it will contiue to open up. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | It would be nearly impossible to effectively "push the top back" together.
open cracks are a result of stress and shrinkage (that's gonna be a field day for my fellow miscreants).You are essentailly working with less material than originally constructed and putting the pieces back together will place even more stress on the area. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Glue alone wont do the job. One of the better ways to repair a top crack like this is to make a splint. You need to open up the crack to a "V" shape. There are lutherie tools available specifically for this task. You then take a piece of spruce, make a V-shaped splint and glue it into the crack. This will stand proud of the top so will need to be taken down flush. The better the match in terms of colour and grain of the splint the better the repair will look. It sounds pretty easy but it takes a lot of skill and experience to produce a stable repair that also looks cosmetically acceptable. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | I recommend two books:
Guitar Player:Repair Guide by Erlwine
D.I.Y Guitar Repair by Filet
You might find them useful. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 208
Location: Illinois | Frank Ford at Frets.com has helped me VOLUMES over the years. CHeck him out for fixing the wood parts... sorry part on your Ovation.
Ya know, You gotta love this place. No matter how many ways we find to bust up a guitar there are just as many ways to put it back together again.
As my buddy Yakov says,"What a country!" |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | duct tape. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 1330
Location: ms | I,m sorry to say this is the only weakness i,ve found on ovations,but its a major one! Its keep me from buying many guitars.Its a sad feeling to open a case an see those cracks creeping down from the saddle.My own 1992 collectors has this ,with the top and action rising higher.But as someone here posted,the back and sides don't give but the top does! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 1330
Location: ms | Is this the same as a plumbers crack? :) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | No. Plumbers cracks are, sadly, non-repairable.
No, Jeff, not even with duct tape. The sweat, you know. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 1330
Location: ms | I guess i`m stuck with mine,drives the women wild.! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | soon, there's not going to be any one on the side of the line we all started from...
It was the hair-in-the-duct-tape image that did me in. Thanks A LOT :( |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12755
Location: Boise, Idaho | When were you and Cliff ever on the other side of the line? I guess I didn't go that far back in the archives. I let this thread come back after I crossed the line, but some people can't leave it there. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Mark,
You can never go home again...once you cross the event horizon, you can't escape the gravity of the darkside... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 5329
Location: Cicero, NY | ...ain't that the truth... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 4413
| You sup with these people you need a loooooong spoon. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | not long enough....
 |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 5329
Location: Cicero, NY | Originally posted by schroeder:
You sup with these people you need a loooooong spoon. What's sup? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 5329
Location: Cicero, NY | And tell Uri Geller to knock it off already! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | never let him play your guitar.
(he made a Matrix look like a SalvadorDali) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2003
Posts: 555
Location: Wooster, Ohio | Does top splitting happen more often on Ovation guitars. I have never seen this on mine, but did see one person I know have both a Taylor and a Martin split. Is it the enviroment the guitar finds itself in or the guitar?
Steve |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | on quality guitars with well seasoned wood, cracks, if not caused by trauma, are almost always caused by radical climatic conditions. If properly stored/kept tops should not split. If not, tops will crack no matter who the maker.... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 1330
Location: ms | It seems to be fairly common on Taylors. I've seen them often on Elderly Instruments web site with seam cracks. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2005
Posts: 19
Location: WILMINGTON, DE | My Balladeer has a crack or two, ok, three or four... caused by being frozen and then not allowed to acclimate. So I was told by the original owner. I have had the cracked guitar for 30 yrs and never even thought of repairing it. Now you've opened a can of worms. I guess I need to check inside to make sure the braces aren't cracked. Actually I was thinking about that crack today. Wondering if I should have it looked at. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2006
Posts: 12
Location: Hayes, Virginia | If the crack is too close to the brace to put a wood cleat on to stabilize the crack. You may be able to use a cloth reinforcement patch. After splinting / gluing the crack, take a strip of thin tight woven strip of linen or cotton impregnated with glue (hot hide ideally) and place it so it spans the cracked area. This will help keep the crack from opening up again but isn’t anywhere as strong as wood cleats. It is used to fix highly curved sides of instruments that you cant use cleats on. I don’t know what it would do to the tone of the instrument if you used it on the top. Frets.com has a good description of the technique.
If you just got the cracked instrument, make sure that you let the guitar acclimate to your local climate. If the crack was caused by drying out from too dry air or heat it is best to let the wood re-hydrate before attempting any repair. Of course if the instrument is monetarily/sentimentally valuable repairs are best left to a professional. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2004
Posts: 812
Location: Hicksville, NY | Originally posted by 45flint:
Does top splitting happen more often on Ovation guitars. Is it the enviroment the guitar finds itself in or the guitar? Although I have not seen an Ovation top split (yet), I have seen my share of cracks. I had been informed that Ovation tops are known to crack and split, especially between the bridge plate and the tail block. Changes in the humidity, temperature and the environment are common causes of it. While the composite roundbacks are virtually bulletproof to environmental factors, the solid wood top unfortunately is not. As a result, I am not taking any chances, and use a fairly inexpensive humidifier. They cost around $10 to $15.00. I was using Dampits for a while, but recently switched to the one that suspends between the 3rd and 4th strings made by Planet Waves. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6197
Location: Phoenix AZ | yes I do think you see a lot more lacquer cracked tops on Ovations than other guitars. Particularly the 70's era models. This is my own theory why:
1. Ovation guitars are thought of as "bulletproof" because of the plastic back. And because of this, owners don't treat them with the care that you should for a quality wood instrument. The Martin owners manual has 5 fucking pages of warnings about humidity! Ovation owners treat their guitars like a piece of sporting goods equipment.
2. The bowl and the top expand and contract at drastically different rates and this puts stress on the whole thing. And eventually "pop" there goes a lacquer crack.
3. Ovation (in the 70's and 80's) used a very think poly lacquer finish. Very beautiful, very durable to pick parks, etc. But does not give at all when the wood underneith expands or contracts.
Ovation has done a lot over the past years to eliminate this problem and as far as I know on most 90's and newer instruments lacquer cracking is a non issue.
Dave |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13987
Location: Upper Left USA | I agree it was an "era" issue.
One more thing to add is that they are not "Lacquer cracks" since it is a Poly finish and not lacquer.
Lacquer can be added to and repaired or blended fairly easily. It is also a lot softer than Poly.
Once the damage is in a Poly finish it is there to stay. Poly over Poly still leaves a visible separation point. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2005
Posts: 4827
Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Hmmmmm, guilty as charged on all counts Standingovation! Now I gotta go look-see if there's any damage to my favourite guitar.
Other than all (3?) the little dings on the front, 107 layers of three different kinds of glue on the side from set lists, and that little chip on the headstock that always makes me mad when I remember how it got there.......... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 1071
Location: Carle Place, NY | My 1718 just developed a complete split of the wood where the two halves of the top meet from below the bridge to the botton of the guitar.
I'm going to send it to the factory for repair. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | I agree with Dave's RCA (Root Cause Analysis)
and will add this:
Arguments made about relative expansion rates apply, not only, to Ovation backs but, to all guitars.
Wooden guitars are built with differing woods, with differing qualities. Those different woods expand and contract at different rates. The components of wooden guitars are constructed in precarious opposition to allow for both movement and stability. If you expose those differing woods and wood structures to significant environmental differences they will crack. Period...*SEE WITKO #1 |
|
| |
The Ovation Crack?