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March 2006
Posts: 186
Location: The State of Hockey | I'm temporarialy working in KC, Missouri and I have been looking at this 1990 ivory 1868 Elite that is for sale. It sounds great and it has the op-24. However today as I looked at it there appears to be a belly warp. Behind the bridge the belly is up about 1/8" to 3/16" higher than in front of the bridge. Is this guitar something that I should avoid? Did I mention that it sound great?
Thanks |
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November 2003
Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | If the bracing is in tact and solid....go for it. This condition can mean the bridge is loaded and ready to pump. |
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Posts: 3619
Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | Another way you could look at it is ... you could always call it an arch top (:
All Kidding aside ... Jeff, can you explain this further for my lack of understanding "This condition can mean the bridge is loaded and ready to pump." |
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Posts: 11039
Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | there are two primary forces at play when building a guitar...
1. the tension of the strings pulling both headstock and body toward collapse
and
2. the structure of the guitar that resists that collapse
The trick to building a guitar that sounds good is to precariously balance those two forces so the guitar will easily vibrate to produce sound. Too rigid and the guitar sounds dead and lifeless, not rigid enough and it 'splodes like a watch spring.
Nearly all the desirable sound produced by an acoustic guitar comes from the front edge (side closest to soundhole) of the bridge pivioting on it's long edge against the soundboard
A guitar that displays the characteristic Couchflyer describes, has achieved just that precarious equillibrium, where there is a tremendous amount of force loaded on leading edge of the bridge, making it very sensitive to string vibration, but still, resisting collapse (again assuming the soundboard bracing is in tact) |
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Posts: 2850
Location: Midland, MI | My understanding was that a very slight (not 1/2", eh?) belly behind the bridge was generally indicative of a top that would pump. Something about the bracing being light enough to let it vibrate like mad, but just strong enough to keep everything together. I don't know how much is too much, though. I do know on my 1868 (-4, because natural whips the llama's ass) there's a very (very) slight belly bulge behind the bridge. I would guess somewhere less than 3/16", as you can see it only if you rotate the top through the right light, and you can barely feel it if you're paying attention. But, it's there. Freaked me out at first, but hasn't been a problem. More importantly, there's no dip in front of the bridge. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | My Folklore has that. That's why I got it from a guy who thought it was a problem caused by steel strings and tried to put nylons on it. He got some bad advice from some guitar repair guy. It's one of my best sounding Os. |
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March 2006
Posts: 186
Location: The State of Hockey | How would one know if the soundboard bracing is intact? The 1868 is at a Guitar Center, I initially thought that it might have been bowing from lack of playing. Either from the previous owner or at the store. They want $899 for it. If the bow isn't a problem, it might be worth spending $400 - $500 for it. I am wondering are there many Os out there that have a belly bow? |
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Posts: 3619
Location: GATLINBURG TENNESSEE :) | I guess I'll have to get mine all out and look closely at them in the light. I wouldn't be suprised if the occasional finish crack was partly due to this. (since a lot of times they show up near the bridge) My 1537 shows a little of this movement, and I can tell by looking at it from the top where the bracing is located. It sounds great though. |
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Posts: 1817
Location: Minden, Nebraska | There are plenty of guitars with the 'belly bow'. But there are very few #1868s selling for $899. That is a delusional price, imho. They are readily available for half that on eBay, and often less. I reckon ones with a more recent preamp than the OP24 to be worth slightly more. |
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Posts: 2850
Location: Midland, MI | I agree with Paul. I gave $650 w/OHSC for my 1868 in absolutely mint condition two years ago. Maybe a bit on the high side, but if it had the case candy you would've thought it was NOS. |
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Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | I've got a 1777LX with a belly bulge - honestly never even noticed it until I sold it to a member and he pointed it out (it's back on my wall again). The guitar plays hot and sweet, intonation is perfect, great tone... the only thing that worries me is that the strings are almost making contact with the front edge of the bridge (in front of the saddle). The action is perfect right now, but I won't be able to lower it any more if the bulge continues to grow. I have reason to believe this was originally an FRG (looks like the sticker was sanded off).
Would a neck reset be able to compensate for this? |
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July 2004
Posts: 474
Location: Anchorage, Alaska | I've see quite a few 12 strings with the belly behind the bridge (including mine). I was told it was caused by string tension. On a 12 string that would make sense. I bought it this way from a member but it dosen't bother me too much. I only play it once a month or so and it sounds beautiful. |
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June 2004
Posts: 375
Location: Rocky River, Ohio | My 1758-4 looks pregnant...
i can't believe the clearcoat hasn't cracked..
But Man is it loud... |
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November 2005
Posts: 4832
Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | It's a sexy little belly!
Yeah, mine's got it too. Been there for decades now.
Just makes sense really , when you imagine all the force of those strings pulling on the wood and glue. It's amazing the whole thing manages stay in one piece.
I gotta stop, I'm scaring myself now. Think I'll go strum a little to calm down.... |
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February 2006
Posts: 12
Location: Hayes, Virginia | How would one know if the soundboard bracing is intact? Inspecting the bracing on a 1868 is easy since you can just pop the back panel of and wiggle the braces to see if they move. They may not like you doing this at the store but for $899 they should let you inspect it fully.
The 1868 is at a Guitar Center, I initially thought that it might have been bowing from lack of playing. Either from the previous owner or at the store. How would lack of playing make the top bulge? I can’t imagine there would be extra strain from a guitar just sitting tuned to pitch compared to being played. |
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February 2005
Posts: 11840
Location: closely held secret | Originally posted by Bluecrabboy:
They may not like you doing this at the store but for $899 they should let you inspect it fully. You don't have to tell them you're gonna wiggle the braces...
How would lack of playing make the top bulge? I can’t imagine there would be extra strain from a guitar just sitting tuned to pitch compared to being played. Ok, this is an easy one. If all you did was sit around all day and never play, you'd start to bulge in the middle, too. I know.
Lord, how I know.... |
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March 2006
Posts: 186
Location: The State of Hockey | Years ago when I was a kid taking lessons, I was told that if you play a guitar it with the strings tight it won’t bow the belly. If you store it or don't play the guitar with the strings tight it will cause a bow. This happened to an old nylon string Harmony I had. The instructor was talking about 6 strings. Anyways I cheap, I will offer about $300 and point out the bow and see what happeneds. |
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July 2005
Posts: 83
Location: Norman, OK | My 1868-5 has a slight belly bulge as well, the bracing inside is intact and it's never seemed to get any worse and the sound is outstanding for a shallow bowl, but I was able to use it to my advantage when negotiating the price at the pawn shop I found it at. I would agree that $899 is "overly optimistic". I negotiated mine for just under $400.
Good Luck,
Mike O |
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March 2006
Posts: 186
Location: The State of Hockey | Update.
I stopped in and tt the mgnr. I offered them $425 and I was advised that they can't go that low, they have $600 into the guitar :eek:
Oh well I'll keep looking. This shallow bowl 1868 sure plays well and sounds great plugged in. |
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Update - Belly warped 1868 Elite