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May 2002
Posts: 1026
Location: Back in the Valley of the Sun Mesa Az. | Hi,
I did a search with not much for results. Was wondering if anyone has advice on what to do with a small, what appears to be a finish crack (about 3/4 inch) just below the bridge. Here's the deal...the crack is very minor, and does not bother me much at all...my concern is that if left as it is...will it grow and grow and grow over time? The soundboard really vibrates when being played, and I'm afraid with changes in weather/humidity over the seasons here in Minnesota that this crack will grow.
I've repaired my Pacemaker finish cracks by applying superglue into the crack....the cracks did not grow, but the superglue made an unsightly ridge where the cracks are.
Any ideas? am I better off just leaving it alone?
Thanks for the input!
Norse(not very talented at repairs)man1 |
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May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | I like to stabilize them. Previous threads discuss how:
http://www.ovationfanclub.com/cgi-bin/ubb/non-cgi/ultimatebb.php?ub...
http://www.ovationfanclub.com/cgi-bin/ubb/non-cgi/ultimatebb.php?ub...
If you have a relationship with your local luthier, he'll probably give you the glue for free in a little pipette. It's such a small quantitiy. You need really thin glue for this operation, not superglue, it's too thick. And apply sparingly. Stew Mac #10 glue. The thinest. |
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Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho | I have 3 small finish cracks like that in the Custom Balladeer. They've been there for at least a couple years, probably many more and they haven't changed at all. |
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Posts: 1026
Location: Back in the Valley of the Sun Mesa Az. | stew mac glue..thanks I'll check into it. |
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February 2002
Posts: 1817
Location: Minden, Nebraska | Norse, I don't take on this kind of project myself -- being rather antagonistic toward ridges of glue -- but I have read other threads on the subject including posts from those who do work with filling these cracks. If memory serves, the superglue is usually diluted some in order to flow into the crack AND the residue is quickly cleaned up.
But I suggest a search on the subject. |
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Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 1026
Location: Back in the Valley of the Sun Mesa Az. | I was checking into the Steward MacDonald glue, and apparently they have just that...a diluted superglue. I can order a bottle for about four bucks. I'm not sure how to dilute superglue, so I think I may just purchase a bottle of this stewmac glue. Unless someone knows what to use to dilute superglue?
Thanks all for the replies... I think I have a plan of action now! |
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Posts: 972
Location: PDX | I'd be interested in your appraisal of how it worked out for you when you've completed the job, if you wouldn't mind sharing?
_____
gh1 |
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Posts: 1026
Location: Back in the Valley of the Sun Mesa Az. | yea youbetcha I will! |
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May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | It worked great on my ovation celebrity. Sold it to someone name John Lennon, (I kid you not!) and he loves it. Did the same for my country artist and it looks beautiful. Based on my experience with my celebrity, if you let them grow they become harder to repair as gunk gets into the crack. If you can live with the crack then who cares, it's not fatal and adds character.
My appraisal is ... do it! |
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Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Oh, yea, clean the area first with naphtha and let dry. |
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Posts: 972
Location: PDX | Originally posted by an4340:
Oh, yea, clean the area first with naphtha and let dry. Really? Wouldn't the Naptha disolve the finish?
I don't know. i use Naptha on the raw wood of my fretboard, but i am always very careful to keep it off the finish.
Just curious -- it would be nice to know that i am being paranoid and can relax a bit when cleaning the fretboards.
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gh1 |
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December 2003
Posts: 13996
Location: Upper Left USA | The Poly-your-ethane finish on the O's is imervious to anything except physical attacks.
Naptha is good to use on lacquer (no reaction) while Alcohol or mineral spirits may have issues.
Lighter fluid is almost all naptha I believe.
Ventilation and location (don't leave spots on your furniture) are important! |
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Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | You're being paranoid. I've used naphtha on polyutherane, danish oil, nitro and linseed oil based finsihes. Not a problem. Think about the sweat, or beer that falls on it in a bar or food handed to you at barbeques ... mmmh ... barbeque!
Now, don't dunk it in a bath of the stuff, but a nice wipe of it will NOT hurt your guitar. |
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Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | this doesn't apply to the solid bodies.
Ovation uses a catalyzed polyester. Thick and hard. Note that in the last ? 10yrs, the factory is using a thinner finish but you can still do this procedure. Yes, you can seal a finish crack and in some cases eliminate the crack completely.
You can use CyA or water soluble glue to fill and build up the surface. CyA spillage can be wiped off of the surface with CyA thinner - doesn't damage the finish or dull the surface.
Old cracks will have dirt and other in the crack -I have taken a needle or an old dental pick to scribe out the crack.
Can use acrylic paint to attempt to match the top finish - especially if a darker finish. Nice part of this is you can mix the paint on the top next to the crack until you have a good match; then wipe excess off. Even if you can't eliminate the crack, could simulate the grain.
Process is to clean the crack, fill, build up, sand, fill, sand, and buff.
I use the sanding pads from StewMac (1,500-12,000grit - although I start with 3,000), CyA (StewMac has 4 types), and Swirl Remover #4.
Swirl Remover #4 also removes any pick scratches, etc. Bought the foam buffer that attaches to a standard drill.
Again, older cracks are harder to completely eliminate but you can make them hard to see.
I was very reluctant to attempt my first repair. Once Kim talked me through it, no problem. I have had a 1669 CL with the top covered with CyA - wiped off like water using the CyA thinner. I have completely removed finish cracks.
Can't do this repair with the lacquer guitars.
As far as cracks into or through the wood - check the braces, etc., seal the crack, and do the same procedure. |
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March 2005
Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho | Maybe some practice on the Custom Balladeer and then tackle the "new" 87 Collector's when it comes. Or if Norsey gets really good at it, maybe I'll do a loan program. |
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Posts: 580
Location: NW NJ | VERY informative Tony - thanks for the excellent detail! |
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May 2002
Posts: 1026
Location: Back in the Valley of the Sun Mesa Az. | So Tony, I can apply this thinner right to the surface and wipe it off without any worries?! Where can a guy purchase this CYa thinner?
...and thanks for the info. I could really have some fun trying to restore a couple of my guitars with this type of product! |
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September 2004
Posts: 777
Location: East Wenatchee, WA | Mark,
When you get real good, maybe I will have you do the 1537. It only has one crack, but it is quite long. That is really the only significant problem with it, but I bet the glue would also work in filling the little "dent" in the finish and the one pinhed sized chip near the binding. I might have to give it a try. Stew-Mac here I come. |
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Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Tony's procedure looks good, makes me look like a crack repair caveman. I like the dental pick ... you can also use one of your wife's thin needles. And remember old cracks will never go away completely, but they can be stablized! |
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Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | For the CyA - either a store like Michaels or StewMac...get the CyA thinner at the same source as your CyA - just seems to work better. Don't use the little bottles you can get at the grocery store.
Another trick for the chips!! Sometimes hard to find but a bottle of matte nail polish (matte = non-gloss) can be used to fill the chip even with the surrounding finish. Buffed, it matches the shine of the Ovation polyester. If the chip went into the actual finish (i.e., sunburst), mix the acrylic paint to match, then several coats of the nail polish to build it up to the surrounding surface.
On an Adamas top, sometimes you have black dots - this is finish damage showing the black primer. You can get the paint that would be used to repair kitchen/bathroom sinks (HomeDepot, etc.) and make the minor repairs. Bonds well. Might have to mix a couple of the colors to get the right shade but not a problem. If there is a chip in the "rope" binding, not sure about the best way to build up the damage but you can use the same paint to match the binding's finish. |
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Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | A bad crack will still show unless you have the top stripped and refinished by the factory - expensive. You can do a pretty good job by making it look like wood grain.
If you have a fairly clean crack and don't have time to work on it - place a piece of 3m "Magic" tape over the crack...comes right off and will keep oils and dirt from getting into the crack until you have time to work on it. |
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Joined:
September 2004
Posts: 777
Location: East Wenatchee, WA | Thanks for all the info. The crack on my 1537 didn't even appear until about a year and a half ago, and it spends it's time in the case when not being played, so it should be pretty clean.
I guess a trip to Michaels (which is closer than anything) is in order. I have dental picks, but hopefully won't need to use them. Mostly want to be sure I get the glue in the crack, then remove the excess with the thinner. I will toy with the other issues too, but they are very minor. |
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March 2005
Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho | I talked to the guy in the office about letting me experiment with the 1537 he just got. He figured that, since he only had a little over $500 into it, he would some day just send it back to the factory for a resurface of the top and have a "new" 1537 for less than $1000. That sounds like something you should consider, Jeff. But if you do a really good job on yours, come on over and do mine. |
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May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | So basically it's $5 for a repair that may add character or be invisible and be perfectly servicable, versus, the cost of resurfacing the top, or a new top. Since I've repaired mine successfully ... |
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March 2005
Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho | As soon as Jeff does the perfect repair on his and flies it down here, I'm sure he'll convince us to try the same approach.
My friend's has 3 rather large cracks, one of which may go into the wood. Hence the thought that the factory may be best. |
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Posts: 1498
Location: San Bernardino, California | Cya tends to soften when it gets hot, so don't get too aggressive with the buffing. |
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August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Bruce, I have been fairly aggressive with the buffing but that is with foam and swirl remover (basically polishing).
Mechanical sanding could cause heat. I like the sanding pads, doing it by hand. And, with the highest grit that will have an effect. The pads that I recommended allow wet sanding. StewMac says that you can use 2,000 grit. I use 3,000 or finer. Takes a little more work but you don't create the fine scratches that can be difficult to remove later.
Again, work the glue down, build it up, let dry, then sand, build up, dry, sand, then buff. Bottom line is to have a smooth surface when done.
Only reason I like CyA over the water based is that I am sloppy. When the CyA is dry, I can wipe off the overlay on the top without dissolving the crack fill. If I use a damp rag to clean up the water based glue, it affects the fill also. Again, you need CyA thinner that works with your CyA. Had some that worked as bad as turpentine. Try it out before using.
Course, there are finish cracks that are visible but very tight, smooth to the touch...how do you work glue down into that? Scribe it and it could look worse. I have a CA that is like that...big deal, plays well. Cracks not going anywhere. Buffed them, left them. Even Sophia Loren has a couple of wrinkles, yet a beautiful lady.
So, work on the cracks that are rough or if you think it may continue. Had one where I put some pressure on the inside of the top to open up the crack to get a small amount into the crack. Had used tape on the top at the edge of the crack in case the pressure started the crack to grow.
Maybe I should have mentioned earlier...I always check to see if there was any damage to the top prior to effecting repair. Was this caused by temperature or a loose brace?
A couple of years ago, I had the factory refinish the top of a 1658 Custom Legend 12-string that had been damaged in shipping. At that time it was $350. Of course, the rosette on a CL costs more than one on a Balladeer. Do not suggest attempting to refinish the top yourself. Don't even consider a local tech. From what I have seen, anyone that tried to do it before will not do it again.
Again, matte nail polish allows you to build up the chips that many of the guitars have on the top of the headstock. |
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small finish crack repair