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Location: Central Florida | I recently acquired (more for sentimental reasons than anything else) a 1976 GC 1627. I bought it knowing fully well that I've never cared for the acoustic tone produced by the artist bowl and VT-8 bracing combination---and this guitar is no exception. It has that same flat, lifeless tone of every pre-1980 artist bowl Ovation steel string I've ever played. But when plugged in, it's a completely different animal. Plugged in this guitar rocks!
Since I knew what to expect from it acoustically, I bought it mainly for plugging in, so in that regard I'm not dissatisfied with the purchase (especially for the price I paid). However, I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts or ideas as to how I might improve the guitar's acoustic tone. Would replacing the plastic nut with bone or tusk give it more ring and/or sustain? Would a set of Elixer nanowebs brighten up the sound any?
I doubt there's much I can do to enhance the bass response, but if I could just brighten up the overall tone it would go a long way towards improving its acoustic voice, as this is an extremely mid-range intensive guitar. In fact, that's what's wrong with it in a nutshell... It's ALL mid-range.
Thanks for your help... |
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Location: SoCal | Put your foot thru the top and send it back to Ovation for a new A braced top. You'll love the results. Finance it by selling the Taylor. And have an OP Pro put in. The GC will be a better guitar than the Taylor.
Haven't we had this conversation before?
Serge Lara loves his 70's GC Artist. Serge, what kind of strings to you use? Any suggestions? |
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Location: Toronto | Hey Jeff, why not throw on a set of adamas 1818's? I find them much brighter than the more expensive Elixer's and EPs - they just don't last as long - but at such a cheap price, you can put on new set every week!!! |
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Location: Toronto | Okay - Moody has a much better idea! |
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Location: NJ | WhatEVER strings you use, make sure you use StringTubes when you install them . . .
. . . Witko tells me they increase the tone exponentially. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Jeff, the issue with the guitar is more significant than subtle changes in the nut or string type would correct. In my opinion the problem is not the artist bowl, but more the bracing.
If you got the guitar REALLY cheap, I might be tempted to try some radical things. Here me out on these:
1. Reach inside with a razor knife and shave down or remove a few braces.
2. Cover the sound hole with some kind of plug and experiment with tapping some multi holes in the side of the bowl on the upper bass bout.
I agree this all sounds pretty strange, but who knows maybe it would really help. Or totally destroy your guitar. I especially like idea #2. Someone at the recent factory tour did this to their Elite and it sounded darn nice.
Dave |
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Location: So. Cal. | Whatever you do to improve or otherwise the tone of the guitar acoustically, it will affect the tone when you plug in as well. Since you are "very" happy with the plugged in sound, think again before you tinker with the guitar in any way. |
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| Jeff, Tune down to D, and use medium guage bright bronze strings... I had an early campbell artist, they were advertised to have more 'cut' for lead players, but lacked in overall volume...a bone nut would help a little.. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by playadamas:
Since you are "very" happy with the plugged in sound, think again before you tinker with the guitar in any way. DAMN, THAT MAKES SENSE!
Mike is like my old girlfriend. She doesn't come around too often, but when she does she sure delivers the goods.
Dave |
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Location: closely held secret | I'm with Witco. If you got it cheap enough, we could all benefit from your sacrifice and experimentation!
You might make a world-changing contribution to acoustic science!
Be sure to include photographic documentation. You know how picky those Nobel judges can be...
...and if the top self-destructs, there's always Moody's idea to fall back on. |
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Location: SoCal | After playing a GC RI, I still like my idea the best. |
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Location: Central Florida | Paul, yes, we have this conversation before. And yes, replacing the top is still an option I'm considering, but that's down the road a ways. I'm thinking more short-term fixes here. Although, it occurred to me that in order to replace the top, they'll have to replace the entire top/bowl assembly, which means I'd lose the artist bowl--which I'm not sure I want to sacrifce. If there was a way I could keep the artist bowl and just change the top and/or bracing that's the way I'd go, but I imagine it'd be fairly cost prohibitive... IF they'd even agree to do it that way.
As for the Taylor, it's not on very solid ground right now anyway, but not because I don't like it. Fact is, I may have to sell it to help pay for somehting else (non-guitar related).
Dave, I've already tried everything you've suggested and so far, nothing has worked to improve the sound, that's when I initiated this thread. :D |
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Location: closely held secret | Jeff, I'm pretty sure there would be no problem replacing the top without losing the bowl. |
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Location: Central Florida | Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
After playing a GC RI, I still like my idea the best. Well Paul, you know that's the guitar that got me jazzed about the 1627s again in the first place. If I could afford it (and more importantly, justify it), that's the one I'd have. And even before you suggest it... No, I'm NOT selling one of my Martins! :p |
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Location: closely held secret | The Taylor, then. |
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Location: Central Florida | Originally posted by Waskel:
Jeff, I'm pretty sure there would be no problem replacing the top without losing the bowl. I had a conversation with Kim Keller about 6-7 years ago regarding top replacements. At that time, he said if they determine that a guitar is in need of a new top, they just replace the whole top and bowl assembly, because it's less time consuming than to remove an old top from its bowl and re-attach a new one. Now, it's entirely possible that they've changed policies and/or methods since then, so I may be going on outdated information. |
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Location: Central Florida | Originally posted by Waskel:
The Taylor, then. What I'd get for the Taylor wouldn't even make up half the cost of the GC reissue. Besides, I'm probably gonna have to sell the Taylor to help with a non-guitar related expendature. |
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Location: SoCal | Call Kim or John and find out. |
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Location: Central Florida | I will call Kim or John, but I'd rather wait until I'm closer to being in a position to green light a work order. I just wanna know if there's anything I can do in the meantime to help it sound a little better acoustically. A top replacement will help it sound much better across the board, but for the time being, if I could just "brighten up" the high end a little more it'd be an improvement. Like I said, it's very mid-range intensive and the highs sound almost muted. No "ring" whatsoever.
Thanks for the replies so far... |
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Location: SoCal | What kind of strings are you using? |
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Location: Central Florida | D'Addario EJ16s (P/B lights). |
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Location: SoCal | Try the mediums. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | bone nut, medium gauge strings and raise the action a hair. |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | If it were me, I'd take a deep breath and send it to the factory. I'd have them put the same bowl on, an "A" braced top, and an OpPro.
What are they doing with the Glen Campbell re-issues? They're not using the VT bracing for those, are they? |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | If it were me, I'd take a deep breath and send it to the factory. I'd have them put the same bowl on, an "A" braced top, and an OpPro.
What are they doing with the Glen Campbell re-issues? They're not using the VT bracing for those, are they? |
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Location: Warren,Pa. | If it were me, I'd take a deep breath and send it to the factory. I'd have them put the same bowl on, an "A" braced top, and an OpPro.
What are they doing with the Glen Campbell re-issues? They're not using the VT bracing for those, are they? |
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Location: Tampa, FL | I do believe BHB is hyperventillating |
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Location: Central Florida | Originally posted by bauerhillboy:
What are they doing with the Glen Campbell re-issues? They're not using the VT bracing for those, are they? "A" bracing on the reissues. |
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Location: SoCal | Jeff, you should price it out, just for the hell of it. |
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Location: closely held secret | You all should be ashamed. What a cheap way to boost your post counts.  |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Jeff, if I really wanted to improve the sound, I'd place it in a floor rack, then plug in and play the Les Paul Standard. |
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| I have one of the GC re-issues. and yes it does have A bracing.( artist bowl too). |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Everyone who has heard the reissue just raves about the sound. Ovation really nailed it with this one. Dave |
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Location: SoCal | I was very prepared to dislike the GC Artist RI, thinking they should have built the GC Deluxe Balladeer instead (I still think they should built that one!). Boy, was I wrong! |
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Location: Cherry Hill, NJ | The lack of tonal response on any acoustic, can be improved with good quality strings. In your case, I would try a Phosphor Bronze type. perhaps of a medium gauge. Also check the string action, too low will reduce tonal response. Your may want to look at frets.com for the string bend over the saddle on the bridge. This is important. |
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Location: Central Florida | Tommy, I'm using phosphor bronze strings now (D'Addario EJ-16s). I will check out frets.com. I've gone to them for other issues and have gotten some very useful information.
I should make clear, that what I'm experiencing (or not experiencing) tone-wise from this guitar isn't indicitive that there's a problem... It's actually typical for this model with the VT-8 bracing. It produces an extremely mid-range heavy tone, with thin bass and muted highs. It's like taking an equalizer and setting all the slides to flat. That's the best way I can think of to describe the acoustic sound.
Just to update, I've emailed Kim Keller about the possibility of a top-only replacement. I'll let you know what my options are when I hear back from him. |
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| FYI: waskel,most of us usually post for helpful reasons.I could care less about post counting. |
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Location: closely held secret | Matrix, it was a merely a comment on the fact that due to website lag several people had duplicated posts. Some have those have since been deleted. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | What's a post count? |
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Location: Tampa, FL | I believe it's what takes place just before you start digging the holes when installing a fence. |
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| Play Al D tunes on it like Mediterranean sundance or fantasia suite and the guitar kicks acoustically.. Thats why Al D. used then in the 70s.. Its a single note jazz box..
Thats kindof the cool thing about all the 1612s and 1627s , They almost all sound exactly the same.. When i had one I always used it for solos.. Strumming chords arent its strong point unless your wacking it. |
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Location: PDX | Originally posted by cliff:
WhatEVER strings you use, make sure you use StringTubes when you install them . . .
. . . Witko tells me they increase the tone exponentially. Ok -- i give up, what the heck are "StringTubes"? Or is this another inside joke between friends?
Just curious.
_____
gh1 |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | It's a joke, but don't tell anyone. Do a search for string tubes, or if you'd like, search for "catheters". I have some of those for sale that should make great string tubes. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Mark, You are a lawyer and you must certainly know that rule number 1 is DEAL IN FACTS. The only reason you think String Tube Devices (STD's) are a "joke" is because as far as I know you have not tried them. I'm pretty sure of this because I am the sole distributor. You may have tried some rip-off copy (or catheter, as you call it), but please show me the proof that my invention does not improve the sound.
That being said, I am the first to admit that STD's are not the solution to every problem. In some cases STD's are more trouble than they are worth. For this particular question of the dead sounding VT braced guitars, I am afraid that STD's will not change that.
Dave |
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Location: Central Florida | Well, I see this thread has begun to take on the customary twists and turns. :)
However, for anyone still interested in the original topic, I just heard back from Mr. Keller, and he gave me a couple of options.
I can have the complete top/bowl assembly replaced (w/ a mid-depth bowl), or for a buck and a half more they will fit a new top onto my existing artist bowl. He even said they'd include a L/H conversion on it for no additional charge... How's THAT for service! |
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Location: Upper Left USA | That's alright! |
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Location: SoCal | You like the bowl depth and it's one of the original hand laid bowls from the 70's. I'd keep that one and go with the new top and the lefty conversion. See what they can do about popping an OP Pro in it. I swear, it will become the only guitar you ever play! |
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Location: closely held secret | There ya go. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Be sure to get some STDs from Dave. I think he gets them from Amsterdam, so they must be good.
Sorry Dave if I didn't take you seriously. I guess I should have asked to see those STDs when I came to visit you, but you never told me you were an authorized distributer. |
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Location: Orlando, FL | I didn't know Dave distributed STDs. Actually, I thought Dave invented them! |
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Location: NJ | No . . . . that's ANOTHER "STD" that Witko invented . . . |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Originally posted by Mark in Boise:
you never told me you were an authorized distributer. That's SOLE DISTRIBUTOR! Dave liked them so much he bought the company! |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | not SOUL distributor?...too bad. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | Now some kid will be googling "STD" and come up with this thread. I'm chuckling at the thought. |
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Location: Orange County, California | I don't think he was implying that your playing skills were lacking in any way. I read it to mean that it is guitar that has a place IF you like the way it sounds. Otherwise, you'd basicaly be turning it into an Al DiMeola (New style mid-bowl legend, with different bracing), and that you'd have to learn to play jazz, just like "everybody else".
Glen Campell says they sound just fine the way they are, but you're not Glen. Seriously, changong the top out on yours will definately "improve" it's accoustic voice, but it's kinda like taking the side-oiler 427 out of an otherwise all original Shelby Cobra, to make room for a modern SVT 4.6L out of the new Mustang. It may be "better", but it's no longer original, and certainly not worth as much to a collector.
Peace and Blessings boys |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | It's your money Jeff. Send it in and get it fixed the way you want it. You may have been upset by the comment but bottom line, customer service and Ovation employess are dedicated to the customer and will do an outstanding job regardless of their personal feelings about changing an old original. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | and while we are speaking of blasphemy, I was considering getting a #47 RI and then sending it back to the factory to have electronics put in! :eek: |
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Location: SoCal | heathen :rolleyes: :eek: :rolleyes: |
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Location: Orange County, California | Originally posted by stephent28:
and while we are speaking of blasphemy, I was considering getting a #47 RI and then sending it back to the factory to have electronics put in! :eek: :mad: Stephen!!! |
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Location: Orange County, California | Jeff,
Getting a new top and electronics put on your 1627 sounds like a great idea!! Personally, I'd try to keep the original bowl. "Someone" at the factory will do it, and make it incredible before they are satisfied. They (he) are artists (purists) of the truest sense, which can also mean they are a bit eclectic, especialy when guitars, malted barley, hops and yeast are involved :D |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Jeff, sorry of this sounds like a silly question. But you said you like this guitar for plugged in work and you already own some incredible acoustic guitars (I'm jealous), so I'm just wondering why you care about the acoustic sound of the GC. Seems to me you've already got all the bases covered. Maybe just upgrade the electronics on the GC to something modern and you're all set. Not trying to question your logic, just curious. You could drop quite a lot of money on a new top etc. and it'll still pale in comparison to your HD and 000. Dave |
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| sorry Jeff deleted.. Bad day :( I shouldnt be here anyway. |
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Location: SoCal | ??????????????????????
c'mon...we'll understand |
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Location: Central Florida | Originally posted by luthier444:
sorry Jeff deleted.. Bad day :( I shouldnt be here anyway. Hey, It happens in the best os families... No worries. We all have bad days now and then. I was probably a bit overly touchy myself, so apologies to you as well, my friend. :) |
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Location: Central Florida | Originally posted by Tupperware:
Jeff, sorry of this sounds like a silly question. But you said you like this guitar for plugged in work and you already own some incredible acoustic guitars (I'm jealous), so I'm just wondering why you care about the acoustic sound of the GC. Seems to me you've already got all the bases covered. Maybe just upgrade the electronics on the GC to something modern and you're all set. Not trying to question your logic, just curious. You could drop quite a lot of money on a new top etc. and it'll still pale in comparison to your HD and 000. Dave Dave,
Not a silly question at all, and you're absolutely correct on all three points. I did buy it mainly for plugged in work and in that regard I'm very satisfied. And yes, I am blessed with some truly wonderful acoustic guitars. You're also correct in that no amount of money or upgrades will make the 1627 comparable acoustically to the Martins. So, how did this all get started...?
Well, it started when Ovation announced they would be reissuing the 1627 as part of their 40th anniversary commemoration. To say I got excited when I heard this is an understatement. Then I found out how much they were selling for... So much for my excitement. :(
Eventhough I knew I could never afford (or justify) the cost of a new reissue, it didn't stop me from waxing nostalgic for the old 1627. Then, when this one showed up on eBay, I put in a relatively low bid. To my complete surprise, I won.
If you go back to the beginning of this thread, you'll see that I was only looking for simple, low-tech ideas that might bring about subtle changes/improvements to this guitars current voice. Things like trying different strings, switching to a bone nut, etc.
The whole idea of a possible top replacement was born through an exchange of emails a while back between Paul Moody and me. I got to thinking that for a total investment of less than half the cost of a new reissue, I could have Ovation put a new "A" braced top on my guitar and it would then be pretty close to the specs of the RI. However, once the top replacement idea got introduced in this thread, it just kinda snowballed and took on a life of its own.
My priority for the more immediate future, before doing anything as radical as a top replacement on the GC, is to have pickups installed in my Martins, so I can start gigging with them (in addition to my Ovations).
Another long post (sorry), but I hope it answers your question. :) |
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| If I had a chance to buy an original at a good cost,I probably would get a new top. You should hear my new RI. Of course I'm comparing it to a Martin D-15, which is in the lower calibers of their guitars. |
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Location: SoCal | I think people here need to understand that in comparing a 1627 RI with one of Jeff's Martins, the sound is different. But "good" or "bad" in comparison, is a subjective matter. Personally, when I played a GC RI next to a new Gibson J45, it was obvious that they didn't sound the same. But quite honestly, I prefered the Ovation. It had a much better balance of sound over the Gibson.
But I understand that not everybody has my educated ear and perfect taste in sound...... |
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Location: SoCal | I think i am banned now??? not by us! |
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Any Suggestions To Improve The Acoustic Tone On a '70's Glen Campbell 1627?