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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Well, after years of success, I have come around to Cliff's point of view. Paypal (after the buyout by ebay) is a PIECE OF SHIT organization that will do anything to screw you out of money....via fees, payment options, etc. Not gonna get into details, but my dealing with them in the future will be few and far between.
CLIFF.....you have converted me (musta been that crisp fiver you sent me in the mail!) |
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Location: Spokane, WA | Google just started a new online payment system similar to PayPal, but is supposed to be easier to use, and have alot less fees. I just read about it today, and haven't checked it out yet, but I agree that PayPal is pretty close to legal robbery with their fees and all, ESPECIALLY on small transactions. |
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Location: NJ | I have no love for pay pal. I have went on rants about it over and over |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Everyone has their opinion. I have no problem with paypal and for me the convienence justifies the cost. As a merchent I wouldnot want to use it, but as a small time ebayer it meets my needs. I just tried to make a deal a few weeks ago with an OFC member. No paypal. I'm still waiting for the check. First one got returned to sender, second one is who knows where. Never again. Dave |
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Location: SE Michigan | I use paypal exclusivly when selling on Ebay. I don't love Paypal, but it's the best insurance out there for a guy selling a few things on Ebay. For me it's worth the price, I have never been screwed using Paypal. And I agree that their fees are high, but hey, they are running a business. I'll bet they take a fair amount of losses on bad transactions, plus it probably costs them a great deal in administrative costs to resolve disputes and investigate fraud. |
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Location: NW NJ | I'm with Tuppy and Brian. I use PayPal for my ebay stuff. Fees are fees, but I haven't been hosed by them, and getting the money fast is a bonus. I can't tell you how many times I have waited weeks to get a check or money order from a buyer. |
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Location: Central Massachusetts | Originally posted by Davek1076:
Google just started a new online payment system similar to PayPal, but is supposed to be easier to use, and have alot less fees. I just read about it today, and haven't checked it out yet, but I agree that PayPal is pretty close to legal robbery with their fees and all, ESPECIALLY on small transactions. LOL, and eBay promptly banned google payments as a valid means of payment for auctions. guess they don't like competition! [click 'Show' next to "Some Examples"] |
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Location: closely held secret | I'm sure Google Checkout belongs in there with all those other scam sites. Obviously Google doesn't know what they're doing in regards to the Internet... :rolleyes: |
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Location: Central Massachusetts | Glad we can use "Canadian Tire Money" though! WTF is that??? |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Guys, I have used paypal for years and I am a verfied premier user but over the last few months, Paypal has screwed me 3 times. Again I won't get into details but if this keeps up, some of you happy campers (like I use to be) will get the message and move on to other options.
Paypal can only bend me over so many times before JeffW will get jealous and put a stop to it! |
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Location: Carle Place, NY | Stephen's right. I almost got screwed on a payment once so I converted to a premier account. I don't care for the 2.9% fee on all payments received, but I think of it as insurance. However, the more transactions that you do the more your chances are of getting caught up in the myriad of rules, exceptions to the rules and other crap that PayPal has. It's a monopoly. For that matter so is eBay.
There's good reason why there are a whole bunch of experienced sellers that will not accept PayPal. There's also several websites devoted to problems that useres have had. Just Google "paypal sucks" and check out how many hits you get.
So far, I too have been for the most part lucky. Eventually though I know that the odds are that I'll have some problem. |
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Location: Boise, Idaho | For the record, I've never sent a hot check to Tupperware. So Ron, don't worry about the check for the Ute. It was on my wife's account and she's good for it. If I had to write the check, you might have cause for concern. Since I refuse to carry a purse, I let her control the pursestrings.
I haven't bought much from ebay and haven't sold anything, but all the buys were with Paypal and haven't had any problem. All 5 deals with OFC members have been excellent. |
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Location: SE Michigan | So what are some of the big problems you guys have had with paypal? |
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Location: closely held secret | Everytime I get money they want some of it... |
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Location: Campbell River, British Columbia | Originally posted by dvd:
Glad we can use "Canadian Tire Money" though! The true national currency of Canada. Canadian Tire (snidely often called Cambodian Tire) is one of the largest general merchandise hardware store in Canada. (Invading Home Depot is either hot on their tail or passing them as we speak)
They're a part of the culture. Like Timbits, canoes, and poutine. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | I've used paypal when buying on fleabag and never had a problem. You guys gotta be talking about selling. I've not done that yet. Waiting for money really sucks do a fee for it right not isn't that bad a thing. This monopoly and exploiting it is. |
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Location: SE Michigan | OK here I go causing trouble again....but what makes Ebay a monopoly?
You have NO OTHER choices or methods to sell your stuff? There are NO OTHER online auction services? And if you use Ebay, you are not required to use paypal, granted that it's promoted by Ebay, but you can still take checks or money orders or even a charge card if you are set up for that.
It just seems to me that Ebay and Paypal are guilty of being successful and that just pisses everybody else off. I applaud Ebay's success, they figured out the right idea at the right time. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | OK Brian, since you asked, I will give you a recent example.
Sold a effects pedal on ebay for $158 about 6 months ago. Well about a month ago, I notice that Paypal has pulled the money (which was not longer there....so according to their rules they get to pull it straight out of your bank account...which pissed me off...STRIKE ONE).
When I contacted Paypal and was given the royal run around, I finally got a hold of someone and asked what the hell was going on!!!! They informed me that the buyers credit card had been reported as stolen so paypal and the credit card company were refunding all of the so called "FRAUDULANT PURCHASES". They did say if I could provide proof of delivery that the money would be reposted to my account.
Ok, I try to be a reasonable fellow and I felt that the request was reasonable....even tho it had been OVER 6 MONTHS and the chances of me still have the delivery receipt was not good.
So anyway, I do manage to find the delivery receipt and fill out Paypals paperwork and send them a copy and wait forever....AND THEY DENY MY CLAIM w/o giving any reasons. So I get back on the phone (waiting the customary hour) and finally get a supervisor. I explain all the bullshit that has gone on and he calmly explains that even though I had shown proof of delivery to the address, I did not get a delivery signature. (STRIIIKKKKEEE TWO)
At this point I AM PISSED OFF AND BALLISTIC but I calmly point out that since I had mailed in the paperwork, I had realised that the buyer HAD LEFT ME POSITIVE FEEDBACK stating he had received the item!. What more PROOF DID THEY NEED!
Well....mumble, mumble, mumble...we will have to get back to you. About 2 weeks go by and I get notified that my claim has BEEN DENIED and I would not be receiving my money back. (STTTTRRRRIKKKKKEEEE THREE!!!!)
After getting another Paypal supervisor on the phone, I was told that the CC company had determined my claim was not legit and was refusing to give the money back to Paypal who therefore refused to give it back to me.
BULLLLLSHIIIITTTT....
That was just one of the recent 3 events that has happened.
Paypal cares about:
#1 Paypal
#2 Paypal
#3 The Buyer
#4 Paypal
#5 The Seller
in that order.
I have used Paypal for years, for hundreds of transactions, but this was the first of several incidents where I realised how powerless I was when it came to dispute/resolutions. Unlike credit card companies, Paypal is essentially God and they do whatever they decide and you can't do a damn thing about their decision.
For those of you who had not had a problem, GREAT...I wish you the best because up until 2-3 months ago I felt the same way.
Now, PAYPAL CAN KISS MY ASS! |
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Location: Central Massachusetts | Brian, not that I disagree with you.. I happen to like eBay and I tolerate PayPal as they haven't screwed me quite yet.
But, eBay is effectively a monopoly in the auction space. While there may be other online auction services out there, their audience is paltry compared to eBay. While eBay may not own 100% of the market, I suspect they would be subject to anti-monopoly laws if pressed.
Look at Microsoft.. technically they aren't a monopoly either.. after all, I can run Linux, or FreeBSD, or Solaris, or any number of other obscure operating systems on my PC. Or I can switch to a Mac and leave Microsoft behind entirely. (For the record, Linux and Mac for me!)
But that hasn't stopped Microsoft from having to pay out hundreds of millions of dollars in fines for anti-competitive behavior. |
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Location: SE Michigan | OK Brian, since you asked, I will give you a recent example.
Ouch!!! I feel your pain. That really does suck.
But I have a question, did you ship to a paypal verified address? All of my auctions state that I will only ship to a paypal verified address. This step basicly makes sure that the address I ship to belongs to the true owner of the account. And I'm pretty sure if you only ship to a verified address, then paypal covers these situations. |
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| Paypal sound like IRS, they can justify anything they want to do if you have an account in the federal banking system. The bank takes their word for it, not yours... |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Stephen, I am sorry this has happened to you. I'm sorry it has happened to anyone. Paypal and the credit card company's behavior is intolerable. You have every right to be upset. Any chance you might be able to recontact the buyer and work this out between him/her and you? This makes me rethink Paypal. I've never sold anything on the Bay, but I have made well over 200 purchases, primarily through Paypal, and have accepted several payments via Paypal on a few private sales. Our motorcycle club uses Paypal (thousands of transactions annually) and I am not aware of anything going wrong yet. This sickens me. |
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Location: SE Michigan | But, eBay is effectively a monopoly in the auction space. While there may be other online auction services out there, their audience is paltry compared to eBay. While eBay may not own 100% of the market, I suspect they would be subject to anti-monopoly laws if pressed.
Microsoft crossed a line when their software prevented other software from being used, or when when their bundled software implied that other products could not be used (netscape).
It just seems plain wrong to me that a company can be an enormous success due to innovation and good timing, and all of the sudden they are branded as an evil monopoly. Next thing you guys will be calling Martin a monopoly because they build excellant guitars and sell a ton of them. |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Yes, it was a verified address and the buyer had literally hundreds of transactions though paypal.
Paypals total disregard for my rights was just the first step in a serious of "gottcha sucker"! |
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Location: south east Michigan | I'm not a "Premier" member so they do not have my bank account numbers. I've toyed with the idea of upgrading my membership but I don't want to be that friendly with them. Now I'm sure I don't want to give them access to any of my accounts. |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Stephen, this is why you will always be MY bitch. |
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Location: SE Michigan | Yes, it was a verified address and the buyer had literally hundreds of transactions though paypal.
So your buyer (with a verified address) used a stolen credit card? I would call the local police (where the buyer lives) and file a credit card fraud report.
Even if the guy was legitimate but the credit card was in some goofy status, it is his responsibility to make it right, kind of like if he gave you a bad check.
But I do agree, paypal should be eating his lunch not yours. I would be making more phone calls if it were me, including one to my bank about an unauthorized withdrawal, I would also be calling my local prosecuting attorney about a credit card fraud complaint. |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | I AM a Premier member....and I thoroughly dislike PayPal, despite (luckily) never having gotten shafted(other than the outrageous fee structure for sellers). Their move to promptly ban the Google payment feature just shows that they won't play fair. Brian....there are NO other real options for online auctions. There WERE (remember Yahoo auctions?), but they have all been bulldozed by the eBay/PayPal juggernaut.
Not sure if U.S. anti-trust laws would apply to a business doing world-wide activity like eBay. With the current political climate, I doubt that anyone cares, there are bigger fish to fry.
Martin isn't a monopoly???? (just kidding)
Roger |
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Location: closely held secret | I set up a new account at a different bank. I keep nothing but the minimum in the account, and when paypal payments come in I transfer them to my bank account and TAKE IT OUT. Paypal can't take what they can't get to. |
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Location: NJ | I (begrudgingly) opened a PayPal account for the sole purpose of buying OFCswag. Two months later, I got charged for 3 transactions that I didn't MAKE.
Their Customer Service(?) staff are complete incompetent fuckwits. I had the displeasure of dealing with numerous ones on the phone. They all sucked.
After having the 3 purchases (total of @$125) deducted from my credit card, I thereby cancelled the card and patiently await the joyous day that I hear that they've been involved in some corporate scandal and have gone belly-up. F@ck'em. |
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Location: Carle Place, NY | My problem with PayPal was similar to Stephen's. However, PayPal did not withdraw the money from my bank account. I did not know that they could do that. I was able to resolve it although the customer service there really does suck big time.
Bottom line is that selling/buying with eBay/PayPal is a gamble no matter what you do. 99.9% of the time it goes well, but when you end up in that .1% you get screwed. The most frustrating part is that both eBay and PayPal openly advertise that you are "protected" when in actuality you're not. |
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Location: SE Michigan | Two months later, I got charged for 3 transactions that I didn't MAKE.
Wow...I guess you guys really do have something to bitch about. I guess I've just been lucky, well over 100 transactions through Ebay and Paypal and no problems.
But I'd be pissed off as well under these circumstance. |
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Location: Central Massachusetts | Originally posted by Waskel:
I set up a new account at a different bank. I keep nothing but the minimum in the account, and when paypal payments come in I transfer them to my bank account and TAKE IT OUT. Paypal can't take what they can't get to. Waskel, this is the way to go. Thanks for the tip! |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Brain, it was a legitimate credit card used by the buyer but he later reported the card as lost/stolen.
Actually I did contact the buyer and he graciously sent me a check for the pedal and apoligized for my troubles. He said that the credit card company was doing all of the reclaiming on their own and he wasn't involved in it (or even aware until he started being contacted by people like myself).
Waskel, if the money is not in your account for paypal to reclaim, they will show you with a negative balance....forcing you to put money in the account if you ever want to use it.
If you ignore the negative balance, after 60 or 90 days (don't remember) Paypal will shut down the account and turn it over to a collection agency to collect for the balance.
They have proven to me they are a piece of shit outfit :mad: that I will be wary of from now on. The other two incidences are different but just as bad....one involving a refund and the other with me as the buyer.
Jeff.....as long as you continue to treat me well and take care of me like you do, I will always be your bitch
;) |
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Location: Spokane, WA | I really haven't had any problems, per se, with PayPal. I sell alot of stuff on eBay, (feedbacks like 2350 or something) in the 4 to 5 dollar range, and the fees for small transactions are steep. It ends up being like 12-15 percent. The percentage is smaller for larger transactions. But, it is smooth, and fast, and reliable, and I've just decided that it's a necessary expense for selling on eBay. |
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Location: New Hampsha | Having sold a couple of thousand items on the Bay over the years, I can truly tell you that PayPal SUCKS!!!
They always prtect the buyer no matter what and have contributed to several really slick scams because of this. So for those of you who use PayPal as a buyer; go on doing so, but you'll never deal with me.
Upgrade your account so you can accept credit card payments - go ahead! Then Paypal takes the credit card cut from EVERY payment even if it was made with a cash transfer.
Hey Buyers! Want to get your item for free? Just buy it using Paypal and wait for the delivery. If there was no delivery confirmation on the shipment, you're home free - just claim you never got it and Paypal will yank the money from the seller's account and give it back to you - You got a Freebie!
If there is a delivery confirmation, it's a tad harder - just claim it was damaged. Send the empty box back to the seller with a delivery confirmation and Paypal will once again give you your cash back. Freebie! If you don't have the cojones to be so blatantly dishonest, send your bad crankshaft back to the seller and keep the good one you bought from him.
Ask me how I know! I dare you!
If you are a seller and accept Paypal it is just a matter of time before you get screwed. Paypal engages in fraudulent banking practices that no bricks and mortar establishment could ever get away with, but because they are on the web they are not covered by banking rules - they know it and they are judge, jury and executioner and steal your money at every turn.
PAYPAL SUCKS! |
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Location: Minden, Nebraska | I have been using PayPal for years with not too many problems, but have one going on now. I may have to weigh in again, but I also may have to pay them a visit. Their operations center is only a few miles from where I live. Sorry to hear about the other woes... |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Mitzdawg speaks the truth! |
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| Waskel, Excellent suggestion. I thought before that without an account balance, paypal can't snipe it, and they sure can't send you a bill! So, basically they will 'take the money and run' if it's available. The PayPal theme song... "Take The Money and Run"
(Thank you Steve Miller Band!) |
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Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub | Those of you who need an outlet to vent your frustrations and or educate yourself about PayPal's Dark Side...
PayPalSucks |
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Posts: 1900
| Jeff W., Excellent website. No doubt they have a serious team of attorneys. Nothing but a monumental 'class-action lawsuit' will ever stop PayPal's criminal activities. I imgaine if we did a chronology survey, we would see that PayPal's dubious activities increase at the end of each month and the end of each business quarter. Hmm... |
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Location: The State of Hockey | I think Mitzdawg is right. As a buyer it is great. But as a seller it is not so good. I fortunately have had no problems as a seller yet. |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | I've found that you can't sell well on eBay without taking PayPal. If you don't take it, all you hear from bidders are whines about "why don't you take PayPal?"....and if you try to only accept Paypal from bank account transfer only (if you don't have a Premier account), you have continuous problems with people trying to pay with a credit card, who don't read the listing, who then whine "why don't you take credit card?".
On top of that, when I didn't take PayPal, my items didn't sell well. The bid amounts picked up noticeably after I started taking it.
I finally gave up and got a Premier account(and get ripped every time for their exorbitant percentage). Crossing my fingers that I don't get burned.....
Roger |
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Location: New Hampsha | My last 2 cents:
Roger - I agree. After I stopped Paypal my sales dropped and the amount realized per item dropped. But when I took Paypal I got burned on about 1% of the transactions; I don't anymore (knock on wood). Sometime I might do the math and see if the money lost up front is made up for by the money I lost on the 1%.
BUT, my feedback scores improved because I didn't have urination contests every 1%. Overall, I feel it's less stressful to do business without using russian-roulette Paypal.
Another thought - I sell mostly used motorcyle parts, which is inherently riskier than selling something that's shiney and new, as how I describe something might not calibrate with someone else.
Scammers don't care - if they want what you have you will get burned, regardless of how honest you are!
Weigh your risks and make yer choice! |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I have waited to comment on this, but basically I think ALL are correct. I have had a couple of small issues with PayPal, all were resolved easily. The convenience is worth it to me, especially when it comes to the shipping part, but may not be for everyone.
As far as the Sucks.com websites... there is one for just about EVERY major (and a few not so major) companies out there. walmart, paypal, ebay, Microsoft, Netscape, AOL, Ford, Chevy, they all have dedicated hate sites someplace. Put just about any name in google as "xxxx sucks" and you will find pages on pages of rants.
I have found in ALL cases that I did a little digging, there was ALWAYS something a little more to the story. I have set up a couple of clubs, to use PayPal for memberships, store, donations etc... They don't use eBay at all, just their own site, never a problem.
But, I repeat what I said first. ALL of the above opinions are correct for the people providing them. However, like with anything, know the risks, know the pitfalls, know the advantages and the disadvantages and make the best choice for you.
As a buyer, if someone doesn't take PayPal, unless I know them, I buy elsewhere. |
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Location: Omaha, NE | Originally posted by dvd:
But, eBay is effectively a monopoly in the auction space. While there may be other online auction services out there, their audience is paltry compared to eBay. While eBay may not own 100% of the market, I suspect they would be subject to anti-monopoly laws if pressed. On what basis? The stuff you are talking about with Microsoft was fundamentally different than anything eBay does.
I've got no particular affection for eBay, but there is no logic in the "large market share = monopoly" statement. |
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OT: Paypal