OT I need to vent
alpep
Posted 2006-12-19 12:17 PM (#225864)
Subject: OT I need to vent


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10492

Location: NJ
Monday evening is usally a night that the lovely and talented suzipep and myself drop off packages at ups and then stop off at a local pizza restaurant that has a monday night special.

we sat down in a booth ordered our pizza and settled into a long conversation solving the woes of our personal life and the world.

a mother and her kids sat in the booth behind me. somewhere in the middle of my third slice of pizza the duaghter started to violently swing her legs and kick at the booth. I did not say anything but turned my head towards that booth to indicate to the mother that I was annoyed. she asked the child to stop but the child continued.

after the fifth time I tuned around and said "hey that is really annoying and I am trying to eat my dinner over here"
the mother replied with " I asked her to stop and she did"

well if the child did I would have never said antyhing.

So my back is toward this bim and she is trying to catch suzi's eye to give her a nasty look or say something to her. we get up to pay the check and the bim sneers "happy holidays"
which I replied "you too"

Have we degenerated so much as a society that when a child does somthing wrong it has to be turned around on the person they annoyed?

back in the day My old man would have dragged me out of the booth made me apologize and then made my backcside red.

now I am the bad guy because I expect people to discipline their children.

some people should never have kids.
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cliff
Posted 2006-12-19 12:29 PM (#225865 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14836

Location: NJ
Procreation Should Require a Permit.
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Capo Guy
Posted 2006-12-19 12:34 PM (#225866 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 4394

Location: East Tennessee
Al,

I see what you are talking about everyday. I try and not act like a crabby old man but sometimes....

We now live in society where bad behavior,(even by adults), is the norm.

My peeve is cell phones I really don't like to be in a public place and listen to someone else's phone conversation.


BTW; MERRY CHRISTMAS
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MrDano
Posted 2006-12-19 12:42 PM (#225867 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
May 2004
Posts: 338

Location: Toronto
I feel your pain Al - often. I have 3 kids and we are out in public together quite often. If any one of my kids behaved in that kind of manner I would take care of it the same way my old man did to me.

Nothing wrong with laughing and giggling and enjoying yourself - it's another thing to bang and jump and kick and run around and scream... arghhhhh....
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Jeff W.
Posted 2006-12-19 12:43 PM (#225868 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039

Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub
Originally posted by alpep:
some people should never have kids.
... and I'm one of them.
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CrimsonLake
Posted 2006-12-19 12:45 PM (#225869 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
August 2006
Posts: 3145

Location: Marlton, NJ
Al - as a parent of a few kids who have their moments in public places - you did the right thing in letting the bim know. I'm amazed at some the of things kids get away with. My kids think I'm a nazi at times... if only they knew how it was when we were kids...

GGG - I agree with you on cell phones too... even the people who are driving and having a conversation on a handheld like there's nothing else going on... if it were up to me... mandatory headsets in cars.

And while we're bitching... I just got back from a tour of the local Gamestops and other electronic stores in search of the illusive Nintendo DS Lite... WTF!!! The thing has been around for a few years now. My son is getting an IOU for Christmas.

On a positive note... I did not encounter any bad behavior by any grownups today... that in itself is a Festivus miracle!
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stonebobbo
Posted 2006-12-19 12:45 PM (#225870 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
August 2002
Posts: 8302

Location: California
I think they've made it illegal to spank or otherwise discipline your children. It's now the responsibility of the school system to establish and enforce parenting standards.

See Al, things have gone to hell since you retired.
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bauerhillboy
Posted 2006-12-19 12:47 PM (#225871 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
February 2004
Posts: 1634

Location: Warren,Pa.
I've felt those exact same things many,many times Al.
John <>{
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Jason_S
Posted 2006-12-19 12:51 PM (#225872 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
August 2006
Posts: 2804

Location: ranson,wva
our 2 teenage boys have their moments in public as well,if i had my way i would blister their ass but that will get you locked up these days..

i also agree with the cell phones in public and in cars. when im out eating with the family or something the phone is off. i hate it when some moron is driving and paying more attention to the phone than the road. when im driving i hate to answer the phone but if i have to my headset will work both the cell and the 2way on my nextel....jason
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MWoody
Posted 2006-12-19 12:59 PM (#225873 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13931

Location: Upper Left USA
Its getting harder and harder to shame some adults any more!

Petty soon words like spanking, a$$whoop'in and smack'in will say "archaic" in Websters.

Yup, I'm old...
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alpep
Posted 2006-12-19 1:01 PM (#225874 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10492

Location: NJ
suzi says to me "Al, you can be scarey to people that don't know you"
my response "good"

I agree with cell phones. I stood outside the pizza restaurant finishing my phone call before I walked in.

stonebobbo I guess you are right.

jeff W. I often tell my nieces and nephews if I had kids DYFS (aka CPS) would be knocking on my door every other day.
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Capo Guy
Posted 2006-12-19 1:04 PM (#225875 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 4394

Location: East Tennessee
Al,

This is a great subject. We all need to vent sometimes.

BTW; Did you save the pizza box for future guitar shipments?
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MWoody
Posted 2006-12-19 1:06 PM (#225876 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13931

Location: Upper Left USA
Its easier to have kids than it is to get a Buildng Permit - something is all wrong.

My peave is the kids climbing and standing in the Grocery Cart while Mom/Dad are oblivious.
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alpep
Posted 2006-12-19 1:08 PM (#225877 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10492

Location: NJ
Originally posted by Gospel Guitar Guy:
Al,

This is a great subject. We all need to vent sometimes.

BTW; Did you save the pizza box for future guitar shipments?
I did

and your point?
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lanaki
Posted 2006-12-19 1:11 PM (#225878 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575

Location: big island
well al, i only have one thing to say and it's...

"In Jersey anything's legal as long as you don't get caught"

that leaves a world of options for you!
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Jeff W.
Posted 2006-12-19 1:18 PM (#225879 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039

Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub
I took this pic of my bratty nephew as we were driving home from the beach...
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lanaki
Posted 2006-12-19 1:23 PM (#225880 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575

Location: big island
Again, the words of a very wise man ring true, "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction will drive it far from him" Proverbs 22:15 "He that spares the rod, hates his son, but he that loves him chastises him at times" Proverbs 13:24
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Tupperware
Posted 2006-12-19 1:37 PM (#225881 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
January 2005
Posts: 4903

Location: Phoenix AZ
Al, It's you own damn fault. You should have stopped after 2 slices!
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TexasDoc
Posted 2006-12-19 2:59 PM (#225882 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 1116

Location: Keller, TX
My kids have learned. They don't act up in public when I am around (my wife is a little more lenient).

There are plenty of ways to inflict pain that are 1, unnoticable to others watching and 2, don't leave marks.

Too bad others don't care about disciplining their children.
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Styll
Posted 2006-12-19 2:59 PM (#225883 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
November 2004
Posts: 382

Location: USA
haha

its all that parents with kids "need to get out thing" you know im all for that but have respect back for those who dont.

somehow ive learned to ignore it.

but...
If i had done that i would have either been told to relax...punished...slapped...or we would have left...

usually all of the above was a guaranteed given.

Then I would have heard it from the old man when we got home and got it all over again.

I think it all went to s*%*t when all the suing of the parents began.
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Mark in Boise
Posted 2006-12-19 3:13 PM (#225884 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12698

Location: Boise, Idaho
When a local family sued the school district because they wouldn't let their daughter attend school with blue hair, I decided to send ours to private school.
My wife tried the no spanking thing, but after our eldest's second or third tantrum, I cured the problem the old way. There is no reasoning with a little kid, it's kind of like talking to your dog, but they know who is bigger.
Last Christmas I was wrestling with my nephews and one of them bit me. Without thinking about it I slapped him across the face. My brother's a psychologist and I thought I was going to have my uncle privileges withdrawn, but instead he told me my nephew wanted to talk to me. My nephew apologized and I apologized and we decided we would still be best friends. I haven't been bit since. Some other parents would have sued me.
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Mitchrx
Posted 2006-12-19 3:17 PM (#225885 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 1071

Location: Carle Place, NY
The thing that I worry about is what kind of people these undisciplined, spoiled, self-centered little brats are going to grow up to be. Selfish, inconsiderate, crybabies most likely.

I don't like to be too pessimistic, especially around Holiday time, but the total lack of control that some parents exhibit in public over their kids is downright scary.

While I'm on a rant (hey, Al started it) don't blame the schools for the failure of the parents. My wife is a H.S. principal and she's seen it all. Also, this stuff goes on irrespective of income level. I see it on the NYC subways in the poorest sections of Brooklyn as well as at some swanky malls.

Many here were raised, as I was, in the 60's and society was different then. Parents gave you a good whack when you stepped outta line. It was expected. I'm not advocating violence against kids, but some parents are are really controlled by their youngsters, instead of vice versa.
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MWoody
Posted 2006-12-19 3:38 PM (#225886 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13931

Location: Upper Left USA
"The thing that I worry about is what kind of people these undisciplined, spoiled, self-centered little brats are going to grow up to be. Selfish, inconsiderate, crybabies most likely."

Don't worry. Their children will rebel and have discipline.
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lanaki
Posted 2006-12-19 3:44 PM (#225887 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575

Location: big island
Look at how the mainstream media has molded the kids (and adults) who spend hours watching it. The movies/TV shows/video games that support respectable family values are about non-existant. Watch how the most popular sitcoms and animated features like The Simpsons treat the father figure and how the children in these families respond to the adults. How many families still honor and enjoy the sit-down meal time? Where are all the non-wimpy dads?

My wife and I rarely go to the movies anymore, however, last night we took advantage of some theatre gift certificates we received for my birthday back in September. My step-son and his girlfriend, who gave me the certificates, came over to sit with our daughters. We saw Will Smith's new movie, "The Pursuit of Happyness". Finally, a true story about a hero dad. We really enjoyed this flick even though we suffered right along with the main character through all of his trials.
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an4340
Posted 2006-12-19 3:56 PM (#225888 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 4389

Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands
Happened yesterday. I was unchaining my bicycle from in front of a music school that has a pre-k for wealthy kids. One of the kids is watching me and starts rapid fire coughing on me. The mother is nearby and sees this and does nothing. I tell the kid it's rude and unsanitary and not nice to cough on people. I stand up and stare the little bugger down. I glare at the mother. The mother comes running over and takes her disease ridden wealthy germ factory away from my presence. Not a word was spoken about how you shouldn't cough on people. Sad we need another September 11 to put the fear of god in people. Unless they have this fear, I see no other way to make them care for their fellow man.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2006-12-19 4:14 PM (#225889 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15421

Location: SoCal
When my kids were younger, I found that a lot of disiplinary problems could be solved witht he judicious use of duct tape.....
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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2006-12-19 4:17 PM (#225890 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7090

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
Thanks for this months input to the "Yep, we'll never have kids" montra.

When we were back east, we would visit a friend who had kids or something like that for our monthly dose of "nope, still don't like'em, still don't want'em."

Out here we haven't met many folks yet and frankly the kids seem to be more behaved here, but still, kids will be kids. I had a group of teens ruin a day for Lisa and I this weekend. I prefer not to go into what I did, but sometimes, even if you don't have kids, ya need to be the parent.

Unfortunately for me, I never did the things I see kids do today. From what I recall I wasn't taken out in public until I could act right (hence the reason I still don't go out much). But seriously, I was never around smaller kids that acted out, so I never know what to do, and never know what is a "kid being a kid" It's very frustrating. I usually just deal with the adults of the kids and over the years that's usually involved Law Enforcement on some level. When the adults aren't around, I usually do the "wrong" thing, just out of anger.

I agree, it should require a license to have kids.

I will say, (and this will probably create a stir) of the kids I have met in my entire life, when I think of "good kids", 90% (probably more) are raised by single parents.
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Waskel
Posted 2006-12-19 4:23 PM (#225891 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
February 2005
Posts: 11834

Location: closely held secret
Originally posted by Mr. Ovation:
"nope, still don't like'em, still don't want'em."
Miles, was that something you heard around the house a lot when you were growing up? ;)
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Capo Guy
Posted 2006-12-19 4:39 PM (#225892 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 4394

Location: East Tennessee
Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
When my kids were younger, I found that a lot of disiplinary problems could be solved witht he judicious use of duct tape.....
I still remember what Ivory soap tastes like.
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CrimsonLake
Posted 2006-12-19 4:43 PM (#225893 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
August 2006
Posts: 3145

Location: Marlton, NJ
I think that one of the big differences today is that kids think that they can act when they're alone with friends ALL of the time. There are no boundaries anymore...

I blame TV (aside from the main source of blame of course.. the parents). What did we have when we were kids... The Little Rascals, Bugs Bunny, etc... violent? yes... maybe a little racist at times? yes.. but they were always fearful and respectful of their parents.
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lanaki
Posted 2006-12-19 4:52 PM (#225894 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575

Location: big island
My Three Sons, Leave It To Beaver, Father Knows Best, Make Room For Daddy, Lassie, The Cosby Show, Eight Is Enough, to name a few, and even The Brady Bunch all had respectable father figures. Things started going downhill when Archie Bunker invaded our homes...yes, we got lots of laughs but the trend in deadbeat dads has continued since.
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Mark in Boise
Posted 2006-12-19 5:05 PM (#225895 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12698

Location: Boise, Idaho
On Mitch's point, I didn't mean to blame the schools. Exactly the opposite. Spoiled parents of spoiled children have made it difficult to educate the children. Parents expect the schools to teach everything, including things that parents should be teaching and then hamstring the schools so the schools can't provide the discipline or moral values that the parents should have instilled in the kids. Then if the kid is a brat, it's not his fault, he has ADD and the school didn't do anything about it.
On a national basis, parents are failing to take responsibility for their kids and are turning the teachers into babysitters with no authority.
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CrimsonLake
Posted 2006-12-19 5:09 PM (#225896 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
August 2006
Posts: 3145

Location: Marlton, NJ
I tell the teachers I'll sign a discipline waiver (of course with the kids listening). It's ridiculous the way the inmates run the asylum.
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alpep
Posted 2006-12-19 5:52 PM (#225897 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10492

Location: NJ
don't get me started on teaching stories.....
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Jewel's Mom a/k/a Joisey Goil #1
Posted 2006-12-19 5:56 PM (#225898 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 1017

Location: Budd Lake, NJ
There are a few reasons for hope: I offered my granddaughter, age two-and-a-half, some of the crackers I was munching on (my mom taught me not to eat in front of people without sharing) and she replied, "No thank you, Gramma, I don't care for any." The daughter and son-in-law are obviously doing something right.
I don't have a lot of tolerance for badly-behaved children, either; but it's not the child's fault if he's not taught how to behave. When I do meet children that are a pleasure to be around, I make it a point to compliment the parents.

--Karen
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lanaki
Posted 2006-12-19 6:06 PM (#225899 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575

Location: big island
Amen to that Karen!
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philmax
Posted 2006-12-19 6:28 PM (#225900 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
June 2006
Posts: 659

Location: Hiram, Georgia
The bottom line on children misbehaving in public, is some people have more money than manners, and they show love by lavishly spending on undeserving little brats.
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Mark in Boise
Posted 2006-12-19 7:13 PM (#225901 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12698

Location: Boise, Idaho
Early in our marriage, one of the couples we would hang out with had a son. We didn't have kids yet and we used to get into discussions with them about discipline and spoiling kids, especially an only child. They always said we didn't know what we were talking about because we didn't have kids.
They had another kid about the same time we had our first. They had tons of problems with the first kid, who always seemed to be jealous of having to share with his younger brother. Mom and dad got divorced and last I knew the oldest was in jail. Ours are not perfect, but the oldest graduated Summa Cum Laude and has had a job for over a year. Youngest just got another 4.0 semester. I think a little discipline goes a long way.
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Trader Jim
Posted 2006-12-19 7:30 PM (#225902 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
June 2006
Posts: 7307

Location: South of most, North of few
I won't tolerate my child missbehaving in public or in private, hense, I am a little less tollerant of other's children also. I feel your pain, and agree. Parents need to " be the parent" and not a friend. If you don't set boundries for children when they are young, they will find it harder to obey any later in life. Proverbs 22:6 pretty well covers it.
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TexasDoc
Posted 2006-12-20 2:36 AM (#225903 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 1116

Location: Keller, TX

"The thing that I worry about is what kind of people these undisciplined, spoiled, self-centered little brats are going to grow up to be. Selfish, inconsiderate, crybabies most likely."
Terrel Owens (TO) comes to mind.
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muzza
Posted 2006-12-20 7:03 AM (#225904 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
August 2005
Posts: 3736

Location: Sunshine State, Australia
Just after I got my teacher's qualification and my first teaching post in an inner London boys state school, I had a discipline issue with a student. I won't bore you with details, but it ended up with me giving him a backhander to the front of his shoulder.

It wasn't a 'whack', but more to get his attention, as he wasn't listening to me. I immediately had his attention for about 5 seconds, then he says "you just assaulted me" and walked out of the room. I imagined my new career walking out with him.

To keep cutting the long story short, a lot of panic ensued, I reported the incident to my department head, the school principal and the student's school mentor.

By this time, the kid's twin brother was telling anyone who'd listen that "we're gonna get Mr Sheppard sacked" (that's me)

I then phoned the kid's mum to throw myself at her mercy.

She listened to my story and then said "what are YOU doing apologizing to ME???" HE should be apologizing to YOU. Just wait 'til that little **** gets home"

This kid and his twin brother were 2 of my worst and most disruptive students until that day.

They became 2 of my best and most responsive after that.

I was VERY lucky to get to deal with a sensible and realistic parent. It could have gotten VERY ugly.

The world's not all bad.

Yet!
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philmax
Posted 2006-12-20 9:17 AM (#225905 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
June 2006
Posts: 659

Location: Hiram, Georgia
Glad it turned out well for you, Muzza, teachers and school systems are at the mercy of bratty parents these days.
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ProfessorBB
Posted 2006-12-20 10:18 AM (#225906 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 5876

Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains
I feel Al's pain.

On the other hand, let me relay another story. Mrs. and I also went to one of our favorite pizza places last night for dinner. There was a table of children, maybe in the 4 to 6 years age group, just having a ball. Their parents were seated at an adjoining table. At least two families were represented. While noisey, the children were not obnoxious at all. I even thought the hockey game on the blaring television was more annoying. I kept thinking about Al's comment and was waiting for the activity to exceed the limit, but it never happened. In fact, I thought to myself, there are few sounds as sweet as a child's genuine laughter with a close friend. I told the parents so as we departed.
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cliff
Posted 2006-12-20 11:19 AM (#225907 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14836

Location: NJ
Half of it (if not MORE) is the parents’ fault.
When people have children, there’s a tendency to NOT go out in public, NOT to socialize, or NOT take part in things because they “have kids”.
The kids (especially when they are smaller) are brought up in a sequestered atmosphere, always exposed to the same small circle of people,
and when they finally DO get out in a public gathering, they act like dogs that are on a leash for the first time.

When my daughter was born, the ex & I owned & operated a retail florist. From the time she was two-weeks-old, she was continually exposed
to public interaction. When we went “out”, she went WITH us. Granted, we were somewhat cognizant about the types of restaurants we brought
her to. We would ask the host/hostess if they could possibly seat us somewhat removed from those that might not want to dine with/near
a young child. If she got ‘restless” (and ALL small children eventually WILL), I’d just pick her up and go for a “strioll” just to change the
atmosphere/environment for her, and alleviate the boredom. I ended up eating a lot of cold dinners back then, but we ended up getting private
guided tours of some pretty swanky restaurant kitchens, and shared a goodly amount of quality time together.
After not-too-long, the “strolls” became unnecessary.

Taking kids “out” when they are young exposes them to different foods, tastes, and (after enough “exposure”), restaurant “decorum”.
My daughter eventually learned that when a waiter/waitress approached the table, it was time to be QUIET and listen to what they had to say.
The whole “ordering” process got to be so second nature that she often ordered her favorite meal from the menu (usually held upside-down)
before she learned how to read.

It’s all just a matter of exposing them to it EARLY & consistently, NOT letting them get away with bad behaviour because they don’t do it
“all that often”, and let them have a little “fun” while you’re treating them like an “adult”.

. . . and the best thing is to have “a Look”. Just basic, non-verbal, eye-language that tells them “You’re now on Thin Ice . . DON’T Proceed”.
My daughter is 21, and to this day I can shoot that “glare” to her from across a crowded room, and it will literally stop her heart mid-beat.


Keeping kids home because you’re afraid of how they’ll behave, will generally give you kids that behave badly in public.
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MWoody
Posted 2006-12-20 11:36 AM (#225908 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13931

Location: Upper Left USA
So Al, how about them Home-Schooled kids?

Fuggetaboutit.

To this day I hear a baby cry and my right elbow comes up...
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cliff
Posted 2006-12-20 11:50 AM (#225909 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14836

Location: NJ
. . I tend to scan the horizon for the nearest body of water . . .
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Slipkid
Posted 2006-12-20 12:15 PM (#225910 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 9301

Location: south east Michigan
Cliff...
That was a great post a couple back.
We have tried to do the same thing.
There was a couple times out to dinner when we were complimented on the behavior of our boys.
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seesquare
Posted 2006-12-20 12:23 PM (#225911 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3229

Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
For the record, I'm on vacation from the clinic. This is WAY too familiar, and continues to elevate my blood pressure. Operant conditioning- I learned a set of values & behaviors that made me relatively successful in the capitalist culture. Conflict breeds frustration, and a drive for stress reduction. Its permittable to admit ignorance, and inexcusable to perpetuate stupidity.
Bad behavior is just bad behavior. I have absolutely no reservation in telling a parent,"Your obstreperous child has learned no respect in their life- for themself, or for you. They are reacting to chaos & uncertainty. No, there is nothing biologically wrong. YOU need to attend a parenting program, and we've got the best one, anyway. When will you start?
Pay my office manager on your way out. Have a nice day!"
Then, I see the next case- "SS/DD", if you know what I mean.
And, people complain about healthcare costs. So, how do this rate on the "rant scale"?!
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dvd
Posted 2006-12-20 12:31 PM (#225912 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 1889

Location: Central Massachusetts
Originally posted by cliff:
Keeping kids home because you’re afraid of how they’ll behave, will generally give you kids that behave badly in public.
Cliff you nailed it. We have twin 2-year old daughters and we too make a big effort to socialize them and include them in our activities rather than just staying home.. It can sometimes be a struggle when one or the other of us is out with them alone, but that's how they learn. It makes all the difference.

The other trick is to know your kids well enough to know what you'll be able to pull off on a given evening. I can usually read them pretty well ahead of time and determine how kid-friendly of a restaurant we'll feel comfortable with. Sometimes we just have to throw up our hands and hit a drive-thru. ;)
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CrimsonLake
Posted 2006-12-20 12:40 PM (#225913 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
August 2006
Posts: 3145

Location: Marlton, NJ
Cliff - same here... where we go, they go. To add to that line of reasoning though - if the parents behave badly in public - the kids will follow suit no matter how exposed they are to different situations. If they see you treating people with respect, they will learn to do the same.
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lanaki
Posted 2006-12-20 12:46 PM (#225914 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575

Location: big island
I agree with Brad, Cliff. Great post! Being a stay-at-home dad with two wee ones, it is nice to hear good tips like yours. My daughters are with me 24/7 with the exception of when I have a gig and they have even been at a couple of those. The church environment is one where many children learn that there are times to sit quiet and times to interact. But I am always thankful that we can retreat to the "Daddy's Room" when necessary. I appreciate the compliments my wife and I often hear about our daughters behaving so well. I imagine that WalMart security cameras have captured our two year old wandering the aisles seemingly by herself a time or two though. She's an independent shopper like her mom.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2006-12-20 1:04 PM (#225915 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15421

Location: SoCal
We had no problem with taking our kids out when they were younger. But then I also had no problem taking them out to the car from the restaurant when they were behaving badly.

Of course, now they're teenagers and don't want to be seen with us.....
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cliff
Posted 2006-12-20 1:29 PM (#225916 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14836

Location: NJ
Smart Kids.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2006-12-20 1:35 PM (#225917 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15421

Location: SoCal
Typical teenagers....
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brainslag
Posted 2006-12-20 1:39 PM (#225918 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 1138

Location: CT
I have 2 cents, so let me up my post count.

First off let me say - LOL! Festivus, for the rest of us. A classic! Don't forget the aluminum pole. "First we'll have the airing of the grievances, then... the feats of strength..."

Now a couple of observations:
1. T.V. these days is bad. The Simpsons is not for little ones, but it is a cartoon, so off the bat they know it's make-believe (it was funny when Daffy Duck got it in the face with both barrels, but we knew it wasn't real, so we didn't do it to our friends). The sit-coms these days are nothing but crude jokes, sexual innuendo, or just come right out and offend. It's all the norm now, and it won't get any better.

1. Lawsuits are out of controll. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't it start with the hot McDonald's coffee? The judge should have thrown it out. If it were me, I would have said -
A. - Did you order iced coffee?
B. - Would you have complained, or returned it if it were lukewarm?
C. - So then you expected a hot cup of coffee?
D. - Did a McDonald's employee spill it on you? or did you spill it on yorself?
E. - NEXT CASE!
So now we have parents who are affraid to discepline their children, teachers who aren't allowed to discepline, police officers who offten get into trouble for using 'excessive' force - when it's not(sometimes it is, though and shame on them), harrassement suits of all shapes and sizes etc. and don't get me started on overweight people who sue fast food franchises. They didn't shove the food down thier gullets.

3. Kids these days are over stimulated with hundreds of TV channels, video games, the internet etc. They need to be entertained 24/7, and have little imagination. Remember when mom told you to get out of the house? You found a friend an went fishing, or bike riding or built a tree house or fort, or played cowboys and indians or whatever, and it was lucky if you were back by dinner. I tell my kids to go outside, and 2 minutes later they're back telling me they're bored. Ugh!

3. People who don't discepline at all aren't doing their kids any favors - but the no spanking method doesn't work. My sister-in-law was a big proponent of this before she had kids, but it didn't last long afterward. It also makes my blood boil when a child does this little insignificant thing in public and the parent goes ballistic, and shakes and hits the kid. But I can't say anything, because of the yelling at I would get from said parent afterwards.

Anyway, it's clear society is changing, and not for the better. I can say a lot more, some of you would agree, some wouldn't. Let's just do the best we can with what we have, tip a glass, and go play our guitars.
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cliff
Posted 2006-12-20 1:44 PM (#225919 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14836

Location: NJ
". . Lawsuits are out of control. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't it start with the hot McDonald's coffee? . ."

You're wrong.
It started with the creation of the Lawyer.
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fillhixx
Posted 2006-12-20 2:20 PM (#225920 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
November 2005
Posts: 4806

Location: Campbell River, British Columbia
Originally posted by cliff:
From the time she was two-weeks-old, she was continually exposed...
Most places have laws about that kind of thing
When we came “out”, she went WITH us.
I can just picture you all at the pride parade
this day I can shoot that “glare” to her from across a crowded room, and it will literally stop her heart mid-beat.
I've read of similar parents in Stephen King novels.
:D
Having never had children, I have always been an expert and kindly helped all my friends raise theirs. They really seemed to appreciate the help. :rolleyes:
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Mark in Boise
Posted 2006-12-20 2:25 PM (#225921 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12698

Location: Boise, Idaho
Sorry, Cliff. A lawyer didn't give that lady any money, a jury did. And a few years before that, people didn't go run to a lawyer everytime something happened that didn't please them. Blaming it on the lawyer is a cop out failure to acknowlege a larger societal problem. Juries reflect our society's values and unfortunately American values have gone to hell. The lawyers didn't change those values, they just used them.
When people stop making frivolous claims, a lot of us will be out of work. But there will be more lawyers as long as there are people who are willing to hire them.

Edit: I was just getting ready to compliment Cliff on the wisdom of his post about children and then he reverted to the dumb cheap shot, so I took my turn to rant.
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caitly
Posted 2006-12-20 2:33 PM (#225922 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 45

Location: Oakton, VA
The McDonald\'s Case

This post asserts *nothing* beyond taking extra care when handling McDonald's coffee.


-Tom
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caitly
Posted 2006-12-20 2:38 PM (#225923 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 45

Location: Oakton, VA
The McDonald\'s Case

Sorry, boys, for the bad link.

Hope this works.

-Tom
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cliff
Posted 2006-12-20 2:39 PM (#225924 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14836

Location: NJ
And a good rant it was.

Mark, it was nothing personal and you DID offer a lot of VERY valid points.

. . . but living/working amongst the highest concentration of lawyers per square mile in the world, I can offer little sympathy.
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an4340
Posted 2006-12-20 2:40 PM (#225925 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 4389

Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands
Don't scoff at blaming the lawyers. They're like drug dealers addicting addicts. The enablier is worse than than the addict. It's a cop out to say what lawyers do is not their fault, rather it's societies. It's like some ghetto kid saying he shouldn't be blamed for a crime since "society" made him do it.
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an4340
Posted 2006-12-20 2:43 PM (#225926 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 4389

Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands
I'm not saying there aren't a lot of good honest lawyers out there, I'm just saying that there are some that are only interested in making money and don't care how much suffering they cause, especially when championing an unjust cause.
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ProfessorBB
Posted 2006-12-20 2:58 PM (#225927 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 5876

Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains
Just and unjust are not things that were taught to us in law school. Due process and the protection of individual rights was. I work with thousands of lawyers. Most are very bright, thoughtful, and well-caring individuals. Some are very thoughtless and have very questionable ethics. However, nobody appreciates a good lawyer joke more than a lawyer.
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brainslag
Posted 2006-12-20 3:09 PM (#225928 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 1138

Location: CT
While we're on it, what does everyone think of the "No Child Left Behind" bill. OMG, give me a break. They should have called it the "Your Too Stupid To Pass School, So We'll Just Make You Feel Better About Yourself" bill. What a great way to get grades up in this country.
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fillhixx
Posted 2006-12-20 3:19 PM (#225929 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
November 2005
Posts: 4806

Location: Campbell River, British Columbia
Lawyers are no better and no worse than the rest of us...they're just better trained in semantics and the minutiae of law.

And when YOU want one, you'll go looking for the meanest pitbull bastard-who-never-loses that you can find. If you don't, you're a fool. Because the other side just did.
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lanaki
Posted 2006-12-20 3:27 PM (#225930 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575

Location: big island
Originally posted by brainslag:
While we're on it, what does everyone think of the "No Child Left Behind" bill. OMG, give me a break. They should have called it the "Your Too Stupid To Pass School, So We'll Just Make You Feel Better About Yourself" bill. What a great way to get grades up in this country.
The NEA's agenda, believe it or not, is to dumb down our children in preparation for the New World Order. They want masses of slave minded workers who cannot think for themselves, have no national pride and no moral absolute thought processing. This is in accordance with the United Nations Agenda 21. Look that up if you want to see where the designers of global governance are leading us.
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an4340
Posted 2006-12-20 3:38 PM (#225931 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 4389

Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands
Sounds like the NEA wants us to be lawyers (If you subscibe to the theory that lawyers need not concern themselves with moral absolute thought, or justice). That would be great, a whole nation of lawyers, no I take it back, a whole world filled with nothing but ...

You know what, this rant took a wrong turn ...

Can someone please get it back on track? New pot plants are resistant to herbicide and can grown all year round! Now that\'s good news.
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Jeff W.
Posted 2006-12-20 3:42 PM (#225932 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
November 2003
Posts: 11039

Location: Earth·SolarSystem·LocalInterstellarCloud·Local Bub
This thread explains why Old male Grizzlies kill cubs...

call this guy next time you run into outta control kids, Worked on Cartman:
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lanaki
Posted 2006-12-20 3:43 PM (#225933 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575

Location: big island
somewhere along the way, the whole world took a wrong turn. can Someone please get it back on track?
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lanaki
Posted 2006-12-20 3:45 PM (#225934 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575

Location: big island
jeff,
cesar could do the trick if our kids all had a pack mentality...
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cliff
Posted 2006-12-20 3:56 PM (#225935 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14836

Location: NJ
perhaps he should be a moderator here . . .
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fillhixx
Posted 2006-12-20 3:58 PM (#225936 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
November 2005
Posts: 4806

Location: Campbell River, British Columbia
Originally posted by an4340:
Can someone please get it back on track? New pot plants are resistant to herbicide and can grown all year round!
Speaking of 'dumbing down,' how about journalists...people who work with words for a living...using herbicide and pesticide interchangably?

"In Alice in Wonderland, the Red Queen tells Alice: “A word means what I want it to mean.”
The more we speak in this fashion, the more we may as well bark at each other as pretend to communicate. I got that on the down low....! :rolleyes:
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lanaki
Posted 2006-12-20 4:09 PM (#225937 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
October 2006
Posts: 5575

Location: big island
http://www.thehawaiichannel.com/travelgetaways/10575232/detail.html

now they're sending babies through airport x-ray scanners...
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fillhixx
Posted 2006-12-20 4:50 PM (#225938 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
November 2005
Posts: 4806

Location: Campbell River, British Columbia
How else you gonna find the car keys?
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rededdie
Posted 2006-12-20 11:48 PM (#225939 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 387

Location: Whitecourt, Ab
Nothin like a dose of radiation to clear up a nasty diaper rash...
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Mark in Boise
Posted 2006-12-20 11:53 PM (#225940 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12698

Location: Boise, Idaho
There's a good reason you don't have children, fillhixx.
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fillhixx
Posted 2006-12-21 1:38 AM (#225941 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
November 2005
Posts: 4806

Location: Campbell River, British Columbia
Well yeah, there's that too. But the court order expires in 37 months and I don't have to take the pills after that if I don't want!
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philmax
Posted 2006-12-21 11:18 AM (#225942 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
June 2006
Posts: 659

Location: Hiram, Georgia
back on track, just last night trying to finish up some shopping in a dept. store, I'm kneeling down, browsing the items on the bottom shelf and I feel a breeze on the back of my neck, I turn to see (approx)4yr old, swinging a 3ft stick of some sort, thru the isles, and the mother ASKS the child to be more careful, of coarse, he carries on, not hearing a word!

Reminds me of Bill Cosby Himself, back in the 80's, telling about 4yr old JEFFREY and his mother on the airplane :rolleyes:
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MWoody
Posted 2006-12-21 11:43 AM (#225943 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13931

Location: Upper Left USA
I actually do practice some restraint and try to offer kindness before a growl but...


... remember in the newer Twilight Zone when the hitchiker played by Dan Akroyd asks "Do you want to see something REALLY scary"?

Have you ever wanted to just scare the bejeebers out of the little miscreents! Send them screaming back to their Mama just short of assuming the fetal position in shock!

Be truthful...
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philmax
Posted 2006-12-21 11:59 AM (#225944 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
June 2006
Posts: 659

Location: Hiram, Georgia
THAT WOULD BE FUUNNNYYYY!!!!
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Jason_S
Posted 2006-12-21 2:24 PM (#225945 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
August 2006
Posts: 2804

Location: ranson,wva
verry offten mike..jason
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caitly
Posted 2006-12-21 5:55 PM (#225946 - in reply to #225864)
Subject: Re: OT I need to vent


Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 45

Location: Oakton, VA
Vent?

OK ... what about those screaming lunatic kids in the BMW commercial? They are turning me homicidal.
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