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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | This is a RE-POST from back in December when there wasn't really anyone besides Alex I could bore with my stories. Also, I see a distinctive lack of posts so far about the great solid bodies and semi-hollow guitars that Ovation made..
It all started in 1975 when I picked out an Ovation Matrix (factory second) at River's Music in Middletown CT, to take to college. Almost 27 years later, I still have this guitar, and it still plays fine. And yes, you CAN wear down the frets on an aluminum neck!!! (hmmm the finish is cracked a little too... I wonder if I can still get it completely overhauled at the factory for $35.00??)
I joined the Navy in 1977 and whilst in Pensacola Florida, I decided to get plugged-in. I had tried out a Deacon many times, played thru a Rockman of course, but due to budget brought home a Viper instead. I still have this guitar also, although it had many mods over the years, and currently has a Kahler trem and a Carvin M22 in the bridge.
I guess I actually started "collecting" Ovations around 1990, when I was getting out of the Navy and living in VA. I found 5 at once at a pawn shop, and picked them up at a good price. I thought about collecting them, and realized the prices where reasonable, so started checking around.
I made some calls and eventually met up with Alex of www.lostartvintage.com. I also talked to a few folks at Ovation who assisted in tracking down parts. Then www.ebay.com happened.
The rest is pretty much a blur. I now have over 75 solid-body and Storm series Ovations. The key to my collection, is that most are in excellent condition, and are as they were sold from the factory (no mods). You might be surprised to know that I have very few duplicates!!! Yes, there were a ton of Ovation solid-bodies made, and I don't mean just in different colors.
As an example... take the simple "Viper" or the "poor man's Les Paul" as it was referred too.
There was the standard Viper, then later the Viper III and the Viper 12-String, and a Viper bass (yes a solid-body bass). Then, there are two different bridge styles for the standard Viper, bringing it up to 5 Vipers. Apply this same basic trend to Breadwinners, Deacons, Preachers and the Storm Series. Add in, the Ultra GS's and Ultra GP, UKII, and PF22 and it adds up. I'm working on a website www.baronaudio.com/collection to share these great guitars.
Any other solid/semi hollow players out there?
Miles |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Miles,75 ovation solid bodies,WOW!! I thought i had a lot.I think i sold you half of those didnt i ?..well,i started collecting in around 1993 or so and now have one of everything as well,in other words every color deacon,breadwinner,Hurricane,Thunderhead,tornado and of course my two very rare Jerry Reed Thunderhead in dead mint condition(only about 10 made) and the one and only Double neck deacon with red stain finish!! That one is a beast and i call it my "SPINAL TAP" guitar..It just looks like something that should have been in the movie..And YES ,the volume knob does go to ELEVEN!!!Just kidding.. Unfortunately though it does not have any FLAMER on it.It is made from a single piece of the most beautiful mahogany you would ever want to see....... |
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Location: NJ | Miles
I my opinion the solidbody guitars are bargains. Where are you going to get a guitar today with an ebony fingerboard solid wood body schaller tuners with all the craftsmanship that Ovation puts into them at the Price? even the rarest solidbody wouild probably not bring more than 1K on the current market and average guitars bring in the 3-500 range all the time.
These guitars were rather innovation with on board preamps before anyone else in the market did it.
again in my opinion part of the lack of appeal is that the ovation electric pickups are proprietary and cannot get swapped out with other ones easily. In the seventies it was very chic to take and put a dimarzio or mighty mite or some other pickup in your guitar. I think if standard pickups were used then there would be more of appeal for guitarists to use the model. As it stands you either like the ovation pickup sound or you don't if you change pickups you ruin the character of the guitar by altering the pickguard.
as for the storm series guitars they are every bit as good as other semi hollow guitars on the market today. the difference only lies in it you are comparing them to set neck designs or not. Again I think they were a high quality alternative to the guitars out on the market.
the gs series stuff is also a bargain and the LP shaped guitar is stellar. I guess that these guitars will come into their own at some point but maybe not....as we know everything runs in trends and fads and deacons breadwinners and limited have been keeping a respectible value so have some storm series guitars..can the viper and preacher be far behind? time will tell |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Al, you make some great points about the ovation solid body guitars..They are absolutely a great value for the quality you get...Here is what i see the future of the Ovation solid bodies..From my experience the Blue breadwinner will always be the most valuable simply because there were probably less than 50 built and im guessing only about 20 surviving today if that many.I have seen a total of 4 surface in 10 years...So, of all the solid bodies they would have to be the most desirable or rarest..Of cource the deacon 12 strings would have to be next along with the very rare 12 string hurricane models,very few made..The one that will suprize you is the Ultra GP(guitar paul) model,very few made and a quality instrument...I dont even want to tell you what those are selling for..Its crazy..The reason for that is the fact that this guy named Josh Homme from "Queens of the stone age" plays one and several magazine articles have been written about him and his guitars.In fact the guitars are pictured in the magazine.He plays the GP exclusively and loves them.Ever since then the stock of these guitars has gone thru the roof..I still get several e-mails every month looking for these guitars..These are the sleepers in the whole bunch....Who would have thunk it?? Anyway, the deacons ,breadwinners are probably the next most valuable and collectible.The original ones though without the electronics ripped out of them..The thunderheads would have to be rated pretty high a s well..Then the preacher deluxe and viper 3 models...The ones i dont see rissing as quickly is the preacher and vipers,UK2's...Although great quality guitars,there is just a bunch of them out there.They are simply everywhere.I dont see them gaining as much in the future..But Overall they are solid quality guitars that are still a bargain...... |
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Location: NJ | Sam
it is my understanding that the folklore of the GP guitars rs that they were made by Yamaha and would be similar to the sg 1000 or sg 2000 but with ovation ornamentation. I have not seen a GP in person so I cannot make that assement in any real way but if they are then they would really be a bargain since the yamaha stuff of that era (thnk the carlos santana yamaha ) are very well made and cool collectible guitars. Maybe Bill can shed some light on this for us. |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Al, i think your are correct,and Bill can confirm this,the GP's were built in Korea factory but assembled here in the states.My understanding was that in 1983 ovation was out of the solid body business but had already ordered these bodies and necks..So, rather than scrap the wood they decided to go ahead and asemble these guitars.As it turns out,they are very,very nice solid body, set neck guitars..THe flame maple caps were very nice quality and flamy .The pick ups were Demarzio super 100's and the finish was excellent.I have heard some people compare them to a gibson les paul and ceratinly "Josh Homme" playing them and talking about them in Guitar world(nov. 2000)and a few other articles had helped these guitars surface and has shed the spotlight on them..I know when i first saw one up close it felt and looked like a quality instrument..It has that yamaha,ibanez feel like Al mentioned.It seems like they may have been built by the same manufacturer?Bill, could probably answer all these questions though..All i know is that the Ovation guitar that almost never got built is probably the best Ovation solid body ever built(in my opinion)...I have a catalog with all the detailed specs of these guitars.I will read it this evening and post any good info i find.. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I think the PF-22's were really the best guitar that "never got made" as it were. But I agree the Ultra GP is a quality instrument that was just overlooked. My favorite is still the Viper. I agree with Al that the "not being able to mod it" was a factor. Now that I'm older, I really don't want to make any mods, because it (they) have a nice variety of tones as is. One of the features I like the best is the Volume and Tone control.
In the day... I played through a Rockman most of the time, but even through a regular amp... especially a tube amp.. one has so much control right on the guitar. Because the Rockman is a compressor, I used to leave the guitar volume and tone set at about half for a fairly clean full sound.. crank up the volume for crunch, and crank up the tone for leads. It never really changed the overall volume coming out of the amp which was nice in arena situtations where amps were mic'd. Then of course, you had the pickup combinations too. In one simple instrument you can get the bite of a strat, the crunch of a Les Paul... and using the neck pickup and tone control... everything else. I does a real nice bluesy, a'la' Santana on the neck pickup with the tone about half open. Back the tone all the way down.. and poof... your ZZ-Top. Turn on BOTH pickups, volume down to about 1/3rd with the tone all the way up... instant Danelectro!!!
ahhhhh those were the days... |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I wonder if anyone is lurking on this thread that would shed the "real" story behind the PF-22's. |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Here are the specs of the Ultra GP from probably the only catalog that even mentions these guitars.They were offered in four finishes.Black,honey sunburst,wine and cherry sunburst.They had schaller machine heads and tailpiece,22 fret,24" 3/4" scale,Two humbucker Dimarzio DP104/super2's...rosewood fingerboard,pearloid dot inlays........Miles,i will e-mail you a pic of mine and you can maybe somehow load the pic on to this topic.I have no idea how to do that so i will e-mail you the pic.Maybe some members would like to see what these guitars look like.
The real story of the PF could only be told by the guy who created it"Bill Kaman"....I do know what the letters "PF" stand for but i cannot repeat it on a web site....he,he,he....... |
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Location: Louisiana | Hi everyone, I recently picked up a UKII in a pawn shop. It was real dirty and needed a fret level. Man!!!!!!!!! It cleaned up fantastic and plays absolutely wonderful! I really love the clean distortion that comes from it. It is a Brown Sunburst with ebony fingerboard with bow tie inlay. GORGEOUS! I love it. Now if I can find a case at a reasonable price I'll be set!
Mark |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Hi Mark,
Welcome... I may have an extra case around, but it's gonna take me a little time to get to it. I'm sure some of the other folks on the board might have an extra to sell, and you can also check eBay, as they turn up there from time to time. There are of course after-market cases.. but... it's just not the same..
Again.. welcome |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | OK Here's the story
GS and the GP stood for guitar strat and guitar paul. the bodies were made by samick and were assembled in North Carolina. Jerry Freed who was with IMC at that time convinced the marketing people that this idea would work and yes I bought into it too. Korean wood, American or Schaller parts, assembled in the states. Sounds good in theory. To top it off the marketing pukes felt it needed a different name so they were the hard bodies. anyhow they didn't work.
After these there was a very short run of guitars completely made in Japan at the Fugi Gen factory I recall. Another stunning nonsuccess. After this I said "get the message guys, we can't do SOLID bodies so quit trying" 2-3 years later we bought Hamer as a way to have a real good solid body guitar. Great guitar, Frank and Jol are great too and the Kaman Music performance with that guitar hasn't set the world on fire either, but at least it hasn't died.
The PF-22
We were still trying to have a soild body in the early 80's. Peavey had just come out with their first guitar and bass which had satin finish. Hartley also had just put out an ad that the headline was "It took me 22 years to create this amp" and showed him sitting on the amp holding the guitar. Randy Hess, ad mgr, rest his soul, said we should do an ad with me sitting like Frank in the Phi Zappa Crappa poster, on the can holding the guitar and the headline would be "it took me 22 minutes to create this guitar" Since we were going to kick Peavey's ass with this model we called it the Peavey Fucker. Hence the PF-22. the true story
Years later I told Hartley about it at a trade show and we both had a good laugh over it |
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Location: NJ | cwk2
great story
I had that same zappa poster on the back of my bedroom door growing up...my parents hated it. Next time I am at mom's I will look and see if she threw it out or if it is still around.
IMHO I think the PF 22 would have gave the t series peavey's a run for their money. I think they are great and really well thought out designed and constructed...but hey my opinion does not seem to set any trends in the musical instrument industry. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I'm going to agree with Al on thinking the PF-22 could have made at least a little dent in the market. For years, I was looking for a "strat" like guitar, humbucker pickups. Maybe a trem, maybe not (depends on my mood). I think it was Al that showed me the PF-22. All this and a set-neck too! WOW.. I played a T-60 for a little while... so from first hand experience.. I say the PF-22 blows it off the map. That's my 2 pence worth..
I wonder where my Phi Zappa poster ended up... |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Miles, the PF22 is a nice sounding guitar,i agree.Probably should have gone into production.But is it really a set neck? The three i had looked to be bolt-on necks with wood dowles covering the screw holes..Did they make some that were actually set necks or were they all bolt-ons with wood dowles? |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | A "set neck" is basically a "bolt-on" neck that is glued in. I think it is usually screwed on also for support, but I'm not sure always. Daion did this method also. The other style would be "neck thru" which is like B.C. Rich. where the neck and center body is one piece.. usually with wings glued on.
Now there is tons of threory and opinion on the resulting tone. One thought line is that the "best" tone is only created by the wood-to-wood contact between the neck and body on bolt-ons and on set necks, sound transfer could be impaired because of the glue barrier between the two parts.
The other theory is that properly done, the glue bond actually enhances the tone transfer between the neck and body of a set neck.
I think set-necks are sturdier, and also result in better sustain from the wood and the glue bond.
Miles |
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Location: Scotland | I seem to remmber Ovation making a big thing in thier solidbody publicity, about their necks being glued AND bolted. |
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Location: Jacksonville, Florida | Please excuse my relative lack of knowlwdge (I'm just beginning my vintage guitar education), but is the Ovation "Tornado" considered part of the "Storm" series? This particular guitar type has been showing up on E-Bay recently. It strikes me as an appealing instrument. My understanding is that the bodies of these guitars were imported from a German manufacturer and the necks used were identical to the Breadwinner necks. Can anyone tell me more about this model? |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Glued and screwed
We thought that this would be a better connection for the sound, to have it glued, better vibrational transference. They were bolted anyway so we added a piece of paper between the neck and body that was soaked in glue. This would glue the neck to the body and the bolts got the alignment correct. If the neck ever needed to come off you take off the bolts and just pop the back of the neck and the paper separates, off comes the neck
the pf didn't have bolts. the holes were there so we used dowls for location and totally glued it together. Necks on other Ovations will come off, PF necks won't
The tornado was like the thunderhead, eclipse, typhoon. The bodies were from Germany and the necks were made in New Hartford. The only thing they had in common with the bdwnr necks was they were both made from scratch in the NH factory
The original PF pickups were two single coils. We used the bobbins from the magnum bass rear pickup, drilled a hole between the two pole pieces for the third pole piece and set them. Dave Fiester from the Henry Paul bans had a fender custom and liked those pickups so I tried to get close to that. The pickups were mounted on a plate and were wired in the humcanceling position, (picture a P bass set up). the plate was the same size as a dimarzio so they could be changed if the owner wanted to and anything in the aftermarket would fit |
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Location: montreal | hey guys!
I'm new here, but i feel like I am home! i am a smalltime ovation collector....i only have six of the solids. I am also one of those lucky bastards who owns/exclusively plays/loves/worships an ovation Ultra GP. i gotta agree, that it is very underrated guitar....then again all the ovations are. I am surprised that more collectors dont seek them out. but hey, more for me! now i have a question....what does this PF-22 look like? does anybody have a pic? I've never even heard of them. the story was pretty funny and the name...well, it is quaint. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Welcome s_mkheidze
I am in the process of re-modeling, so excuse the quality of the below pics. Here are some examples of what the PF-22 might have been.
Here we have the early stages mentioned above. Note the different pickup combinations.
And here is what I have documented as, "This is a prototype of what eventually became the PF-22 guitar. The PF-22 never made it to production..."
And finally, this is I guess what one could have looked like had they gone to production. This is a nice red-burst.
My preference is the "proto that never made it." as I like the unique body design, the UKII Pickups are great, and the finish is nice. It plays great.
Enjoy and welcome to the fun...
[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Mr. Ovation ]
[ February 20, 2002: Message edited by: Mr. Ovation ] |
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Location: montreal | thanks man! wow, them is some purtty guitars! it really sucks that they never hit the production lines. I too like the odd-shaped prototype, it is very unique, but I fear that it would have also done badly on the market...just look at the breadwinners and deacons. I guess the public just wasnt ready for revolutionary guitar shapes. I only wish that ovation would release some new electrics...I dont know, an anniversry type thing. I just cant see the company lasting without the release of somthing new, i mean lately all their guitars look identical to eachother. the only exceptions would be the cv-68 and the ea-68 (which I have both), but even then. I just think it is time that they took a chance, its been close to 20 years since they did take a chance on the electrics. Also, their electrics have been gaining some fame as of late so it would be a good time to put out some new ones. Just my rant and my 0.02$ cents. |
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Location: NJ | guess you have not seen the tangents then? 4/2 headstocks and different sound holes. I saw these at the Namm show they are not a USA model but they are absolutely a risk in my opinion.
As cwk2 mentioned in other posts the Ovation electrics never were able to capture a significant amount of the market. Ovation does acoustics well and the electrics seem to be an afterthought to the general pubic.
If you look at the storm series they are every bit as good and in some ways surpass the current import 335 style guitars and made in the USA. I do find it difficult to compare setneck with bolt on neck so that is a significant difference in my mind.
as for a reissue if anything I could see the breadwinner since that is kinda popular but think about it you can get a very nice breadwinner/deacon/limited in the $500 range so if they were to reissue them and sell them for a grand or more which they would have to would you buy one? maybe if it had updated pickups and electronics but then you are just getting what many people have done with their orignal deacons a modified one. Who knows maybe Ovation can get Hamer to build a limited edition Deacon for Ovation fan club...set neck seymour duncan pickups ebony board bound and crowned...... |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | THe idea of a reissue of the deacon/breadwinner is a very good one.In fact i have mentioned that idea to a couple of people at ovation in the last two years..I think the thought of setting up tooling and trying to get back into production of solid bodies is not feasable.That would cost a fortune im guessing.However to go overseas and have them made would probably work.The deacon/breadwinners are very sought after now and i think would sell very well .."Is anyone at Ovation listening".....I put my order in for the first one ,serial # 001
(The first deacon/breadwinner was introduced in 1972,....30 year commemorative reissue)
[ February 21, 2002: Message edited by: samova ] |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Tangent....this guitar is a total pile of spoo. A stupid 4/2 that they'll probably get sued over. Makes you wonder, What were they thinkin??? or who's running the show? ever heard of Music Man?
not that I've been known to have a strong opinion about guitar designs.......... |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Hmmm someone went off on a "tangent" about a "Tangent." (sorry coudn't resist) Could that be the marketing ploy? Get people to talk about it... loudly.. and hopefully stir up enough buzz to sell a gaggle?
You must admit, it will look cool onstage and on MTV and I can only assume that is the target audience. As for tone, at mega-volume, that is lost anyway... but then.. It is a guitar... it should sound good first.
(Going off on a "tangent," about a "Tangent"... I crack m'self up) |
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Location: PA | I had no idea the Ultra GP was so sought after. I've had one since '88 but had no clue what it was until I started doing research acouple of years ago when I got in touch with Walter Carter, who wrote "The History of Ovation Guitars" He didn't have a lot of info on these, but at least got me going in the right direction. Anyway, if anyone reading wants to sell one.....LMK!
Here's a link to nice picture of mine, my P/U had been replaced before I bought the guitar and I recently replaced them w/ Rio Grande P-90's. This guitar is a tone king and plays fantastic. Does anyone know how many were ever made?
www.middlekid.net/images/ultragps1.jpg |
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Location: Zion, Illinois | Solid body Ovations really are a steal. I picked up a black UK II off of e-bay. I paid $195 for it (with OHSC of course). It is in great shape, ebony fingerboard with the bow-tie inlay. Great sound.
Where can anyone find such fine guitars for so little money?
I also got a Glen Campbell 6 string for my wife for $190. Nice
Bradley |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | $195!!! How come I wasn't on eBay that day? Anyway. I have a question about the UKII's. Were some made with the pickguard and some without? The reason I ask is that I have both, but the one without has very fine pin holes (like starter holes) where the pickguard screws would go, but it definately has never had one. |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Miles, great question.I had the same question about a year ago and the answer i got was that they simply ran out of the gold mounting hardware for the pickguards and therefore stopped adding the pickguards.It was towards the end of production and instead of looking for a vendor for the hardware they simply did not put the pickguards on them.Thats why the indentation is there on the body but the pickguard is not..If i remember the story right,the hardware was bought from someone selling the mounting hardware who had a lot of these left over,so they bought what was avialable at that time from him.When the hardware ran out they would have to go and find a vendor to make more and that was not cost efective since it was toward the end of Ovations solid body production.Thats the story i heard.Maybe Bill can shed some light on this?Anyway,thats the story i got from a reliable source... |
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Location: Zion, Illinois | There's an UK II on E-Bay right now, bidding is up to $200.
Also, if someone wants a spare Balladeer, someone is selling one with a buy-it-now of $260.
I was trying for an Adamas II, but it went for $930.
Bradley |
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Location: NJ | that is an excellent price on an adamas II you missed a fine guitar |
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Location: montreal | there is also a viper III on e-bay for those who seek it. good luck y'all! |
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Location: NJ | Hi
I just found this website last night. Cool, I didnt know there was anything out there.
I have two ovations. An Ultra model from either
'82 or '83, had it since new - it was a Christmas
present from my father when I was in high school.
Shortly thereafter I had gone to a local music shop for strings and saw a solidbody ovation. At the thime I did not know they made solidbodies.
They guy at the shop said nobody was interested in it, and I gave him $40. plus my cheap Ibanez
strat copy for it. I belive it is a Deacon Model,
tobacco sunburst finish, acitve electronics, and
it all works and is original. Recenlty had it
appriaised at $750 by Mandolin Bros. in Staten Is.
My interests are turning toward wood bodied dreadnaughts, I love the depth of the Martin tone;
however I'll always keep the ovation.
What is your take on upgrading the preamps in the
acoustics? Mine is dead. Local Mega-Center music store says send it back to Ovation, but the
ovation website doesent seem to be very much geared toward its older customers, just wanting to
tout the new models. For me a guitar is a lifetime thing. Maybe I'm crazy.
Thanks Anyway
Jeff |
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Location: NJ | Jeff
call the ovation service department ask for John Budny or Kim Keller tell then what model guitar you have and see if they have any preamps for it. if not you will have to upgrade to a new preamp and it would probably be better at that point to just buy another guitar and retire your baby for acoustic performances only. |
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Location: Scotland | I'd been having problems with the pre on my Early 80's C-Artist and upgraded with a used OP24 I found on Ebay. Ovation were great, & incredibly fast helping out with a few fiddly little missing parts. A guitar I was on the point of selling has become a treasure again. Don't dismiss a preamp upgrade till you've talked to the factory. The guy I bought the OP24 from had upgraded his guitar to an Optima.
Paul |
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Location: UK | I got my Viper from Ebay, about $300, it has been modded with Seymour Duncans but it is in pristine condition with OHSC, no scratches at all on the body, it's a super guitar and IMO is vstly underrated. Once gain shipped from US to UK, they are hard to find here |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Love my Viper, sorry if it doesn't have the optimal famousness. |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Viperman
Thanks for resurrecting this thread, I enjoyed it as much today as last year. We need as much discussion of the solid body Ovations as we can get. Enjoy your Viper and keep us informed.
Bailey |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | To Sam's question at the bottom of p2 from Feb. The mounting hardware came from the Harmony factory auction and when it ran out we quit the p/g. It seemed like lots of people were taking the p/g off their les pauls then anyway so we went with the flow. I am reminded that I've got a brown s/b UK2 fresh from the factory setup sitting in the basement. Someone else has room in theirs and wants it, contact me. It won't be 195 however. |
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Location: UK | Originally posted by Bailey:
Viperman
Thanks for resurrecting this thread, I enjoyed it as much today as last year. We need as much discussion of the solid body Ovations as we can get. Enjoy your Viper and keep us informed.
Bailey
OOOPS, sorry about that, not trying to up my post count, put it down to a newbie!
I was actually trying to find out if anyone posted much about Vipers, in the UK the are not well known (apart from the one used by Rick Parfitt from Status Quo for a while), but I just love Ovations, have for years, and yes, I really do like my Viper!
Didn't really look at the date. |
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Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 970
Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Bill, i can understand that it wont be 195.00 for the UK so i'll get a check out in the mail for $200....That will give you a quick 5 bucks..Pretty good profit if you ask me. :D :D :D |
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Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | Viperman
I was not being facetious about your bringing up the thread, I truly was glad to see it surface again and if you notice some great new information has come out because of your interest. Us solid body (in my case Viper) owners dont get enough of these kinds of posts. Every so often we do a search on some solid body term and watch our lives flash before us like a banjo player at Carnegie Hall when he realizes he showed up for a show featuring some new band called grass that has to do with the smoking kind. |
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Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 25
Location: UK | Hi Bailey
Thanks for that - you are right about sudden new comments appearing re: Vipers and solidbodies! |
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Solid-Bodies and Storms