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Location: NJ | I know that Ovation has a bunch of endorsors past and present but is there anyone you would like to see playing ovation guitars????
My choice is Richard Thompson. I don't know how many of you are familiar with his work but he is a stellar songwriter and guitarist. He is a great electric and acoustic guitaritst in his own right but proabably is best known for his work with fairport convention.
check out his album mock tudor it was released about 2 years ago and there is not one bad tune on it
OK who would you choose????
[ March 06, 2002: Message edited by: alpep ] |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Thanks for this question...
Upon thinking of an answer I notices that most of my favorite artists have played an Ovation at one time or another... Either I have good taste or they do... |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | The correct answer is that somewhere between 30-60% of all popular artists today should be playing Ovation. They're not. The company has a problem, and it's a big one and I don't think they appreciate the magnatude of it. They are more concerned with "return on investment" hence all the imported guitars and lack of committment to the New Hartford Factory (read US production). Hamer isn't any different. The words they should be focused on are "market share". I doubt anyone is asking the question "what do today's artists want in a guitar today and tomorrow? Where is the market going? What can we build that will give us a jump on everybody and make us the coolest guitar that everyone will HAVE to have?" Unfortunately the question they ask is "what's hot that we can copy in Koreea, or wherever, and sell containers full so our numbers look good to corporate so we can get bigger bonuses this year. This is what happens when bean counters get put in charge. It's a whole corporate philosophy issue, not an Ovation issue.
Sad but true, and as Freddie King said "It's a shame and a sin" |
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Location: Philadelphia, PA 19107 | I am so glad you brought up this issue, Bill.
Though not a specialist, but a huge Ovation fan, and a very modest Ovation collector, I totally agree with your statement. Unfortunately this is the current situation with Ovation production, market share and Ovation guitars. It is so sad facing a reality where young people walk into music stores to buy a cheap guitar (see Ovation), a Celebrity one or a Balladeer, an Ovation with super-shallow bowl (in most of the stores I cannot even find a mid-bowl Ovation any more), with laminate top, that has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the old glory! Sadly most of the young players have never seen or played earlier Ovations. They know nothing about the real ovation thing, nothing about the great history of these guitars. Unfortunately the logic "plug it in" is not enough and leads nowhere. Bottom line, Kaman Co. can import from Korea or China maybe, or why not, Afganistan, a flat plastic (Lyrachord) piece with 6 strings and a pickup to plug it in. That will do for the Corporation.
I am mostly an acoustic guitar player. I love acoustic guitars, the pure acoustic sound. I often visit most of the music stores in the Philadelphia area, my favorite is Medley Music, in Ardmore, PA, with very high quality guitars like Martin, Collings, Santa Cruz, Petros, Goodall, etc. I talk to people and I realize that for the acoustic guitar players there is a wave "back to the acoustic roots" origins. People love to get high quality wooden guitars, not necessarily to plug in, and enjoy playing. In our days most of the guitar makers make acoustic/electrics, with excellent qualities at low prices. For example Martin, Taylor, etc. Ovation HAS to come up with something NEW! Something genuine, a guitar that will combine the traditional qualities with a new perspective. Supershallow bowls, with laminate color (green, blue, etc) tops, for $250-300 won't do it. It looks and feels very cheap.
Something else: In order for this thing to happen you need NOT a Corporation-based philosophy, but a family-based thing, or a smaller guitar maker.
"It's a shame and a sin" but then what?
I would love to hear your comments?
[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: elias ] |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | CWK2, I agree with you in so many ways. It's unfortunate that... we'll call them folks.. apply the rules to a product that is/was (or at least should be) made by hand as they would to sell a car. This response was actually about a page long, but I shortened it... to a simple...
AARRRRRRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Thanks for listening. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | It's a shame and a sin...
What can you do??
You can send cards and letters to the president of the corporation and tell him it's all wrong.......for all the good it will do you.
Me, I've moved to Florida and sell jet fuel, hard to develope an emotional attachment for jet fuel. I still play my Hamers and for acoustics I've got several Nationals from the 20's and 30's. Other than that there's a couple of Collings, a Gurian, HD42-K and a slot head, 83proto, 87, long neck Adamas and a few others but I never play them, just the nationals.
It really is sad to see what is happening to Ovation. That's why I'm glad to see this site and how much activity there is. Maybe you all can get something started. If not, then someday all Ovations will be Vintage. Except the green and blue and purple imported shit, that will never be vintage |
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Location: Philadelphia, PA 19107 | Bill,
I would guess (correct me if I am wrong) that things started to go down after you left. Or may be earlier? Someone could say that the Ovation Golden Era was during Charlie's time (how is he doing really?), I want to believe that the glory days continued with you, taking over after your father, but when exactly things changed? Before you left Ovation? After that? Why did you leave the company? After all, the Kaman family created Ovation, and Kaman Co, but you went away.
O.K., your father was at certain age, he had to leave anyway, but you!? Why did you leave so early? What is the story? |
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Location: Coral Springs, Florida | I can only say that I've owned (but more importantly played) an Ovation for almost 30 years. I bought it because I was a typical young electric guitarist that wanted a guitar that played reasonably like my solid body (a Les Paul), sounded good, and cost "what I had in my pocket" (under $400). The Balladeer (1111-1) is still with me. (And I still play it)
Fast forward to today, I own about 40 guitars, (and while I was primarily an electric player in the past, I'm now primarily an acoustic player) many of them are very rare vintage instrument that represent 25 plus years in the vintage guitar business. I still own 5 Ovations. These older models are fine guitars and while my pre war (that's WWII, not 911) Martins and Gibson's are nice, I wouldn't think of playing anything other than one of the Ovations at the local coffee "house" open mike. It's not because I'm afraid of damaging the Martins or Gibson's, but the Ovation will never let me down. Always performs perfectly, no messy mike or pickup failure.
I have tried to make my friends see the light, but most of them have “too much money” to understand the “value”, rather than the “price” of a new guitar. In the old days my friends bought and loved Ovation because of the price point. Today these 40+-year-old buyers have $4000 “in their pockets” so they gravitate to Taylor, Santa Cruz, Collings, some even go for Martin's.
The entry level guys (with the $400) have so many options for good flattops in that price range that Ovation (imports) have much more competition, and with a consumer that reads as much as guitarist do, the first question will usually “disqualify” the Celebrity right off, “is the top solid?” Also add the finish used on the back of the neck, which doesn't look or feel like a natural material, and you begin to see why Ovation is viewed the way it is by new buyers. |
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Location: Scotland | We shouldn't lose track here, of the fact that the current high-end Ovation USA guitars are very fine instruments, which will stand up acoustically with anything in thier price range. Most of my Ovations are from the 70's (and I've seen & played the occasional dog from that period) but I'd happily buy a new Custom Legend or Custom Elite or Folklore. My SMT is a killer guitar. On a different subject, I'd be interested to know why the original-design Adamas guitars seem to have been deleted.
Paul
[ March 07, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
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Location: NJ | Wow I guess I did not anticipate the slant this thread would go but since it went in that direction.....
I think we all know why Ovation imports guitars it is to make money. I am not a "bean counter" but a musician collector and business owner and I can probably tell you that the accountants will tell you that the imports keep the US brand alive. that is all well and good but the problem lies in that there is no clear distinction currently made between the US and import models that have Ovation on the headstock. when they said celebrity fine you knew the difference now the line is muddy and even in the catalog the distinction between import and US is not always a clear one.
As a result most casual guitar buyers that have an interest in an ovation may look at a celebrtiy and play it and not like it not knowing that it is not the same quality of the US made instruments. This cloning if you will makes it sometimes difficult for dealers to sell usa guitars. I used the example of the mandolin before and again bring it up here to illustrate my point.
the guitar buying public changes currently thin body acoustic electric guitars are what are in vogue. The ovation fits that bill exquisitely. IMHO the best preamps out there are the takamine and the ovation. You just need to plug in the guitar and with minimal tweaking they are ready to go and sound great.
Ovation started as an acoustic company using an old d 45 as the standard of the gutar to beat. Some criticism of the brand by those that are clueless is "a plastic guitar will never sound as good as wood" well half right ...it could sound better. the wood top is what vibrates and causes the sound the back and sides just project the sound and if I am correct the round back eliminates dead spots found in traditional guitars.
the guitar buying public now wants a guitar that can be used both acoustically and electrically. this means that you will need to have a guitar that has a more even tone so it can be amplified more easily. this I believe is where the adamas smt fit in. the smt no where has the acoustic sound projection or definition of the woven top guitars yet it is a fantastic guitar to plug in.
there are few acoustic guitars made even by traditional companies like martin that are not equiped with preamps and pickups now. Well ovation still does it the best.
I have sold a number of 2001 collector guitars with the redwood top by just opening the case and having some one look at the instrument pick it up and play it. The guitar booms and plays itself. A truely wonderful guitar. the majority of people that criticize Ovation never played one of the high end models.
so what does all this long winded post mean? for me the bottom line is I know why the imports are produced and why they are necessary I just would like to see more of a distinction made between the lines so that the general public will know which is which. Gibson makes this distinction with the epiphone line and am sure that epi is keeping them in business but you know now if you buy an epi it is an import and if you buy gibson (after mortgaging your house) you get a usa instrument.
I LOVE the woven top adamas guitars. I think that if they were again made they would sell but who knows in what quantity. the q seems like it will really be iteresteing when and if it is ever reintroduced I played a couple I thought they were outstanding. I thought that when the adamas name was pulled off the model a few years ago that it was a big mistake. Even though some of you will argue the smt is not an adams it is still a good instrument.
every company sells entry level gutars. I hate when I go to some coffee houses and see all these martins with pressed wood tops and people think they are buying a real martin well they are not. prs imports the santana model and has a big disclaimer on the back of the headstock. BUT ultimately the quality of the import guitars has risen to stellar heights since when I was a kid and parents bought an unplayable piece of crap from the local muic store it is a wonder that I even learned how to play or stuck with it.
Guitar companies survive by selling new guitars. Let's face it most of you with large collections did not buy all those guitars new but used. that does not contribute to the sales of the company. Sure we including myself can say bring back the woven top adamas but I did not buy any new nor do I think most of the collectos here have not. so if they came out with a woven top would you buy one? I would because the electronics in the early guitars are not as sophisticated as the ones in the new guitars.
the used price and value of a guitar also contributes to the sales of the new instruments. if a guitar costs 2K and 3 months later it is valued at 500 bucks there is a slim chance of the company selling tons of guitars. the higher used values are the more appealing a new instrument looks.
Unfortunately cirrent economic conditions prohibit many from buying many instruments so they need it to function in a variety of situations.
sorry for this long post I promise not to post for a while |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Elias
Charlie stopped having much to do with music in 1985. He stopped play testing the Adamas guitars at #200 although he signed the lables till #600. I tested them from 200 on until the mid 90's when it got to the point that I was signing the lables and not looking at the guitars. I stoped signing them because I thought it didn't make any sence anymore. All you guys would like it but it didn't really mean anything so I quit it. Marketing bitched but too bad.
Charlie has had several strokes and is at home. He was retired from the company in 2001. On a good day has 50 cards in the deck, a bad day it's less.
The bean counters started their assualt around 95-96. If there is a start point, this is it.
I left the company on August 20, 1998.
Since then their "return on investment" has gone up and market share down. The slide continues.
It's a sad day when a Taylor (which, while a nice guitar, is as exciting as a glass of warm milk, Sorry Bob) can eat Ovation's lunch and smash the lunch box too and they sit in their offices and do nothing |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Elias
Charlie stopped having much to do with music in 1985. He stopped play testing the Adamas guitars at #200 although he signed the lables till #600. I tested them from 200 on until the mid 90's when it got to the point that I was signing the lables and not looking at the guitars. I stoped signing them because I thought it didn't make any sence anymore. All you guys would like it but it didn't really mean anything so I quit it. Marketing bitched but too bad.
Charlie has had several strokes and is at home. He was retired from the company in 2001. On a good day has 50 cards in the deck, a bad day it's less.
The bean counters started their assualt around 95-96. If there is a start point, this is it.
I left the company on August 20, 1998.
Since then their "return on investment" has gone up and market share down. The slide continues.
It's a sad day when a Taylor (which, while a nice guitar, is as exciting as a glass of warm milk, Sorry Bob) can eat Ovation's lunch and smash the lunch box too and they sit in their offices and do nothing.. |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Well, i guess i will throw my two cents in..I have been a long time(12 years) ovation collector and early ovation lover..I have over 50 early and rare ovation acoustics and solid bodies.My interest with ovation developed when my favorite artist(George Dalaras)was playing a 1978 Adamas on stage and i could not beleave the sound coming from that guitar.I had to get one.It was so amazing sounding and looking that i could not get that sound out of my head.I had to have one.When i bought my first adamas serial #328 i was hooked.I had to have more ovations guitars.Here i am 12 years later and over 50 ovation guitars later.Totally hooked on early ovations..
Having said all of the above,i want to say that i would not buy a new ovation today.Aside from the weavetop adamas which i like some but not enough to buy one,i would not buy any ovation produced today.I hope the management at ovation reads this..
Here is when ovation lost me and my business.In around 1978-1980 ovation went to a different bowl.It had more plastic in it than fiberglass in it.This changed the sound for the worse in my opinion.If you ever played any of the early guitars with the early bowls you will know what i mean...You can actually look inside the soundhole and see the difference in the bowls.The early ones had the mesh and fibers showing more on the early ones.The later ones were smooth inside and looked to be basically plastic bowls that a machine probably stamped out more economically.Then ,they took the beautiful "epaulets" design reserved for the high end adamas and elite and they start putting it on the cheap korean models.Suddenly no one can distinguish between the high end adamas and the cheap korean models..
When Charlie (and Bill later)ran the company,i was in tune with their thinking and i felt they designed and built guitars that were built for me.I was in line with the companys thinking and they were not only great plugged in guitar but sounded great unplugged..So, i agree with Elias when he says the "plug it in" slogan is a bunch of bull.There are a lot of guitar makers who have caught up with ovation on plugged in sound.There are some great electronics available on many acoustic guitars today.So, "plug it in" means nothing to me.I will plug in when i feel like it but how about when i dont want to plug in?? What do i play? a shallow bowl with no acoustic sound? Sorry, i dont buy it..I go to music stores and there is a sea of korean built "shallow bowl"ovation celebritys with really cool colors and lots of fake flame tops and other exotic woods and cool finishes but they just dont sound good.Not to mention the poor workmanship.I ran my hand below the bridge of several ovations at Mars music two days ago and there were huge waves in the tops.Some i could not beleave it ,you could see the wave in the top from 5 feet away without running your hand across the top.I cannot beleave they let these guitar out of the factory with these tops..
I look at ovations guitar magazine ads with young hip kids on snowboards advertizing an ovation in a shade of green i could not discribe. Im sure there is a market out there for those ,but not me?Ovation is obviously marketing to someone else,not to me...Maybe they dont care about me?Maybe its another market they are after?
As along time fan of ovations when i got to music stores and gaze at their new offerings all i can think about is the earlier days of ovation when guys like Charlie Kaman and Jim Rickard were there designing guitars that really sounded amazing plugged in and unplugged.The adamas,adamas II,country artists,folklore,Glen Cambell model,Josh White models etc...Well,now that i've vented maybe someone at ovation can tell me why im wrong and should buy one of their guitars? |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I want my Utopian society and I want it right NOW!. It's unfortunate that money drives everything. It's to some extent fortunate also, as greed has bred ambition which has resulted in many of the luxuries we have today. But more simply put Sam, is they can sell you one $1000 guitar, that probably costs $2000 to make (from lumber to shelf) or sell ten $300 guitars that cost $200 to make.
Hmmm I just thought of something while typing this. I wonder why guitars are so inexpensive. Odd statement you say.. Follow me on this. Add up the parts, including the raw lumber, tuners and electronics. Add up the shipping and packaging, and add up maybe 40 hours of labor (I really have no idea how long it takes). It seems just the labor cost (with overhead for insureance, and OSHA stuff, and the support payroll and HR folks for the people doing the 40 hours of labor...) would be over $2000 per guitar. How does any "large" corperate manufacturer of musical instruments make any money?..... I guess most of the posts in this thread answer that. |
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Location: Scotland | I know I'm likely to get pilloried for this, & I'm not trying to defend Corporate bullshit, but I believe quality guitars are actually too cheap. Bearing in mind our averge wages now, a Strat or Les Paul probably costs comparatively the same or less than when they were introduced. A couple or three grand for a professional standard instrument, that will last a lifetime & have the potential to earn it's keep many times over is a very reasonable investment. Unfortuately the public do not see it like that. They should take a look at what a classical musician has to pay for a decent concert-grade Violin (tens of thousands for a cheap one!) or the kind of money Jazz players will happilly pay for a new handbuilt USA archtop ($30-40) The problems lie with the market being led by a public who want maximum bang-for-the-buck & the industry having a hard time leading them anywhere else.
Sam, I think the bowl material issue to be so subtle in a real-world situation, i.e. miked, plugged in, recorded, eq'd, played alongside vocals & other instruments etc, to be of little consequence. The earlier, thinner bowls do sound different, but I'd challenge you to identify one from the other in a blindfold test.
I aggree that the distinction between the USA models & imports is blurred, & that has to be hurting acceptance by the unconverted.
Paul
[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
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Location: Paradise | Hi Paul (and others)
I understand the sentiments on the cost vs cost of living... But it still boils down to not "who can afford" but "who is the target." Bottom line is, you can still sell more $300 guitars than $3000 guitars. I think some of the smaller luthiers and guitar makers really have it made. They make a nice instrument (some) and they don't have to worry about a payroll of several hundred or more. If they make a few a year.. that's fine.
One point to ponder... Ovation has been making guitars for now 37 years. Think about all of the companies with much larger market shares in their respective industries that have gone down the tubes in the last 37 years. Maybe things are different now, but the fact that they are still there and still putting out some decent instruments is pretty cool. Who knows, maybe someday they'll do like Fender and others and open a custom shop where it's "back to basics" while the rest of the company continues. I must admit that at the 2001 Winter NAMM I was very tempted to buy a set of pickups hand wound at the show by the lady who now works at the Fender custom shop and has been winding them for Fender since 1957. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | LOL... I must be asleep.. that previous post was me. Lisa was logged on and I didn't realize it. |
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Location: NJ | Sam
please do not take this as a personal attack it is not meant to be. It is solely meant as a continuation of your discussion and points that you raised in your post.
you mentioned that you have been into collecting Ovations and were first turned onto them 12 years ago. Well this puts your involvement with the company way past your self proclaimed (but most likely true) golden years. At the time you were turned on to the Adamas guitar you could still have purchased an Adamas new from the factory. Sure it would not have the carved headstock but it would have fullfilled your wish for a guitar. When I was a kid I wanted a les paul just like duane allman I had no clue he played a 58 les paul so I went to the local store picked out a cherry sunburst les paul that looked just like duane's (in my mind anyway even though it was not the same gutiar) and took it home and played the hell out of it. My point is that although you are vey informed and have a large collection of ovations if you have not purchased any new guitars ever then you are not exactly part of the solution.
Walking into mars and checking out the tops on celebrity guitars and comparing them or trying to compare them to usa intruments is ludicrious. I know you are saying that these guitars represent the Ovation line and it is not up to your standards but may I ask did they have any USA made guitars ? did you try them? how was the level of craftsmanship on those guitars? I can probably say the same thing about many imports and their usa counterparts. Let us NOT compare apples and oranges but apples and apples.
I had a conversaion with Rick Hall and he told me that less than ONE percent of ovations are made without electronics and this has been true for at least 12 years and that this was dictated from the buying public starting in 1972!!!!! this falls within your golden age of Ovation period. I do not disagree shallow bowl guitars do not have the projection of the deep bowl but the difference between deep and mid is only 1/4 inch (according to Rick Hall) and the adamas line is made in mid bowl (excluding the melissa etheridge model I think) and lets face it if you are buying the guitar for performance and want a certain look you will probably want a shallow bowl since the guitar is used plugged in.
The only instrument currently produced with the deep bowl is the al demiola model. The buying public wants a guitar that they can plug in and Ovation was one of the first and still one of the best in that area.
Now I am not saying that the current usa guitars today do not sound good acoustically they do we will exclude he shallow bowl guitars. the last 3 years 2000 2001 and 2002 were stellar years for the collector's series in my opinion. these guitars were not only beautiful but had not good but excellent acoustic sound. I hope you get the opportunity to try one.
I don't think ovation is blind to building guitars for you but perhaps YOU are not looking for that guitar in the right place. I am positive that if you gave them the specs ovation would build you a guitar and it could be deep bowl with no electronics but when the general buying public wants shallow with electronics why should you deny the marketplace??? unfortunately for you the buying public liked the idea of plugging guitars in and getting a useable acoustic electric sound with very little trouble. the goal is to make money and they make money by selling new guitars. Since you by your own admission have not bought any new guitars then you never contribute to the advancement or the degredation of the company.
I am not sure about the bowl construction making that significant of a difference in the guitars but I will agree that every change does alter the sound.
as for snowboarders etc in the ads hey we all get old and times change. put glen campbell or roy clarke in an add now and you might as well flush the ad money down the toilet.
Personally I would love an old woven top adamas with the textured top brown sparkle bowl with the carved headstock with MODERN electronics so I could use it out with a label signed by bill kaman....hmmmm next years collector's series maybe????? but that is a wish and I WOULD buy one.
Again do not take this post personally I just felt the need to question and clarify some of the points you made. I too have my issues with the import line and the way the difference is blurred I think we are more in line with each other than apart. I just wanted to try to make you see an alternative view.
[ March 08, 2002: Message edited by: alpep ] |
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Location: Philadelphia, PA 19107 | Hello everyone! I think we should put aside all of our disappointments, hard feelings, bad experiences, and sad thoughts and look at the future with more optimism! We should look at that future with the same optimism as the guy (mdarling@ptdprolog.net), who posted his 1990 Collectors in ebay! Look at that!!!! Is there any better than that?! May be the lady holding the guitar while sitting on a Harley Davidson!
Enjoy the pics and no hard feelings!
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Elias, "nice epaulets" the guitar ain't bad either!!! |
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Location: NJ | maybe the new slogan could be ovations and bimbos perfect together
actually elias I prefer Indians and bmw's to harleys |
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Location: Philadelphia, PA 19107 | he, he, he ,he!!!
That could do too Al!, he, he, he.....
Anyway... |
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Location: USA | Phil Keaggy would be a great candidate to play Ovation.... |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Al, i did not take your post personally and i understand your point.Although i do not agree with all of it.No one wants Ovation to succeed more than me.I love the guitars more than anyone at this site.I own more than 50 ovations.Some i bought new.I feel like i care more about ovation than the guys running the show at ovation.
I started collecting ovations at 30 and am now 42.so, im not exactly past my prime(at least i hope not).I would hope that ovation is still marketing to guys like me and not just the hip young snowboarders.I fully understand why ovation is building korean built celebrity models.They do have a place in the market.I would never buy one because for $300-600 i am buying a seagull or a yamaha.better quality,better sound.And i dont expect ovation to use Glen Campbell in ads or Roy Clark.That would be foolish and a waiste of money..But the ads they use dont speak to me.Im sure i know the market they speak to..
Al, Here is where i have a problem with ovation and do not fully agree with you...
What has ovation done with its high end American line?..Example:They discontinue the Adamas and adamas two(two of their best sounding guitars).You do not even get the option of ordering one custom made..Then they offer us a watered down model called the adamas SMT..They take away the the distinctive carved headstock and bridge.They take away the adamas binding,they put no fretboard inlays and they take away the option of a deep bowl..OK,now the custom legend,they take away the carved bridge and trus cover,they reduce the size of the diamond shape inlays to a microscopic size,they cheapin up the rosette with a smaller inlayed rosette...Do you get my point.They take away nice features and keep the price the same or raise the price.They continue to take away the high end features and qualities while adding more and more cheper models...What have they offered lately? "The tangent"..That is(as Bill said) a peace of dog @##$%..This is the new model the guys at ovation offer us?? How about offering something new and exiting on the higher end..The collectors series are "just OK" in my view .Ovation simply finds a new exotic wood for the top every year and this is supposed to sweep us off our feet.I have played them and sorry im not impressed! They look fine but they all sound the same to me..Babbinga,lacewood ,whatever,it all sounds the same...Here is where i feel ovation has gone wrong..They should start with a guitar that has great acoustic sound first and then ad the electronics to it after they have acheaved the acoustic sound first..I agree every ovation should have elctronics but first design the guitar for acoustic sound and then ad the electronics later....And now the most important thing..The guitars that i was telling you about with the bad workmanship and waves in the tops below the bridge were "american models".Very expensive guitars..They are allowing these guitars to reach music stores in that condition.Neck problems ,bad set ups,waves in the top.That is shameful !!I hear from ovation owners all the time. Somewhere ,something has gone terribly wrong with the guitar company i love.These things cannot be overlooked any longer..Is ovation just cranking out these guitars without an eye for details?Are they just simply rushing things along the assymbly line for $$$sake? Someone has to come out and say it and it might as well be its biggest fan."ME".....Ovation ,Watch your quality and listen to your guitars!!! There are far too many quality guitar makers out there on your heels...Sam Stathakis(ovation collector) |
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Location: NJ | hey elias it brings new meaning to the slogan "plug it in" |
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Location: Philadelphia, PA 19107 | He, he, he, he, he, !!!!!!!!
That was really good Al!!!!!!!!!
Really really GOOD!!!!!! |
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Location: Philadelphia, PA 19107 | This is a follow up to Sam's comments. We have discussed these issues over and over again with Sam, and other Ovation related people. Unfortunately this is the sheer truth and the current unpleasant (to me too) reality. I have nothing more to add on all that. I completely agree with Sam. I wouldn't buy a current production Ovation. I love the old (vintage?) Ovations and Adamases. it's the construction, the sound, the glory! It's their magic! I hope things will change, I hope they'll hear us, I hope we can do and we all do something about that. |
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Location: NJ | Sam
PLEASE do not think I am picking on you I am not but there are many contradictins in your post that I need clarified.
post 1
post 2
ok so which is it? if you started collecting in 1990 then you bought new modern guitars or 30 year old unsold guitars from new vendors? you confuse me here sam.
post 1
post 2
I am sure you can see by reading your first post how it was unclear pertaining to which guitars you were talking about.
post 1
again I am confused if you bought new guitars and started in 1990 then you would not own any guitars built past 1980 yet you bough them new???
post 1
(and Bill later)ran the company,i was in tune with their thinking and i felt they designed and built guitars that were built for me.I was in line with the companys thinking and they were not only great plugged in guitar but sounded great unplugged>
post 2
OK so we now agree that all guitars should have electronics that makes sense to me but I am still confused pertaining to what constitutes a good acoustic sound to you?. what criteria are you using?
in post 2 you say
I strongly disagree sam these woods have different properties and different sounds. I am still floored over the redwood guitars they sound awesome. Iguess you did not seriously look at the 2002 it has a new preamp system and the neck i attached like the original ovations were. Innovative no but a definitive return to the roots.
so far the only thing that you complained about that directly effects the sound of the guitars is the bowl design and honestly I am not so sure on the degree that the change has made. Other changes you have complained about are cosmetics see this quote from post 2
<..Then they offer us a watered down model called the adamas SMT..They take away the the distinctive carved headstock and bridge.They take away the adamas binding,they put no fretboard inlays and they take away the option of a deep bowl..OK,now the custom legend,they take away the carved bridge and trus cover,they reduce the size of the diamond shape inlays to a microscopic size,they cheapin up the rosette with a smaller inlayed rosette...Do you get my point.They take away nice features and keep the price the same or raise the price.They continue to take away the high end features and qualities while adding more and more cheper models>
Sam all that you mention here are cosmetics and yes I agree with you some of those changes are not that great but they really have no direct impact on the overall sound of the guitar. Bracing thickness of finish wood used yes all have impact on sound but not the size of the inlays.
post 2
<
What have they offered lately? "The tangent"..That is(as Bill said) a peace of dog @##$%..This is the new model the guys at ovation offer us?? How about offering something new and exiting on the higher end..>
I believe the term is runny carpet staining dog spoo but hey I may be wrong. You are right Sam a perhaps poor judgement in a new model BUT the Adamas Q is still in the works and every time I see one in progess at the factory I can only think what the final product will be like....
Sam you are making me sound like a marketing puke and I don't even work for the company!!!! LOL
Sam
I know you are very passionate about ovations and I respect that. I am too. Remember both Miles and I started this site to promote what we love about ovation guitars. sure there are problems and we can address them and discuss them but it would help if you could be a little more complete in your critiques so we can better help evaluate and criticize. be specific so we can better analyze and contribute.
please don't take his personally once again |
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Posts: 970
Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Al, the few (2-3 )new ovations i bought were NOS guitars that i got at a bargain from local music stores and i simply turned them for a quick buck.I did not want them for myself.As i said before i would not buy any new ovation currently in the ovation line,not to keep.Im sorry,they do not inspire me..I wish they did because as i said i am a big fan of Ovations.Just not the recent offerings...When i play my 1968 Glen cambell shiny bowl or my slotted headstock Adamas model..I hear the sounds that Charlie was aiming for and acheaved...I play my adamas #33 and compare the sound to my Martin D42 and the sound is right there with it,in some ways better ..I typically dont compare ovations to other wood guitars as i know they are different.But my early ovations sounded that good that i can compare them...
Al, you dont have to defend ovations to me.If you like them then thats great.I personally have not found anything new in the ovation line that speaks to me but i will keep an open mind..
I have played the first ovation (old # 6)and i have played the most recent 2002 ovations and everything in between.I have even played the adamas Q's prototypes (two of them).I will always keep my eyes on the ovations when i go to music stores and hope to walk in one day and find a new model that captures me and i can write on this site how much i love the new ovation.I would also like to comment on how their quality has improved(wishful thinking)..I look forward to that day because i am an ovation fan.Until then i will just keep playing my old adamases,1967 Josh white model and 1968 Glen campbell model along with my Martins,Larrivees and others.... |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Many interesting points raised here
1. Family vs corp mentality. Very true, Ovation used to be family but lost it (lit and fig) The good Acoustics are family run, Collings, National Resophonic, Santa Cruz, Laravie, Taylor etc. You don't have to(fender) but you usually loose something when it's corporate run.
2. Sam, Bowl material. there is a small difference but the other variables in the guitar more than make up for it.
3. Hours per guitar. It of course varies but figure 8-10 plus or minus depending on the model
4. Imports. If I came across as against them that's not correct. They are necessary, Hell I was the one who picked the roundback factory in Korea in 82. It's just that the imports should be copies of the path you've already opened. When there is no R&D to speek of and the imports take the lead you wind up steering the boat by looking at the wake. not a good plan.
5. Plug it in. The MPs thought this up so they could differentiate Ovation from Takamine. Ovation was the Electric/acoustic and Tak was the Acoustic/electric. A total load of codswallop but there you have it. It wound up being an excuse for not making an acoustic that could really stand on its own. "plug it in, it will sound better" Now this IS a good sound but they all lost sight of the fact that ovation should be a great ACOUSTIC guitar that works great plugged in.
6. I'd be happy to sign lables. Send them to sunny Fla. |
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Posts: 10581
Location: NJ | In an effort to try to reel this post in before it gets totally lost in the storm.
1. I think we all can agree that the supershallow bowl guitars were desigened as electrics and not acoustics.
some time in the eighties and then the nineties gibson acoustics became real popular with some recording engineers why because of the same reason every one hated them for years they sounded dull and flat and if put in front of a mic you can mess with the sound a lot more than a martin or guild that booms acoustically. from that point guitar makers made guitars that are less responsive acoustically. although I get called on it all the time to my ears taylors are very generic and even sounding no guts but that is what appeals to today;s user but not to me.
2. family operated businesses usually have a more homey feel and are easier to relate to than big corporations
Sure but I know some families that are a real mess and their business reflects that. If you call me you get me or my wife if your item comes to you damaged it is because I did not pack it right. get me in the right mood I will talk to you for an hour on the phone write me a 3 page e mail you may get a 3 word answer... there are limitations and advantages I think the most important part is to have guitar people making the decisions for a guitar company. sometimes you just have to take risks.
3. r & D is important and vital to your product line.
if you depend on the tried and true designs of the past then your product can become tired and out of favor. I think part of the reason why you see so many taks out there is not solely because they sound good amplified but because they look like a guitar and don;t have the ovation stigma. I do not remember seeing one ovation on the mtv unplugged series althugh I saw every other brand known to man and some that I did not even know had acoustic guitars in their line.
for years Martins came with high action and heavy strings from the factory because that is the way theeir customers in the old days wanted them. so dealers would get new guitars recut the nut and put lighter strings on them and sell the guitas. sometimes doing things because of tradition is not end user friendly
4. the flagship line or high end guitars should have the ornamentation that those guitars deserve.
Apparently we posters here like ornamentation. inlays carved headstocks bridges etc. I have a d 35 but it is no way as attractive as a d 45 although it sounds wonderful. something about guitarists that like that glitz and glamour
5. the consumer should have a voice in the products
well this is achieved by market share and units sold. Sure many people that buy a celebrity wlll go on and buy a usa ovation at some point. Others may be turned off it all depends on the individual. This is the forum to voice your opinion this is the place to give your ideas and criticisms. but if it degenerates into a "fill in the brand name sucks" or " fill in the brand name rules" then the whole process is degenerative I despise blanket statements with no validation. If you make a statement back it up with facts or explain it to the best of your abilities. if you say a guitar " does not speak to you" then al the musician poet songwriter can relate. but al the technician has no clue what that means and needs some hard facts to make sense.
I am sure Bloomfield is watching us taking notes and wanting to gag some of us.
6. there needs to be more of a distinction between the imports and usa product lines.
when I was at the factory last fall for the Hamer fan club festivities Frank Untermeyer took us through the ovation factory and talked about a return to craftsmanship and making the USA line more distinctive. A new preamp is in the works thinner finishes different neck attachmnt system etc. well only time will tell till we see some of this trickle down to the stores.
just a point of clarificatin about myself. I am first a musician (no matter how awful my guitar playing may be)/songwriter/author then I am a collector and I am also an instrument vendor. As a result I often look at things from different points of view. Miles seems real good at distinguihing which is which I am not always that good think of me as the message board's equivalent to sybil.
Ultimately I think if elias keeps posting pics of hot bims with ovtion guitars we may all loose focus!!! |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Who needs focus? Keep'em coming Elias! |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Al, im very sure that the guys at the factory would like to gag some of us("ME") on the site.But maybe the truth hurts sometimes.Maybe someone has to say things and open a dialogue about the guitars.In the long run this may help the ovation guitar company!!I dont think im being unreasonable in writting and asking ovation not to send guitars to music stores with problems such as waves in the tops below the bridge.Im not imagining this problem.It exists and the factory knows it and many customers know it.I have been checking their high end american guitars for this problem for over two years now.I also dont think its unreasonable to ask for high end American models with better ornamentation available and more importantly high end acoustic/electric models that have great acoustic unplugged sound..I think Bill said it best that they should design a great sounding acoustic guitar that also has electronics on it....Im not saying to go back to building early models like the Glen Campbell or Josh white or even the original adamases but dont continue to take away features,ornamentation and unplugged acoustic sound and expect us to like it...Is that asking too much? |
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Location: NJ | the answer is NO that is not asking or too much
but Sam I have to admit did you even read my post? I agreed with you on every point.
my only criticism is you keep saying the guitars sound bad but give no other reason than the bowl changed in 1980. EXPLAIN why you feel the guitars are not good acoustically the current mid to deep depth bowl we agree the supershallow were meant to be electric.
the top wood does not matter arguement is invalid I am sure luthiers and musicians will argue that point to their death that it does matter and have been making that point for thousands of years.
You say you know they are not going to make the old models and should not be expected to. OK then we are in agreeement BUT HOW what steps will the factory have to take to make the guitars sound better to YOU. aside from cosmetic issues and wavy tops you have yet to give them any guidance as to what you feel is wrong and why the guitars do not speak to you.
I really feel like I am beating a dead horse here and wish elias would post more pics.
[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: alpep ] |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Al, the only explanation i need to give to you or ovation about their guitars is that in my view and with my two ears their guitars do not sound good acoustically like they used to.You, by your own admission told us in another post how some lady was coming to your home to buy a newer adamas and when she played an earlier adamas II you had laying around she bought the adamas II.You went on the say that there was a huge difference in the sound.So,if the adamas is the top of the line ovation and they simply do not sound as good as they used to.Then we have a problem because there are a lot of guitar makers fighting for the high end guitar dollar....Al, its not my job to analize and explain why the current ovations do not sound good.Its Ovations job!! All i can do as a consumer is listen to the sound of the instrument. All i know is what my ear is telling me and it tells me there is something missing.Acoustically these guitars are dead sounding.I feel its the
"plug it in" mentality.As i said before i have an early adamas that sounds as good if not better than my Martin D42 acoustically.Doubt you can make that comparison today with a CVT or a SMT..
So, as far as my explaining why they sound bad or giving Ovation guidance,i say its not my job...Im sure there are many high payed suites at ovation who should do this..Dont expect me the end user the consumer to design the guitars for them.Im not a luthier im a guy who wants to buy these guitars.I suspect the problem and i dont know this for a fact is that the guys running the show at ovation are probably marketing guys who probably dont have much passion for guitars or even know much about guitars...Its all about selling product....Maybe im wrong ?? Anyway,the bottom line is that i like ovations a want to see them succeed.I would like to buy more of their guitars in the future.Its up to them!!! (hey,how about a SAMOVA model,he,he,he)..... |
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Location: Scotland | Somebody once said that talking about sound is like dancing about architecture. I have a 1978 Adamas, I also have a recent SMT. I love both, but I prefer the sound of the SMT, both acoustically & amplified. One man's meat etc. The SMT is for me, a far superior & practical stage guitar and which still cuts the mustard unplugged. Both guitars get used in state of the art analogue & digital recording studios on a regular basis at the University & college where I teach. I also use them in my own (very well equipped & acoustically treated) 24 track digital studio. I have been involved in pro-audio for 20-odd years, I have a very experienced ear which I take great care of with specialist hearing protection. I have the opportunity to play these guitars & others in acoustically neutral rooms & through studio monitors that cost more than the last new car I bought. My ears tell me something different to yours Sam, maybe mine aren't rose-coloured.
Paul |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Paul, glad you enjoy your SMT...Your just the guy Ovation is looking for..... |
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Location: NJ | I do not want to come off as an ogre or a company puke.
All I wanted to do was elicit a response other than the "guitar sounds bad"
If Bloomfield is watching, I would like them to listen to our critiques in layman or luthier terms, take them seriously and act on them.
[ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: alpep ] |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Al, and i dont want to come off as some ovation hating guy either.I love the ovation guitars and have over 50.I actually like the weavetop adamas somewhat.I dont know know that i would buy one but its a nice enough guitar..As far as why i dont like the sound,im not a luthier so i cannot break down where the acoustic sound problem is but as i said they do not sound exceptional unplugged and i would like to see ovations sound exceptional..I have been fighting the roundback ,fibeglass back battle for years with the wood guitar guys out there.I have defended ovation and told the Gibson,martin,Taylor boys that they should listen to my early adamases or Glen campbell model.So, i have been in the ovation camp probably longer than some ovation management.I have been fighting the good fight...Maybe this is why i expect more from ovation on the high end line.Maybe this is why i have been tough on the newer product line.I want Better quality and better unplugged sound.I think i have a good experienced ear and simply want ovations to be a guitar i can brag about again..There is no question about the plugged in sound.They compete with any guitar maker out there.So, i think we agree more than we dissagree here.I also would love to speak with management at ovation and discuss possible guitar ideas,etc..Throw some things around and open a dialogue with its loyal fans.Maybe something good can come out of it?My e-mail is Samova@aol.com |
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Posts: 15654
Location: SoCal | This is my first post here and hopefully not my last. There seems to be a discussion about older Ovations v. newer Ovations, and per Sam, the fact that the material in the back was changed in the early '80's, possibly a factor in the sound difference.
I've played Ovations for almost 30 years (makes me sound old, but I got my first one at age 17). Currently, I own an 83 Elite, an 83 Country Artist, and a 93 Adamas 12 ("Big Blue"). I've played the Elite and Adamas against most other guitars and they hold they're own.
Now to the debate. I've also got a 77 Legend. Beautiful guitar, hangs on the wall of my office. I wooed my wife with that guitar. Sounds like shit. I've got a good friend in Kansas City who also plays an Ovation. He too said that the material of the older bowls sounds better. Until he heard my Elite. Now he plays a 10 year old Elite (with the newer material).
I personally don't think the older guitars sound better. I think the newer A bracing makes the differnce. And if Ovations of today don't sound as good as my guitars, I'd chaulk it up to cheaper materials. My Elite (from the first year made) is first class across the board. Elites today are cheaper in the soundboard and the neck.
I guess my viewpoint is that there was a golden age of Ovations that ended in the early 90's. Or maybe I don't have a viewpoint...... |
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Location: Scotland | The point here is that there are a huge number of variables which contibute to the response & tonal quality of a musical instrument. Making sweeping statements about minor construction details, old versus new, or quoting personal opinions about something as subjective as guitar tone, as if they were quantifiable facts, does not stand up.
I've played great & not so great guitars from every era of the company and that statement applies equally to instruments from companies like Martin, Gibson Guild, Taylor, et al
Paul
[ March 11, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
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Posts: 119
Location: Philadelphia, PA 19107 | Elias' Epilogue!
Guys please, FOCUS!!!!
There is nothing sexier than chics with Ovations.
But please: Don't loose it. Focus!
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Posts: 10581
Location: NJ | Ovations ladies latex and leather perfect together |
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Location: SoCal | With pictures like these, I'm starting to wonder if I'm too young for this website. Whip me beat me make me write bad checks!
My next post will be about guitars. |
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Posts: 33
Location: montreal | my only complaint with my acoustic is that the strings seem to go dead very fast. I put on new strings play the guitar 6-7 times and my strings lose that crisp sound. I've tried all kinds of strings and nothing changed. My beef with ovation, is their lack of vision. They have had very, very few new ideas introduced into thier lines in the last 10 years. All their acoustics look the same minus some small difference (yes, I know, US models are better than korean ones). I thought it was amazing when they put out the vipers a few years back, now the tangents, but they look the same as all the rest of thier stuff, minus the new headstock and the shiny metalic black finish. They NEED to go out on a limb with somthing, make some solid bodies, not many just 2 models at first, but they have to be of TOP QUALITY or they will flop! I am just dying to see somthing new from them, every year I go the official website hoping to see somthing new that catches my eye, but their models look the same year after year, so why the hell would I be interested in that?!?! But what do I know, they are the experts on what we like right?
[ March 12, 2002: Message edited by: s_mkheidze ] |
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Location: SoCal | Try Elixers, with the polycoating. They last forever. |
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December 2001
Posts: 10581
Location: NJ | Leo Fender was neither a luthier nor a musician. He took the the advice of artists and musicians and transferred them into his knowledge of mechanics and technology. As a result he designed some of the most respected and copied guitars of the modern electric guitar era.
You need not be a luthier to express yourself but put into words how you feel. Eric Pritchard who designed the PRS amps told me Carlos Santana told him he thought his amps sounded like white wine and he wanted an amp that sounds like red wine. Eric took that thought and transferred it into engineering terms and redesigned his amps. |
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Would would you like to see playing ovation guitars???