|
|
Joined:
March 2007
Posts: 841
Location: CA | I don't completely understand what intonation is, but I know it's important. I know that compensated saddles in the bridge (where one or more strings are set back or forward from the others) is part of achieving ideal intonation. (Right?) But why do some saddles, on the same make of guitars, have different offsets? Seems to me if you were making Ovations, which all have basically the same string length, why wouldn't the compensation be the same on all of them? And can one model (such as Legends) have different saddles. On high end guitars, would they 'test' each individual guitar for the right compensation?
I recently bought a CV68 with a bad pre-amp. The saddle (pickup) was straight across (uncompensated? not compensated?). I found a complete replacement setup (pre-amp, battery box, pickup, jack) on eBay, supposedly for THIS guitar (and/or EA 68). The saddle in this unused factory kit had an offset in the saddle for just the B string. What's up with that? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
September 2006
Posts: 10777
Location: Keepin' It Weird in Portland, OR | Good Question Oddball... I really wish someone would answer it cuz I wanna know too.   |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | OK, to achive a specific pitch with a string there are 3 requirements: Tension, mass and scale length. On a guitar the only time all 3 factors are correct is when an open string is played. Fretting a note changes the string length, and also slightly affects tension wile the mass remains constant. Saddle compensation goes some way to correcting the innacurracies caused by this. All steel-string guitars have compensated saddles. The fact that the saddle is slanted is the basic compensation. The B string usually needs a little more compensation, and some manufacturers compensate the 2nd string. Any further compensation is beyond the scope of a standard width saddle. Ovation have used Thinline pickups with and without the 2nd string comp. The wide Ovation pickup has compensation for each string. But, any of this this compensation is a compromise, as it does not take into account the users preference for string guage and action, both of which affect the string mass and tension. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2007
Posts: 2711
Location: Vernon CT | Mr Templeman should be MR "O"cyclepedia!
What don't you know!?? :) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2004
Posts: 1634
Location: Warren,Pa. | When Temp gives an answer to a technical question...it's the best moment in my day.
...well, sometimes not.
John <>{ |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | y'just have to learn to TIME your questions between the second & third bottles of red . . .
. . . after the third bottle, he has a penchannt for getting a bit pissy . . . |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | Originally posted by cliff:
y'just have to learn to TIME your questions between the second & third bottles of red . . .
. . . after the third bottle, he has a penchannt for getting a bit pissy . . . That should read "penchant", not "penchannt".....
282..... Remember |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | cream cheese from th'bagel must've made the key stick . . .
. . . oh, and btw, go f@ck yerself . . . |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3612
Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | So, why is it impractical to make an acoustic bridge, with adjustable saddles?
They're on electrics, right?
Perhaps the contact with the top is an issue, but if there is a zero-friction arrangement, under the saddle "foot", it shouldn't be a problem.
Hey, Wizards- youse guys in Connecticut- How's-'bout-it?! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3612
Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Actually, Stew-Mac makes a gizmo to determine intonation, when you're determining bridge placement. It's just that it is a temporary fixture, though. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3612
Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Sorry, saddle placement. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 5563
Location: Blue Ridge Mountains | But, any of this this compensation is a compromise, as it does not take into account the users preference for string guage and action, both of which affect the string mass and tension. Paul is right on here. For example: I prefer med-lt. gauge strings...however on the '48 D-28, the original strings gauge was Medium. Now, one might think that would not make much of a difference, but it does. To correct the intonation problem w/ the G (3rd) string, I had to use one from a medium set. Now it plays in perfent tune...I may eventually go back to Med. sets...there is power and tone in the bigger strings as long as the guitar is stout enough to handle the extra tension...
Thanks Paul for your spot on explaination! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Gibson put their "tunamatic" bridge on a bunch of acoustics in the 60's. Basically the routed a wide slot in the bridge and dropped the top part of a Les Paul bridge in there. Improved intonation but that huge hunk of engineering sounded like crap. There's been several other attempts, but in reality it's not a big deal. For most players the standard acoustic saddle works and provides intonation that is close enough for most ears. The split saddle used by Takamine, Lowden and a few others is good, and some luthiers make an extra-wide bone saddle which is compensated for a specific string gauge and action, but I'd guess to develop a fully adjustable acoustic saddle, that could accomodate an undersaddle pickup, and not screw up tone, would be a huge R&D job, not worth the return. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2006
Posts: 6268
Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by cliff:
a bit pissy . . .
you pot...kettle  |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 194
Location: Las Vegas, NV | Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
OK, to achive a specific pitch with a string there are 3 requirements: Tension, mass and scale length. On a guitar the only time all 3 factors are correct is when an open string is played. Fretting a note changes the string length, and also slightly affects tension wile the mass remains constant. Paul, I'm trying to wrap my mind around this, so please help clarify any way you can. When you fret, aren't you also changing the mass of the vibrating portion of the string? For an open string, you are vibrating the mass of the string from nut to saddle. If you fret at the 12th fret, you're vibrating half the mass of the string, right? I'm sure tension doesn't double, but is increased somewhat (probably not linearly).
Any further insight or clarification would be great.
Brian |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Fretting a note shortens the string length. Pushing a string against a fret causes a slight increase in tension the amount of which depends on action height and fret position. But, the mass, which really means the thickness of the string, remains constant. Regardles of the vibrating length the mass only changes if you change the string gauge. This is basically why we have different string guages for different piches on a given scale length. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Originally posted by MusicMishka:
there is power and tone in the bigger strings I find a little more volume on the amp pretty much accomplishes the same thing. :D |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 194
Location: Las Vegas, NV | Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
Fretting a note shortens the string length. Pushing a string against a fret causes a slight increase in tension the amount of which depends on action height and fret position. But, the mass, which really means the thickness of the string, remains constant. Regardles of the vibrating length the mass only changes if you change the string gauge. This is basically why we have different string guages for different piches on a given scale length. That makes sense. We're talking about linear mass (or mass per unit length), not total mass. Got it.
Thanks,
Brian |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7222
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Also a factor in all of this is that one of the primary functions of the bridge is to transfer the vibration of the strings to the top. When a string passes over the bone, that vibration is being transferred to the top in varying degrees by the entire piece of bone. While splitting the bone may technically help intonation, you've lost sustain and tone. That's pretty much what happened with the Gibson experiment. A perfectly tuned guitar that sounded like crap.
I have wondered why no one (that I know of) hasn't come up with a fixed bridge, that was molded to adjust for intonation of different gauge strings. It probably would not make a big difference, but it sure would be a neat marketing gimmick. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2008
Posts: 194
Location: Las Vegas, NV | Originally posted by Mr. Ovation:
I have wondered why no one (that I know of) hasn't come up with a fixed bridge, that was molded to adjust for intonation of different gauge strings. It probably would not make a big difference, but it sure would be a neat marketing gimmick. Probably not practical, since every brand/type/gauge of string would have slight differences. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4044
Location: Utah | There are some intonation fixes on the market that are aimed at the nut. From a practical standpoint, we notice poor intonation more in the first 3 to 5 frets than we do further up the neck. Or, to put it another way, the compromises (and sometimes poor manufacturing tolerances) of placing frets seems to create more problems in the first few frets when a guitar is accurately tuned with open strings.
If you really want to tweak your intonation, you can get a shelf nut, such as offered by Earvana or other places. Some sources will custom cut the nut for your particular guitar and strings of choice.
My experience with Ovations is that the intonation is pretty darned good right out of the box. IMO it is good enough for all practical purposes. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2005
Posts: 12755
Location: Boise, Idaho | Hope you guitar geeks have this sorted out by the time I get back from lunch. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
April 2008
Posts: 288
Location: New Hampshire, USA | Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
The B string usually needs a little more compensation, and some manufacturers compensate the 2nd string. Question: Is this because of the mass difference between a wound G-string and the wire B string?
I kind of assumed that, though I didn't know for sure. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | Don't you love it when someone else steps in and answers the question so you don't have to?
Way to go Paul. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2004
Posts: 2487
| Seems to be much more important on an electric guitar anyway. For my limited knowledge and experience an acoustic seem to blend the differences and slightly off key notes better. And electric is often used above the 12th fret and bad intonation is more noticable above this Half Way spot along the lenght of the string. If your playing a lead on an electric... bad intonation shows up pretty quickly. If I am wrong I am sure I will be corrected shorty. |
|
| |
Intonation, compensation