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Location: Phoenix AZ | Ignoring for the moment the shiny bowls and the colored bowls of the Contempory Folk, is there any collelation between the bowl color and the model and year? I have seen brown bowls and black bowls.
Dave |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | The black bowls had chrome hardware and the brown had gold. This was started around the early 70's I think. |
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Location: NJ | I thought the brown was only on adamas models did it appear on others? |
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Location: SoCal | Al:
My late 70's Legend has a brown bowl. And I just saw a mid 80's Custom Legend super shallow bowl on eBay with a brown bowl. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Yup - I think you're right. Chrome hardware gets black bowl, gold hardware gets brown bowl. The exception would be black finish tops always get black bowls. But at some point the brown bowl disappeared completely, right? I'm almost positive that recent gold hardware models got only black bowls. |
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Location: NJ | Now that I think about it I have seen some other brown bowls but I mostly associate them with the Adamas. I don't think that brown has been an option for years.
"brown bowls don't make it" |
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Location: Back in the Valley of the Sun Mesa Az. | My 81 Legend has a brown bowl.
Norse(just had to get my 2 cents worth in)man1
p.s.What do you guys think of the post on CS257 for $299.00? I'm debating on either getting a pick-up for my Legend, or saving my milk money and getting an acoustic/electric perhaps later this summer. The Celebrity Deluxe LOOKS real nice. How does it sound plugged/unplugged? I would guess with it's shallow bowl, it will not have the resonance of my deep bowl Legend.
Any thoughts? |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Norseman - I used to have a 257 and was not impressed. The laminated top, cutaway, and multi-sound holes just "choke" it. You can get the same sound by putting a wool sweater inside of your Legend (ha ha). If all you want is a plugged guitar to play out, it's probably not bad, especially for that price. Although for the same or less money you could put a top of the line Fishman in your Legend (I have done this) and then you have be best of both worlds. Dave |
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Location: NJ | "brown bowls don't make it"
- Al "obscure Zappa songs" Pepiak |
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Location: Back in the Valley of the Sun Mesa Az. | Thanks for the input standingovation! Tell me about the Fishmen. The last time I used a pick-up was back in the late seventies. I had a Marcus-Berry that with a glob of putty, or chewing gum off the bottom of your shoe, would stick on just below the bridge (or wherever you want ed I guess). I graduated to a Lawerence soundhole unit. Neither were that impressive, but served their purpose. I currently have no pick-up, and am thinking about possibly getting one. Of course, since we quit playing in public (which made a lot of people happy), my partner and I sold off all our amps and sound system eons ago.
Norse(getting back into the swing of things in my old age)man1 |
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Location: NJ | barcus berry
"I am the slime on the message board" |
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Location: Back in the Valley of the Sun Mesa Az. | Your right Al! My wife was right, the memory is the SECOND thing to go!
Norse(Marcus/Barcus, I suppose it will all sound the same, when I play it through my stereo system!)man1 |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Norse,
Things have gotten MUCH better since your experience with the BB pickup. The Fishman is very good. The actual pickup (the sensor) is a thin strip that mounts UNDER your saddle (the white strip that hold the strings up from your bridge). When installed it is completely hidden from view. Now here is the trick (or you may want a guitar shop to do it for you) - you need to drill a very small hole under your saddle, through the bridge, and through the top of the guitar (yikes!), but again, it's completely hidden under the saddle. The second trick is that you have to shave down the saddle to compensate for the thickness of the pickup strip that is under it. If you have shims under your saddle you may be lucky and the thickness of the shims is equal to the thickness of the pickup - so just remove the shims. Shaving the saddle to get the correct action is something you may want the guitar shop to do. The pickup has a small wire that goes through this hole and to a jack. Tricky part - you need to do a little bit of soldering to connect the wires to the jack (oh boy). The jack is integrated into the starp button, so you remove your strap button. But the screw hole for the button will have to be enlarged slightly (yikes, again!). This all sounds pretty nasty - drill through your bridge and guitar top, shave down your saddle, solder, drill a larger strap button hole in your bowl. But it's really pretty mild. I think a good guitar shop would do it for about $50. The nice thing is that your guitar still looks acoustic (no buttons, knobs, LEDs, etc.) and the inside is not all clogged up with electronics, batteries, etc. Definately keeps the acoustic sound intact. The downside is that the Pre-Amp is a seperate box that you plug into between your guitar and the sound board or amp. On Ovation AE's the PA is built into the guitar (that's why they are so heavy). The PA has volume, EQ, etc. on it and can run on batteries, A/C, or phantom power from your board. Roughly speaking the Pickup is about $75, the PA is about $100, and then maybe another $50 for install if you do not want to do it yourself. I installed one in an old AE Country Artist. The existing Ovation electronics were shot, so I just gutted it and installed the Fishman. Because this guitar already had Ovation electronics in it, there was an existing hole for the pickup wire through the bridge. In addition, I mounted the jack using the existing Ovation jack-hole in the bowl insted of going through the strap button. Here was the bonus - because I removed all the stuff (PA and battery) that was originally stuck onto the inside of the bowl, I swear the acoustic sound was improved as well! Dave
Here's the link to Fishman
http://www.fishman.com
PS - Don't get me wrong, I like Ovations electronics just fine and own more than a few Ovations with all vintages of pickups and Preamps. It's just that putting a Fishman into your Legend gives you the satisfaction of playing out with your MAIN guitar. It would be interesting to see what Ovation would charge you to install their own electronics in it. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Al,
"and the doggie wee wee has blinded me, temporarily"
To the original point, the brown bowls did go away at some point, forget when.
The Fishbreath pickups are good, very good. Much better that the Billy Lorenzo and Mucus Burbury. |
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Location: NJ | I really like the lace sensor sound hole pickup. |
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Location: Back in the Valley of the Sun Mesa Az. | Wow, that Fishman sounds like a lot of hassle, but probably worth it! Me, I'm a lazy kinda guy, I like the idea of a soundhole pick-up if it will sound good. The majority of my playing is unplugged, to unwind and relax. I do however like to record once in a while, when I write something new, or just feel like it when the fish aren't biting.
I see Victor Lutz has Dean Markley Pro MAg pick-ups for $39.00 (also has guitar stands for 5.00!). Sounds like a pretty good deal (you know, quick and easy). Any comments on their sound? I did read the link on pick-ups posted a while ago, and I think Al mentioned that he liked the Markley.
Norse(I must sound like a dinosaur, so behind in tech. BUT totally up to date on how good for the soul guitars are)man1 |
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Location: NJ | Has anybody tried/used a Highlander? |
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Location: NJ | "hey now brothers who you jivin with that cosmic debris??????"
[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: alpep ] |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Back to the brown bowl,i think there was no rhyme or reason as to what models got those bowls.I have guitars with chrome hardware and brown bowls and i have a Deluxe anniversary and custom legend model with brown bowls..It seems that they appeared around 1980 and were phased out around 1986 -87.....Bill?
I will say this about the brown bowls ,they were softer and you could take your thumb and very easily press the bowl in.It seems that the black bowls were thicker and harder to push in with your thumb.... |
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Location: Scotland | Cliff, Highlanders & the like work fine, but they use a farly Standard Piezo cable used in earthquake & vibration testing. It can be bought from specialist electronics suppliers for a few dollars, & a similar pickup can be homemade easily if you can be bothered. Thier preamps are very good though. Highlander make a unique magnetic pickup especially for tricone resonators which is spectactular.
The key to installing a saddle transducer is to get rid of any shims. The saddle slot needs to be routed to the correct depth & a saddle of the correct height made. The bottom of the saddle slot & the saddle must be absolutely flat or it will cause string to string imbalance. I've installed a few pickups using Fishmans "Fishbone" saddles & they work great.
IMO the best magnetic pickups are the Sunrise (In fact the Sunrise is the best, bar none) followed by the Mimesis, originally made by Mike Vanden in Scotland, now licensed to Fishman and marketed as the Rare Earth. A Sunrise will cost a couple of hundred & is worth every penny, & Vanden/Fishman about $140
Paul
[ June 11, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada | I had a '78 or '79 Legend with a brown bowl.
Wayne |
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Location: Bham,AL | I've got an '81 1117 with a deep brown bowl with gold hardware and have a Fishman Rare Earth Blend sound hole p/u, mounted that I am really happy with. Fishman makes several models of these, one with an internal mike that would probably be worth the time mounting and listening to. They just have cushioned clamps that attach to the rim of the sound hole. No muss, no fuss. They are a little more money but are well worth it.
Bukwheat
'47 Gibson A4 Mandolin
'81 Ovation 1117
'94 Gibson Chet Atkins ARCES
'99 Gibson LP
'01 Taylor 355ce LTD 12 string |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Sam,
The logic for the brown bowl/black bowl was chrome-black and gold-brown as I stated before. The exception was black tops always had black bowls. Usually this was just paint. For a while there were two colors of SMC but there really is no difference in the hardness of the bowls. There is more variation from one to another than from one color to the other, and yes there is a variation form one to another.
The Anniversary guitar started this by having a cordovan (reddish/brown) color bowl. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Al,
when is the
"Saint Alphonso's pancake breakfast" ? |
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Location: Back in the Valley of the Sun Mesa Az. | Hey Bukwheat, as everyone else on this board has grown tired of, but can attest to, I am the proud new owner of an 81 1117 Legend! Great sounding guitar! I'm thinking of putting a Dean Markley Pro Mag soundhole pick-up on it. I'm hoping it will do the trick. I've even considered the Markley putty on transducer, so I could use it on any of my acoustical toys. But after remembering what my Barcus (thanks Al)-Berry sounded like, I think not.
Tell me about your legend. Does it sound Great or what?!
Norse(did I mention I have an 81 Legend?)man1 |
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Location: NJ | cwk2
"call any vegetable" |
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Location: Bham,AL | Norseman1, I am not familiar with the Markely Pro Mag. I have a Markely but not sure if it was a Pro Mag. I put it on my 1117 and was not impressed, thus the Fishman Rare Earth acquisition. Be sure and check out the Fishman, they are awesome and it added a new whole dimension to the 1117. What color is your 1117? Mine is what they called the Tobacco Sunburst. I bought it new and have enjoyed it from day one.
bukwheat |
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Location: Back in the Valley of the Sun Mesa Az. | Hey Bukwheat! My Legend is a natural spruce top. I love it! I've seen Balladeers with the Sunburst like you have, and they are very nice.
Do you have a link to theis Fishman site? does it involve drilling holes and the such?
Norse(thanks for the info)man1
p.s. Hey Al, today I'm a potatoe (with an "e" like Dan Quayle says) |
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Location: Back in the Valley of the Sun Mesa Az. | Hey Bukwheat,
I just went to the Fishman website. They have a soundhole pick-up as such;
Understated good looks and sparkling full range sound reveal the Neo-D as a direct descendent of Fishman's acclaimed Rare Earth soundhole pickup. In fact, the single coil Neo-D shares the same neodymium magnets and coil technology as the best-selling Rare Earth pickup, except it's passive.
Is this the style of pick-up you have refered to (soundhole) or the permanently mounted style mentioned in a previous post by Paul? I like the soundhole idea!
Norse(any idea of price range, nothing noted at the Fishman website)man1 |
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Location: Bham,AL | Norseman1
There is a link to Fishman on the first page of this post, about midpage,http://www.fishman.com.
The only hole to be drilled is cord input, either in the endpin or the back. Real clean application.
The pickup is very even in its tonal pickup qualities.
I paid $160(alabama dollars)for mine at Mars Music. Worth every penny!
bukwheat |
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Location: Scotland | The Fishman Rare Earth is a licensed version of Scottish luthier Mike Vanden's Mimesis pickup. They come in various formats, single coil & humbucker, & with a mike. A new version includes a miniature AKG condenser on a mini gooseneck OUTSIDE the guitar, which is a much better idea than an internal mike. These pickups aren't particularly cheap, but in my experience are the best sounding magnetics, with the exception of the Sunrise. I would recommend you go with the original active Rare Earth rather than the new passive version. They involve no modification other than instalation of of an output or endpin jack. I have a Mimesis active single coil on my '72 Legend which I use for slide.
[ June 12, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | AL
"Call it by name" |
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Location: NJ | cwk2
"call one today when you get off the train" |
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Location: St Louis | I have an american made Ultra with a brown bowl. |
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Location: California | Hey Norse(thoughtyoumighthavegoneintohibernationtobereadyforthoseMinn.winters)man1,
If you recall I bought a left 1117-4 awhile back. Deep black bowl. Needs new frets, no pickup, cracks in top. Based on previously posted comments about how good the factory service is I called them up. Spoke to a gentleman named John Brudny. He was very nice and sounded like he knew his business. He stated that they could perform the following work for me at the following prices:
1. New frets/sand fingerboard/set up neck - $200
2. OP-24+C preamp w/TruBalance pick up - $250
3. Brace top/repair cracks and refinish top - $300
He mentioned something about the OP-24+C as going well in lefty models. I also like having the battery accessible from the outside.
Until he actually sees the guitar he can't tell if he can refinish the top (with clear spray) without effecting the aged pumpkin color of the top. He will be calling me with his best recommendation. The $300 was a guestimate on his part based on other tops he has repaired.
He said it would take 4 - 6 weeks to complete the work.
So am I out of my mind to spend twice what the instrument is worth to bring it up to snuff? Probably. But when you are a lefty it is hard to find fine guitars.
If anyone has a better idea I'm listening.
Anyway, I thought I would mention that you also have the option of having the factory install an up to date preamp/pickup in your 1117.
$400 for the guitar
$750 for the repairs and electronics
$ 50 for shipping
$1,200 and it will be good to go for another 25 years. I can't think of a lefty acoustic in that price range that I would rather have.
If nothing else I will have them redo the neck.
I will let you know how it all turns out. |
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Bowl Color vs Model / Year