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Location: Scotland | I just noticed that some piece of shit, plywood, plastic, MOTS, toytown electronics, "Diodati" or whatever, Ovation rip-off (looks like it was made in whatever sweatshop builds the UK Crafters &/or Tanglewoods) just took 43 bids and closed at over 350 bucks on ebay. How come some decent vintage USA Ovations like Custom Baladeers, Country Artists and the like, which are infinitely superior instruments don't come close? What do we know that people who will bid $350+ on Korean crap don't? You can get a mid 70's cased USA Ovation for the same money or less, are these people mental?!!!!!!!
[ June 30, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] | |
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Location: Pensacola,FL | Paul
It's called "mindless frenzy" when there are that many bids on eBay. They don't care what they are getting, just so they "outbid" the other guy
is what seems to count. I've seen stuff sell for 3 times its RETAIL cost on eBay when this "frenzy" happens. Who knows what lurks in the mind of some bidders :rolleyes: | |
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Location: Scotland | OLG, I'm a very active ebay seller, so I'm aware of bidder frenzy, and I think you are mostly correct, but hey, late 70's Electro Artist with case, no bids, Korean excuse for a bread bin $350 just seems crazy. I wish I wasn't in the UK so I could grab some of these serious bargains over your way.
Paul | |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Paul
Imitation is the best form of flattery, or some such dicho.
However, visualize the situation where the poor sucker who bought this POS contacts this board with the usual question, "What is this POS worth?"
Revenge is sweet
Revenge is mine, saith the Lord
Two more dichos.
Bailey :rolleyes: | |
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Location: NJ | AS a person who has owned and sold many Ovations it is very troubling to me. As we have said over and over on this board the blurred line between imports and USA makes the uneducated consumer confused.
Many people also think that if they buy an old guitar they get just that an old guitar. Kids and some adults have to have New stuff. I really don;t understand that mentality but it is out there.
It has always been my contention that the strength of the new product line can be determined by the resale of the used product. but I did not study economics I know little to nothing about marketing and am probably overall incompetent. | |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Al you reminded me of a good point about "buy new" vs "just an old guitar." I think it comes down to the overall (not just in music) level of workmanship vs new with Warrantee. I have recently had experience with NEW "hand crafted" made in the USA items that had to be returned more than once to "get it right." A friend of mine just started construction on a 500K+ house and they poured the foundation wrong... I'm sure we all have storys about craftsmanship not being what it used to be... But we remember and witnessed "what it used to be"... Parents today (and kids of course), only have experiences like I mentioned above. Old and handcrafted, coupled with a reasonable price can only translate to one thing... "it's obviously broken, at least this new cheap one has a warantee if it doesn't work" | |
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Location: UK | Hey, dont Knock Crafter, i got one :eek:
It was bought from a catalog bout 2 years ago when i was skint at the time, and was sick of playing my only other guitar a Fender 12, it saw me out until i got two of the real mccoys, still got it in a corner somewhere, the cat sort of uses it as a bed or summat (or a cat litter) not sure which, aint picked it up fer a while, sort of sounds crap now ive seen the light, cost me 200 quid which is about 300 Dollars :mad: | |
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Location: Orlando, Florida | Come on guys, don't you think you're being a little narrow minded and unfair? Has anyone of you ever played a "Diodati"? I've tracked a couple of these on eBay, and they seem to go for around that $350. mark. In my opinion, looking at the pictures, this guy had a great start to a very unusual jazz box with that tail piece, but fell short with the bridge. If he had used a floating, adjustable bridge, with a compensating saddle, he could have had a great alternative to the traditional f-hole archtop. But getting back to everyone's opinion, I'm sure you probably realize that those who play and collect high end Gibsons, Martins and Taylors look down at Ovations as guitars that are "plywood, plastic, MOTS, toytown electronics". So if anything, we should not judge a guitar just because this gentleman, in his ad, said some negative things about Ovation, a company that obviously inspired him.
jyam4 | |
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Location: Scotland | The instrument I was referring to was a flat-top round-hole, round-back without a tailpiece. I've played plenty comparable instruments & they're OK for the dough, if you like that kind of thing. My point was that's it's possible to buy a far superior USA "vintage" Ovation guitar for the same money.
Paul
[ July 02, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] | |
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Location: Orlando, Florida | Sorry, I thought you were refering to the one, from the same dealer, with the Adamas style top and jazz type tailpiece.
jyam4 | |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Al & Miles
I'd like to comment on "old versus new" and the economics of musical instruments as I've observed it over the years.
There are four categories of customers for a musical instrument in my opinion.
1st. The star player with talent and renown, and they will get the best in quality and service from a manufacturer. There are very few of these and I'm sure they don't contribute to the volume of sales themselves, but their endorsement sells (hopefully), many thousands.
2nd. The second tier professional players, band backup or bar or club etc., who know what they want in an instrument and will buy the best playing quality instruments with their own money, but not special, signature series etc.. because they don't see value for their hard earned money in things that don't improve the sound. These people don't buy enough to support a factory.
3d. The collectors, and they only buy certain rare or supreme examples of an instrument. Certainly not enough to support a factory.
4th. The great number of non-players who are fans of the first category, and want to be like them. They know very little about instruments other than what they see their star playing, and they will buy them if they can afford them (and some have fortunes to spend). But if they see a guitar that looks just like their star plays, but is only $199, they buy them by the thousands, or maybe millions. Now that will support a factory in Korea and move tons of plywood. Some of these will move into the first three categories in time.
The fourth category of players is new in the evolution of stringed instruments. Until the 1950's, guitars were hand made with a tradition of quality and innovation, and I think Ovation was part of that tradition , and they were impressive when they appeared.
I think most of the members of this board are from categories 2 & 3 and are trying to resist in every way possible, the idea of a guitar as a product of a factory, and I see this theme throughout the postings. There is a tendency on this board to the support of guitar building as the product of an individual who knows quality, and rejection of a factory that only knows volume.
Harley Davison went through a period of business control and were almost ruined under AMC. They succeeded when people who loved motorcycles took the company over. It is worth keeping the pressure on guitar makers to not abandon the quality that the players need for volume sales.
Bailey
I welcome any criticism of this opinion. | |
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Location: Scotland | Bailey, I think those observations are pretty close to the mark, the only thing I would contest is your point about "resisting the idea of the guitar as a factory product", and that guitars were ever handbuilt. Anyone who thinks the "classic" American guitars are or were made by anything less than the most efficient & cost-effective production methods attainable at any given time is kidding themselves. "Modern" guitar production, & by modern I mean from the mid-20's, has always been a production-line affiar. The steel-string flat-top was pretty much fully evolved by the late '30s and companies like Martin, Gibson & Harmony set thae benchmarks for guitar mass-production. Benchmarks which the likes of Ovation, Taylor & PRS would refine. Classic Pre-war Martins were not "handbuilt" (if your definition of handbuilt is in a small shop by one or two luthiers) same with Gibsons of the same era. They had a lot of handwork, but by several workers on various stages of the instruments. They also went for production volume, there were thousands upon thousands of the lower to mid grade instruments, churned out as fast as possible. The handbuilt, "custom shop" steel-string flat-top or solid guitar is a relatively new phenomenon, and most of the time they try to recreate factory-built instruments from the so-called "golden-era". Most of the guitars that collectors now wet themselves over, like Herringbone 28's or mid 30's to late 40's Gibson flat-tops were standard factory production fare.
Now, let's take a pop at this "relic" bullshit... maybe another time.
Paul
[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] | |
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Location: NJ | d'angelico koontz larson brothers stromberg are all luthiers that hand made instruments after mid 20's | |
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Location: Scotland | Yes, in relatively small numbers compared to the Major manufacturers. The American guitar & it's production methods as we know it, was pretty much defined by Martin, Gibson & Fender & a handful of other big names. While the instruments you mentioned would fall into my definition of handmade, i.e. in relatively small numbers by a handful of workers, thier rarity & expense sets them apart & they really should not be compared to mass-produced guitars.
Paul
[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] | |
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Location: NJ | Paul
I agree but almost all those luthiers set out to make a better Gibson or Martin Ironic isn't it?
I forgot to add Epiphone and even guild in the early days. | |
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Location: Scotland | Absolutely, as an example the Santa Cruz D's are essentially pre-war D28's, most upscale small-shop builders are using pre-war factory-produced designs as their benchmarks.
On a slightly different note, the whole "relic" guitar thing has me baffled, imagine if it was a car... "Well sir, as you can see we've pre-worn the tires, added some rust on the sills, and put a very convincing dent in the fender (no pun intended) all for just 75% extra" Madness, total madness.
Paul | |
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Location: NJ | Paul
I personally relic all my own guitars it is much more fun and I get to put the nicks dents and brusises in them | |
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Location: Scotland | That's the best, and only way to do it! | |
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Location: Orlando, Florida | Again, I think everyone went off on a tangent (no pun intended). Paul posted that this "Diodati" was an obvious rip-off. The question is if there is room out there for other designs and ideas. Let's face it, every guitar maker (including Ovation) has tried to take the cheap way out. In doing so they have also produced some really decent, affordable instuments as well. Not everyone wants to play (or own for that matter) a $140,000 1941 Martin D-41! You can make great music with a reasonably priced guitar, and not have a heart attack if you happen to drop it. That's one of the things I like about an Ovation. The price/performance ratio is almost perfect. A great sounding/looking instrument at an affordable price. To me, you can't do much better than an Ovation. I have had six of them (with one on the way) in the last 8 months or so, and all of them sounded great. I also own a Gibson CL-10, which sounds great as well, but I seem to be more comfortable playing the Ovations. They seem to be more durable. | |
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Location: Scotland | Once again, and to clarify, I posted that this was an Ovation copy, which, & this is the really important part, costs as much and is inferior to a used USA Ovation. I was not so much criticising the diodogdoo or whatever, they have thier place in the market, but expressing my incredulity that ebay punters will pass on superior used instruments for new junk.
Paul
[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] | |
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Location: Orlando, Florida | Again, I'm sorry if I mis-understood. It's just that it seems that some people defend their preferences and give no room for anything that might be different. Again, sorry Paul.
jyam4 | |
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Location: Los Angeles, California | I'm not sure if the fake-alikes you saw were made in the UK or Korea, but I've seen some others that resemble them here in Shanghai. It's scary, because the headstock is an almost identical shape to the Ovation and Adamas headstock. The electronics, of course, were crap (is that word allowed on the board ?) and judging by the way the multi-sound holes were cut through the "epaulets", the construction looked kinda like plywood. Anyways, there were the Elite-style and some F-hole guitars... with slim-line bodies. All played acoustically like junk. The Sales people at different stores tell me that these are made in Guangzhou, China. Apparently, they're becoming popular because more and more people know the look of Ovations, but not necessarily familiar with the great sound of Ovations. Anyways, the only authorized reseller of Ovations in China I know of is Tom Lee Music, and their Shanghai store only had 1 Legend and one CS257 left. Apparently someone bought the 2 Elites the previous week--At least some people know quality in Shanghai.
I ended up buying a cheapie :eek: Oscar Schmit (Washburn) to tied me over until I get back to the States. Can't wait to get back to my CE. :rolleyes:
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Paul
You are absolutely right about Ovations, Martins, Gibsons, etc. being factory made. But they were made to high quality standards with excellent materials, and their prices, while high, were within the ability of almost any musician to buy. It is quantity at the expense of quality that I am complaining about.
In Guitar Player magazine in May is a review of a Martin signiture edition OMC-18, plain guitar, great review, price $4449! Most of us would be afraid to take it out of its case if we could talk our wife into letting us buy it, and if I did, storing it in a bank vault wouldn't let me play it much.
In the same magazine are ads for name brand electric and acoustics ranging from $179 to say $2699 from the catalogs. Does this mean that I can save $2520, and step right up there and play with the top dogs?
My gripe is similar to yours, you are complaining about somebody copying a well known brand and trying to capitalize on the brands reputation while delivering junk, which is wrong. I am complaining about the brand names themselves doing essentially the same thing to get volume sales.
I will concede that there is some good stuff in the mid range prices, and some excellent used stuff if you know where to look, but the reputation stsrts and ends with the new stuff.
This problem hasn't surfaced in mandolins, the name brands are expensive, and the cheap ones aren't name brands. But even there, the cheapies will copy the headstock and body of a LLoyd Loar Gibson, but they won't put Gibson on the headstock, and few mandolin players would be fooled. I saw Ricky Skaggs in an interview on TV with his LLoyd Loar in his hands, he said essentially that he couldn't set it down, it was worth more than his house.
Bailey
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Location: Scotland | Fine factory-produced guitars, built with quality materials by skilled workers who care about the product, are readily available right now, if you are prepared to pay premium prices. Times have changed, raw materials, production costs & man hours are far more expensive, buyers are better informed & expect a higher/price performance ratio than ever before, & the guitar market has never had so much cheap global competition. American guitar manufacturers need to compete at every price-point to survive & that will mean ultimately they will produce instruments that the collector, enthusiast, pro muscician or educated buyer will not like. As you quite correctly said, those types of consumer will not support a factory. The answer is simple, don't buy the entry-level guitars, bite the bullet & pay top dollar for their top-line stuff, most of which is as good or better than the vintage guitars, or buy the quality used stuff at bargain prices.
Paul
[ July 05, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] | |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Paul (and anyone else listening..)
I don't agree that the "buyers are better informed & expect a higher/price performance ratio." They do expect higher price to equal higher quality... and in many cases it does not. I'm not as familiar with the Ovations imports as the USA models, but in many other brands, you can pay almost as much for a "well marketed" import without realizing that it's an import. I guess more importantly... I'd say 10-15 years ago... if you spent $800+ on a guitar you could be faily certain of the quality.. that is NOT the case today. | |
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Location: Scotland | Miles, maybe I sould have said "better informed if they choose to be" 20 years ago there was "Guitar Player" Magazine & that was about it. Now the newstands are bulging with guitar-related info. The UK has at least 4 monthly guitar mags, & I see at least that many US publications, then there's books, video, DVD, the Web. If the guitar-buying/playing public aren't clued-up it's their own fault, the information is in the public domain.
I'm also not sure of the relevance of comparing an $800 guitar 15 years ago to today, so much has changed. I still beleive that the average guitar buyer can get a decent deal & that guitars generally can represent good value. 35 years ago a Fender Strat cost around £300, while a small family car cost around £750. Now a Strat is around £900 while a comparable car is around £9000. It truly amazes me that the music retail industry survives at all
[ July 05, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] | |
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Location: NJ | I agree with Miles generally people are dumb they think if they spend the most money then they get a great product not always the case. I always tell people to use their eyes and ears as their judge. | |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Paul
Don't forget that the car has had 35 years of government safety, emission, and gas (petrol) mileage regulation. Guitars, so far, have escaped that economic burden. But who knows what hungry gov't regulator is lurking about, perhaps even on this board. Please members, do not make any statements concerning injuries caused by your guitars. Things like broken fingernails, blistered fingertips or even mental anguish can lead to a guitar that will retail for $3000, and will be made of quilted marshmallows and strung with rolled bubble gum, with strict decibel and music quality standards set by a joint EU-American policy group. Who knows what LURKS in the minds of men, THE SHADOW KNOWS!
Bailey :eek: | |
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Location: Scotland | I was kinda playing devil's advocate with the car analogy. The point I was clumsily trying to make was about the percieved value of musical instruments. We seem quite happy to spend 10, 15, 20 grand or more on a car, which will be a worthless pile of scrap metal in not many years, but 2-3 grand on a top-line guitar, which will last a lifetime, has the potential to appreciate in value & can help provide it's owner with a living, is a problem. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Paul
[ July 06, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] | |
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Location: SoCal | Both purchases are highly emotional and highly personal. And usually, both defy others' logic. | |
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Location: Orlando, Florida | I agree that "Both purchases are highly emotional and highly personal." I think that you need to play a guitar that you like, and works for you, and not succumb to peer pressure. If a cheaper import sounds good and works for you, you don't need to break the bank to impress anyone.
jyam4 | |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | I'll buy that, and I'll confess. I bought a Yamaki copy of a Martin D-42 in the 70's, that I play today. It's the best acoustic guitar I own, and I bought one for my oldest son that he still plays today. They weren't cheap, but cost much less than the equivalent Martin and the material and workmanship was excellent. By doing that I was able to buy 2 guitars at a time when I had 4 kids to raise and the prestige of a name guitar for myself would have been selfish in the extreme. Somebody already mentioned on this board that Yamaki went out of business, but they were a class guitar, and showed that imports didn't have to be second rate.
We had a banjo player of japanese descent in our bluegrass club who had a top drawer Gibson banjo, and could play it pretty well. (He was an engineer in his non-decadent life) We had to observe that all us hillbillies were playing Jap instruments, what did he know that we didn't? By the way, a Gibson banjo was over $1000 even then, and, as Paul noted, That would make a big down payment on some of the best muscle cars ever built.
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Location: Dallas | Baily, Amen to most of your theory. I started playing when I was 12 in 1964. I did by what I could afford which was a St.George bass without a case for 25 bucks at a pawn shop, and carried it in a plastic cover like trash bag.
Let me tell you that I'd prefer a cadillac over a volkswagon anytime brother. I like the way you broke it down, and you are right in alot of things. But, alot more detail goes into making a caddy than a VW. I'll take the Cad, in this case my Glen Campbell Ovation with the A/C and power steering and cruise control sound model 1127-4 M293 GC signature series. Also I'm still trying to find out what the M293 serial number means, and will have pictures up within the week of it. | |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Gizz
You are making my point in a sense. The manufacturers that I am whipping on have names that begin with F, G, and M. My daughter had a friend in Albuquerque who was trying to talk her into buying a Martin acoustic/electric like he had, I looked at a description of it in a catalogue, and it had a what looked like a plywood top, but the price was Martinesque. Ovation has not put their name on anything of this lower quality that I know of, the Celebrities are honestly foreign built, and are of pretty good quality. If you read the postings, Ovation is honest about factory seconds, unheard of today, somebody tell me when a factory second Fender has ever appeared, are they producing 100% perfect guitars? If I weren't retired and living on a fixed income, I would buy all those underpriced Ovations out there I could and watch the reputation of F, G and M crash on their catalogue junk. Hmmm, I don,t have a 12 string, time to start putting my money where my mouth is.
Bailey
[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: Bailey ] | |
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Location: Denton, Texas | Part of our problem with cost is that the value of the dollar has fallen to about 25% of the value of the dollar value established in 1968. With that in mind, a brand new Custom Legend, which cost me $1129.75 on March 12, 1979 should now cost at least 3 times that much=$3389.25 plus tax, title and license. Wages of the artisans who build these precious instruments (in the USA) should be 3 to 4 times what they were making in the '70's and 80's, and I'll bet they're not making forty or fifty bucks an hour, just a guess. | |
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Location: Somerset, Kentucky | Since I'm obviously the "newbie", & I don't know what MOTS means, I may be speaking out of turn here, but from the gist of the original post, it seems to me you're slamming an Ovation(?)rip-off, or maybe a Korean made Ovation? I don't know for sure, but I can say this, I own an Ovation Celebrity, made in Korea, with a strawberry colored, tiger stripe top, with gold hardware. It cost me around $800.00 US with the case, & it sounds killer to me. It's also acoustic-electric, which means I can go either way when I play out. As for recording, yes, I've heard Martins & Taylors, ad nauseum, that sounded better, but I've also heard quite a few more of the same that sounded absolutely awful. Occasionally, you get a diamond that slips through the coal factory, if you know what I mean. By the way, does anyone know where I could find a 12-string to match? Play on! :confused: | |
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Location: Scotland | Thank you. You have illustrated the point I was trying to make perectly. The $800 you spent on your Celebrity, which is a fine instrument, could have bought you a used top-range USA Ovation such an Elite, Custom Legend or Collectors series, which are significantly superior instruments. My point was that older used USA-made Ovations are exceptional value compared to new import copies.
[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] | |
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ovation rip-offs