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Location: SoCal | Saw Hall & Oates on tv last night. They are now playing Taylors. Is Ovation making any kind of effort to keep their endorser? |
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Location: NJ | Paul
I saw that show a few months ago. I think they made about 7 musician's shows and just keep repeating them.
the issue of endorsers comes up here all the time. In fact, I asked a salesman thie week who was handling artist relations and he did not know.
The woman that was left and he did not know if she was replaced.
I guess that is a question that a PI may need to explore to get some answers pertaining to whom the Ovation target audience is. |
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Location: NJ | Did they used to play Ovations?
I never noticed (I never was a big fan).
Taylors seem to be the current "flavor-of-the-month" that everyone seems to be hopping on to.
(Or perhaps they're offering really sweet endorsement deals).
I hope (for Ovation's sake) that Melissa Etheridge lives (and plays) to be 100.
Perhaps Ovation should follow suit of those hokey Martin ads with "real people" in them (like the three generations of Martin playing prison guards who enjoy naked late night jams after "lock down").
Hell, there are almost 300 people here alone that use them, love them, believe in them, PAID for them (except for maybe Bill), and use them for work/play on a daily basis. What more of an honest ad campaign could you ask for?
...on second thought...maybe not.
I don't think they'd want pictures of Al in the middle of the magazines frightening the children. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | This is a very good line of thought. Maybe someone should send it to the VP of Marketing and the President of Kaman Music and the president of the whole corporation. All three of them! let them hear from the "real world" that their products are going down the tubes. What do you say guys? |
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Location: NJ | Cliff
I have been know to scare even adults!!!!!!!!
but IMHO what better way to promote the product then via those here that love them????
one thing that scares me is that I have now more posts than cwk!!!!!
cwk
Sam once complained about an ad with a skateboarder well the "tony hawK" wannabe across the street from me bought an import fender so maybe skatepunks are not the target audience.
one thing that is certain is that taylor has an agressive artist relations department
[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: alpep ] |
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Location: Converse, Texas | When I saw WINGS back in 76, Paul McCartney (some of you are probably to young to remember that Paul McCartney had a band BEFORE Wings) and Denny Laine both played Ovations. Then, of course, there was Nancy Wilson (throb, throb). Ovation's marketing team needs to get on it! With all the "old" rockers touring again (Pete Townsend of The Who now uses a Telecaster vs Gibson SG that he used all through his career), there are great marketing opportunities here! :rolleyes: |
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Location: Scotland | Ovation's marketing is screwed-up. They ran a big campaign with Steve Lukather. Since when has Lukather been renowned as an "acoustic" guitarist? Just because he plugs-in a roundback for a couple of the "hey, we're gonna slow it down a little now" heartfelt ballads in his live show doesn't necessarily make him a useful marketing tool, unless of course it's their usual approach of "this is an acoustic guitar for electric guitarists" which is one of the reasons, IMHO, they are losing ground to Taylor & the like. Not many years ago Ovations were in the hands of top-line acoustic musicians like Bill Harrell (died-in-the-wool, old-time Bluegrass guitarist, who played an non-electro Adamas) Mark O'Connor, Tony Rice and the like. Unless they can make a wider audience realise that the guitars can compete acoustically with the best of them, AND work better than any of them plugged-in, they've got a big problem.
[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
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Location: SoCal | Well, we've been over this ground before. I don't think Ovation sees itself as an acoustic guitar company which builds guitars for acoustic players. Ovation sees itself as a guitar company that builds guitars with a plugged in acoustic sound for electric players.
It's a shame because their upper end guitars compete, soundwise, with almost anything out there. |
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Location: Denton, Texas | As someone returning to guitar playing after a lengthly sabbtical, I checked out the Ovation website and saw some teriffic new guitars,and called Brook Mays Pro Shop in Dallas, went to look at them the next day. I was shocked/dismayed when I picked up to test/play one of these guitars...you got it...Korean-made. I cancelled my order and bought an Elite 6-string which un-plugged felt and sounded superior and felt more solid in your hands than the former. As an old Custom Legend owner/player I feel it's a mistake to dilute the many aspects of a quality instrument by out-scourcing to the orient. Of course I'm not trying to keep a major company afloat so what do I know. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Guys, The problem is that there isn't any Ovation anymore. It is Kaman Music and Ovation is a product line, not a company. That is the context all this exists within.
Now that does not preclude the people managing the Ovation line from having proprietary attitudes about the line. The problem seems to be that they don't and management,(Marketing, Company and the total corporate) is not overly concerned that they don't have a proprietary attitude about the roundback.
Ranting and raving customers might get their attention. A ranting and raving former employee sure doesn't. |
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Location: SoCal | Who's the top dog at Kaman now? He's the person to inundate with letters. |
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Location: Seattle | Greetings,
Just discovered the site. Interesting. I've been an Ovation fan since I was a kid. Also a Hall and Oats fan. I'm pretty certain they have not played Ovation for a long long time. Which brings me to the issue at question. As much of a fan of Ovation as I am, I must say that the older lighter ones played and sounded much better, both acoustically as well as plugged in. The newer ones seem heavy and don't seem to have the acoustic warmth which I think transates into the line out. There's too much competition out there for Ovation to be losing any of it's edge |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Go to www.kaman.com from there you can see the various corporate officers. |
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Location: Australia | I agree with Paul and Moodpi.
Ovation really seem to have dropped the idea of promoting themselves as an ACOUSTIC guitar manufacturer.After all wasn't their original goal to build a better acoustic guitar ?
They probably feel the acoustic market is now very crowded and it's easier to promote what they're best known for - "plug it in" , "an acoustic electric from the ground up" and all that stuff.
Paul's right though, there's a certain type of acoustic player that they'll never atract with this style of marketing. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Here comes the 2 cents worth. We should all get out our Webster's and look up the words
"Business" and "Passion". Seldom do they ever mix. Kaman sells the stuff they do because they think it best helps the bottom line. Like it or not, they are not going to pour money into artist endorsements or re-introducing shiny back Josh White's unless it benefits their BUSINESS. At the opposite end of the spectrum are the 300+ members of this site, who have a definate PASSION for Ovation, most notably the Ovation of Old. A passion brings you pleasure, not necessarily financial rewards.
Todays O's just can't even come close to what else is out there acoustically. Go to your local shop and check it out yourself. I play Ovations every single day of my life and always will. I recently went into a shop and played a $1000. Martin 000-16. I was completely blown away by the acoustic sound. Same holds for many other guitars in this price range. My personal opinion is that the shallow bowls, massive electronics, and cutaways on todays O's have almost completely choked what started out 35 years ago as a superior product.
As soon as I leave the computer I'll sit down with some old shiny back or an old Adamas and live again what was once the state of the art. But that's a PASSION - it ain't a BUSINESS.
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Location: NJ | Dave
to a point I disagree. I think many of the currently offered products stand out in today's marketplace.
I would never compare a shallow bowl guitar to any other acoustic out there but the mid bowl guitars especially the Adamas line and the elites are really nice guitars.
Yes we are all passionate about Ovations but many here also own and buy new instruments.
Sure no one would deny that Kaman corp is in business to make money BUT you can make money and put out a quality well respected product at the same time.
I was thiinking about this today, Ovation started with a reputation that was new exciting daring different and special. Today even though the guitars have not changed much in theory they are considered an "old people's" guitar by the current culture. I think the reason why is because of the lack of representation by young guitarists etc. Exposure means a lot.
I was watching a Jefferson starship concert last night and jack cassidy was playing his signature series epiphone bass with a bartolini pickup which is obviously not stock. Well I knew the pickup was changed many others look and say wow he is playing an epiphone.
Sure we want to see a well made great sounding acoustic as well as electric guitar. If you are looking for that in a shallow bowl you will be disappointed. Now if the marketplace dictates that shallow guitars are in demand then the factory has to make them.
I know I keep saying this but the 2001 redwood top is probably one of the best sounding guitars I have ever played. Well how many were made I don;t know but those that have them I am sure would tell you how much they love them.
I never studied business noram I a good businessman so I cannot tell Kaman how to run their business but I do think that the blurred line between imports and domestic guitars has hurt some of the credibility of the line.
The last michael moore movie basically told the story that companies are profitable with making a quality product and staying domestic but they can make more product and more profit by going overseas. I guess it is ok if you justify it by saying it is keeping the usa facility open.
sorry I rambled way too much tonight |
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Location: Scotland | Al's right, There's nothing wrong with the best of the current Ovation production, they just get clouded by their marketing & cheap imports. I have a Santa Cruz D belonging to a client, sitting in my studio right now. It's a very fine guitar which has a list price of nearly 3 grand in the UK. It's owner was seriously pissed when he tried my '78 Adamas and newish SMT, both of which he prefered to his own baby. He ended up using my guitars for the majority of the recording session, not only did he prefer the sound, the Ovations recorded a lot better.
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Paul
Your remark about your friends preference of recording with your Ovations jogged my memory. I heard in the 70's that Ovations were the best guitars for clean recording, both acoustically and plugged in. Maybe that's a feature that should be plugged by the company, it seemed that the design eliminated some extraneous vibes that make wooden acoustics hard to record.
Bailey |
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Location: Scotland | Smaller bodied wooden guitars are usually fine, but some Dreadnoughts and Jumbos never seem to want to sit in a complex mix without needing lots of EQ, which just makes them sound unnatural. I've recorded with Ovations for years, so I've gotten used to the way they behave in front of mikes, and because the bass,mid & treble response is better balaced they make the whole recording process much easier.
Paul |
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Location: Seattle | Standing Ovation (Dave) nailed it. Like most eveyone in this forum, I have an enormous respect for Ovation and what they have brought to the table, and I have some older pieces I will never ever part with. They are a classic example of Yankee ingenuity. But I also have a strong sence of what they are and what they're not. Yes, 20 years ago everybody played em, Ovation had the best mouse trap out there. Since then the world of acoustic and acoustic / electric guitars has exploded with viable options, and frankly I don't think Ovation has kept up. It seems as though they quit listening. I suspect that Yankee ingenuity is still represented somewhere in that company, I'd love to see it surface again. Long live the round back!! |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Al and Paul,
I have not heard the redwood so I'll trust you that it sounds awesome. But sorry, to my ears the best deep bowl Ovations of today that I've played don't stand up to the best of 30 years ago. Just my opinion. I've played the SMT and the new ME 6 string and although I am a die-hard ovation lover, my ears and wallet tell me there are better acoustics for the money. Plugged is another story - nobody can touch what Ovation has. I recently tried the OP-30 and it is very nice.
But perception with the general guitar playing public is a big problem with Ovation these days. The celebrity cc057 for example, is what most people off the street would think is representative of Ovation. Kaman, the dealers, and the (lack off) endorsees do little or nothing to change this. Wouldn't be great for todays youth if Dave Matthews or Lenny Kravitz aggressively endoresed top of the line Ovations? It would probably have the same effect as Bobby Goldsboro and Glen Campbell did on some of us 30 years ago.
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Location: Scotland | "to my ears the best deep bowl Ovations of today ......... don't stand up to the best of 30 years ago"
Who knows how the new guitars will mature. It's a myth that Ovations don't improve with age if they are played. While it's perfectly possible to make a new guitar that looks "vintage" it's impossible to make a new guitar that sounds 30 years old the day it's built.
Paul |
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Location: SoCal | I think we're moving into territory that we've covered in the past, but it is interesting -- ie, current Ovations vs. those in the past.
I've played the new SMT's, and I think they are fine guitars. Oddly, they are very close in sound to my 20 year old Elite 1537. If something happened to that guitar and I couldn't find a direct replacement, I'd buy a SMT Adamas.
However, I don't believe that the issue here is, "are the current high end Ovations as good as the high end Ovations of the past?", I believe that the question is "Why isn't Ovation marketing, agressviely, their high end product?" The logical question that follows is "Why isn't Ovation pursuing stronger artist endorsments?"
Go into a music store and you'll see one SMT and maybe one Collectors. The rest of the Ovations will be Celebritys. Look at a Musicians Friend catalog and most of the Ovations are Celebritys. I believe that Ovation makes their profit from the overseas guitars so that's where their push is.
I have a theory that about 10-12 years ago, a decision was made by bean counter management at the Kaman Corp level, that product lines like Ovation would go concentrate on going where the profit was, not in producing the best product possible and that this was done despite the efforts of a certain long haired bearded exec who's attitude was "Hey, lets build a great acoustic guitar and just ad electronics to it." This decision led them to push the lower end guitars that had less manufacturing costs and could be moved quickly. This led them to push the "plugged in" factor over the more difficult to sell "great acoustic, unplugged sound".
I also think that this kind of thinking caused that long haired bearded exec to decide to chuck it all and go pump gas. Aw hell, what do I know, I'm just a small time thug. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Paul makes a good point. What will todays O's sound like in 30 years? I only hope I live long enough to find out.
Back to the subject of endorsee's - I hereby officially volunteer to be an endorsee of Ovation products. Dear Artist Relations manager, Please ship one of everything to me ASAP.
Dave |
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Location: Pensacola,FL | Oh well, for what it's worth - here's another opinion (and we all know what opinions are like ;) ),IMHO, I believe that some of the distress in the market place may be caused by so many different models (yes I know it's like cars, but...), it is very confussing when looking at guitars for sale, both new & used/vintage, to the average "buyer" who doesn't have the expertise/knowledge that the members of this board possess.Hell Ovation has so many different models you could get lost in the shuffle just trying to figure out what each one does or doesn't do! Back to what I was intending to say;
"Without a directed Advertising/Marketing campaign
that uses big name artists (both "old rockers" & the new "whiz kids") Kaman may well go the way of a lot of other companies who decided to "Rest on their laurels" rather than stay aggersive and competitive." {That was a mouthful :D }.
OBTW, A new guitar CAN be made to sound like a vintage one, but it involves destroying 100 year old pianos.......not a viable option....... :rolleyes:
[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: OGL1 ] |
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Location: Baton Rouge, LA | Dear Standing Ovation:
I concur with your assessment wholeheartedly! The Kamans should take to heart more enthusiastically our collective passion for the "old" Ovations. Gosh, I wish I had a shiny bowl Glen Campbell Balladeer!
Now, that's passion.
The org*sm comes later. |
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Location: Scotland | "Wouldn't it be great for todays youth if Dave Matthews or Lenny Kravitz aggressively endoresed top of the line Ovations?"
According to a 2000 catalog I have, Kravitz actually is an endorsee. Lenny Kravitz, that well-known acoustic virtuoso. I rest my case.
Paul
[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
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Location: Seattle | I think to blame marketing and artist relations for Ovation's loss of market share may be turning a blind eye to the bigger issue, although marketing is obviously important, consider the following...
Martin's ads are mediocre at best and to my knowledge they give little or no product away. I hear that Taylor gives no product away. Niether Martin nor Taylor feature artist's in their ads. Seagull does well and I don't remember ever seeing an ad for one, or a pro playing one. These companies products do the talking.
Is Ovation going broke? Why all the gloom and doom? I still see them around and assumed they still did better than most. |
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Location: NJ | I doubt that many artists pay list for their guitars. If you go to the Namm show Taylor has a non stop concert for 3 days of their endorsors playing their guitars. this means a lot to people looking to take on product lines.
As far as I know ovation is not going under but it is our passion for them that wants everyone to know what we love about them.
Marketing puts guitars in the hands of player and buyers that is a fact. turn on the tv today all you see are taylors now if all you saw were ovations it would be a whole different ballgame and we would not be having this discussion |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Never claimed Lenny to be a virtuoso, but for someone my age he's all I could think of who might be recognizable to todays youth. I did not know he was an Ovation endorsee. I looked at lennykravitz.com and lennykravitz.net and found about 100 photos of him playing at least 10 different guitars. Not a single one of them an Ovation. Missed opportunity.
I think Sonny is right, Martin does not have many paid endorsees, but the ones they do have pack a whallop - Eric Clapton and Steve Howe just to name two.
As for myself (and let's face it, that's who matters most, right?) If Ovation had a long line of famous endorsees it would not increase my love for Ovations nor alter my buying habits. The only thing it might alter is people's reaction when I tell them I play Ovations from bewilderment to envy.
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Location: Shelton, Washington, USA | $.02... my passion for Ovation is not driven by who endorses it. I admit it would be pretty cool if Keaggy (spelling?) endorsed. There are some pretty phenomenal acoustic players playing/endorsing Ovation i.e. Preston Reed, Adrian Legg et al.... This tells me that artists recognize the inherent greatness of Ovation. It is not their fault that the listening/buying public would rather listen to Axel Rose butcher Knocking on Heaven's Door or Megadeth butcher Whiskey in the Jar.... go figure... I work most weekends doing an acoustic gig. My guitars are all Ovation. I have four that I use in my show. Every show I receive comments from people about the O's. People like the sound, like the look, wish they had one, ask how they play (I usually let them play one of the guitars during a break), or they have an O and wouldn't have anything else. Every Show! Many of us on this board will nay say the Celebrity line, but the truth is that the Celeb line puts roundbacks in peoples' hands... and the Celebs aren't that bad. Many Celeb owners become Ovation owners, some Ovation owners become Adamas owners.... That's good enough for me.
(Not everybody can own a Ferrari.... but just about everybody knows what a Ferrari is...)
As I said earlier.... Ovations are my passion... a shared passion is the best, but a passion is a passion... How many hearts and souls have expressed themselves with the help of an Ovation? |
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Location: Seattle | Alpep,
You are assuming that the reason all those Taylors are on TV is because Taylor's marketing team put them there. Conversely, I think the observation made about Lenny Kravitz helps make my point. If Lenny is in the catalog, then obviously someone from Ovation actively courted him. But yet he has not been seen playing the product (and I have seen him play acoustic on a few occasions). What does that tell you? It tells me that "you can lead an artist to product but you can't make him play".
Did you choose the car you drive because of an ad or because someone you like drives one? Maybe, but I suspect the primary influence was the performance and reputation of the product(word of mouth). A marketing campaign can create a buzz, but ultimately the product has to sustain it.
I have a soft spot in my heart for Ovation. I too would love to see it regain it's peak position in the marketplace. That would be a blast! I also think this forum is a good place to start. |
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Location: NJ | when I was young and nieve I often thought that everyone used things because they liked them and paid list price. NOT.
when you have an active promotions department they make sure the guitars are visible that is their job. If Lenny does not play the guitars he dosen't get any more. Or they call his management and say hey you were on mtv playing a taylor and you have an ovation deal what is going on?
but what do I know I am just a nutcase with a dream |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | What amazes me most is how a topic of "Hall and Oates" could generate so many posts !!!
What's next - Did David Gates really play an Ovation on those Bread LPs or was it a studio musician? |
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Location: Scotland | The catalog I have has a "quote" from Kravitz something like "if they're good enough for Marley, they're good enough for me." I wouldn't personally listen to Kravitz for recreation, but I believe he is an artist of some talent & credibilty. However his association with Ovation guitars, and his stature, or lack of, as an acoustic guitar player says to me "If you want something to plug-in, buy an Ovation, but if you want a "real" acoustic check out the competition"
[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
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Location: SoCal | For 35 years Ovation has climbed an uphill battle trying to get players to play their guitars. Those they play them without preconceived notions tend to like them. The vast majority of people believe that a wooden guitar should sound better. Taylor, for one, makes beautiful instruments that sound ok. That's enough for most people. As the people on this board know, you listen with your ears, not your eyes, and not with your prejudices.
I'm getting tired of this subject. It just depresses me. Anybody like to make a contribution to the Moody, p.i. Thunderhead Purchase Fund? Still no bidders on this baby.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=892758002 |
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Location: NJ | I was going to respond but walked over to my rack of guitars and spent 30 minutes playing them. I suggest you try the same it does wonders for your head. |
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Location: SoCal | Actually, did the same thing. Went downstairs and watched Boy Meets World on the Disney channel with my 10 year old daughter, and noodled on my Ovation classical. I'm kicking around the idea of selling that guitar to buy the Thunderhead. I don't know how, emotionally, to sell a guitar.
[ July 10, 2002: Message edited by: moodypi ] |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | I have a couple of Ovation "sightings" to report, one new and one very old.
I was watching CMT on Saturday and saw Phil Vassar playing his recent hit "An American Child" on Most Wanted Live, and then on the Grand Ole Opry, and the mandolin parts were played on an Ovation mandolin, plugged in and sounding very good. My theory that all us mandolin players need a good acoustic electric mandolin is becoming fact. Also, I've noticed the mandolin is showing up in all kinds of music today, but not necessarily played by old bluegrassers.
The very old question I have is that on Life and Times of Kenny Rogers, was he playing an Ovation slothead classical guitar at about the time he went country? I swear I saw one but the shots weren't real clear. Anybody know if Kenny Rogers was an Ovation player?
Bailey |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Yes he was, played a 1613 and the variations thereof. His band played them too, a range of models. |
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Hall & Oates Playing Taylors