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Location: New South Wales, Australia | Can anyone tell me what zero fret means. I was just flicking through a guitar magazine at my local newsagent and saw it mentioned in a couple of separate articles. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | It's a fret right up against the nut and it makes one end of the scale length. There's pros and cons of zero frets.
Dave |
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Location: New South Wales, Australia | Does that mean that chord positions change? For example, would an open A major (on a guitar with a zeo fret) be played on the third fret? |
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Location: Sydney, Australia | No, just treat the 0 fret like it is the nut - it's usually too close for you to consider trying to fret above it and I presume the string rests on it when you aren't even touching the guitar. |
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Location: the BIG Metropolis of TR | Just liken it to using a capo.....The capo becomes the "nut" and presses the strings to the nearest fret which becomes the "zero fret."
I have a inexpensive (cheap!) Harmony guitar with a zero fret.....I alway thought it was a lazy way for makers to keep from precisely cutting the nut!...... |
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Location: Jet City | Oz, here's a zero fret. See how the first fret serves as the nut? The place where the nut would be is just grooved for the spacing, then the strings drape over the first fret that acts as the nut. The action is just plain silly it's so low. It also tends to have a uniform sound which some like and some don't. What I mean by that is that a string has a different sound if it's fretted on a metal fret as opposed to an open string that's fretted on a plastic or bone nut. So every note is always fretted on a metal fret.
That's the theory anyway. Some also say that lower end manufacturers did it to save money, though I don't think that theory's been substantiated.
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Location: Jet City | Ha! As TRBoy said while I was typing and finding pictures.
My doubleneck was no "cheapo" though. As a matter of fact, I hear these custom job doublenecks cost the price of a small car back then (and is worth about the price of a small car today still!). Semie Mosely just believed in the zero fret concept. |
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| It was/is a way of correcting/tempering intonation (see all the current posts).
In terms of cheap - it was a cheap way of getting uniformity on cheap guitars rather than having to accurately cut a nut in the days before computer-controlled mass production.
In terms of not cheap - a lot of old high-end guitars have zero frets and sevderal high-end manufacturers even now will fit one if you ask.
All Semer-Macafferi guitars (gypsy/django) have zero frets.
How high or low the action is depends entirely on how big/high the zero fret is.
I've always thought they were a good idea, but I know nothing. |
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Location: Cork, Ireland | Found on high end and low end guitars, but not in between? |
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| All django guitars - so the mid price ones have one, but I don't ever remember seeing one on a mid-price electric or wood box.
At the cheap end there were more guitars without than with. |
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Location: Scotland | Zero-frets are generally associated with cheap guitars as it was a quick and easy way to establish one end of the scale length and also the height of the nut to clear the first fret. Instead of cutting nut slots to the correct depth a zero-fret just requires a fret-bead slightly bigger than the rest of the fingerboard. The nut then just deals with string-spacing. Much quicker and less skill required, therefore cheaper to produce. The only advantage is that a zero fret can even out any tonal imbalance between open and fretted notes, but that's pretty subtle. Zero frets were quite common on European guitars, including Selmer/Maccafeeri style guitars, and their clones, and some high-end stuff (Fylde for example) but are rarely seen on USA-made instruments. |
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Location: NJ | gretsch use/used a zero fret |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | +1 on Gretsch. I have a zero fret on a vintage Chet Atkins Country Gentleman model, but it also has the full nut. |
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Location: Scotland | So did Harptone, Mosrite, Baldwin(Burns) Kramer (Ali neck versions) and probably a few others. So apart from Gretsch, which USA manufacturer still in businesss makes Guitars with a zero-fret. |
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Location: NJ | probably none the zero fret was more of a european thing
hofnor hagstrom eko vox etc
(not positive on all those some models may vary) |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Ok... Ill ask.. Doesn't a brass or aluminum nut serve the same purpose... like on the UKII. |
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| Don't think so - it's still a nut not a zero fret. Either the nut or the zero fret is where you start to measure from. |
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Location: NJ | the zero fret is the EXACT measurement of where the string should be in comparision to the bridge.
the problem with a "nut" is that the string is not at the right position. therefore some manufacturers either end the frist fret a little short to compensate or don't care at all.
see buzz feiten system
also messenger guitars had a compensating nut (I think) there were also a few others.
my ears can't hear the difference |
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Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | Here's a shot from the Internet of a Gretsch CG showing both the full nut and the zero fret.
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Location: New South Wales, Australia | So what's the point of having both? |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Originally posted by alpep:
the zero fret is the EXACT measurement of where the string should be in comparision to the bridge.
the problem with a "nut" is that the string is not at the right position. therefore some manufacturers either end the frist fret a little short to compensate or don't care at all.
see buzz feiten system
Wouldn't putting the nut where it's supposed to be make sense? And I agree, it's not like most can even hear the difference. |
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Location: Jet City | Originally posted by ozwatto:
So what's the point of having both? On a zero fret, the nut is there to provide proper string spacing. But on mine, I don't really have a nut. the slots are cut into the wood of the headstock. Just a few months later Mosrites did have a metal nut instead of the grooves like mine up above |
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Location: Tennessee | I have an Epiphone Viola bass with a nut and a zero fret. But it is just a knock-off (albeit a good one) of the Hofner bass that is the same way. |
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Location: Indiana | When it's done right a zero fret layout can be a joy to play. |
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| Totally agree. |
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Location: Cork, Ireland | My first guitar, an Egmond, had one. That was an old, cheap guitar and was a joy to play but only because it was my first guitar! |
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Location: Copenhagen Denmark | ZERO Fret is the BEST ! ...also more costly !! ( When done Properly )
However...it all depends on how Well Made the whole instrument is ..
Vic |
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Location: Tychy, Poland | on my Legend i have zero fret installed. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Originally posted by LBJ:
on my Legend i have zero fret installed. How did you do that without reslotting an entire new scale fretboard? |
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Location: Tychy, Poland | this guitar had it's headstock broken and it was strenghtened by additional, small wood block.
guitar was refretted.
pics:
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Location: 6 String Ranch | That's one way to do it.
I never liked them but what do I know, I just used to sell jet fuel.......... |
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Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by Mauvais Beal:
I just used to sell jet fuel... Ahh, good ol' JP-4... used it to light our "CHARcoal" in Nam!
Ooops, wrong thread... :D |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Ok... a little Off from the point of this thread... but..
Especially on an Ovation, why would one repair a headstock? Wouldn't replacing the neck be as cost effective? |
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| ..I don't know, but my next O or A will be special ordered with a zero nut system and stainless steel fret wire... |
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Location: Tychy, Poland | Originally posted by Mr. Ovation:
Ok... a little Off from the point of this thread... but..
Especially on an Ovation, why would one repair a headstock? Wouldn't replacing the neck be as cost effective? maybe because i live in Poland? and there's a lot of bad things that can happen to the neck on the way?;] |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Originally posted by LBJ:
maybe because i live in Poland? and there's a lot of bad things that can happen to the neck on the way?;] LOL... wasn't asking you specifically, although not being someplace where getting the neck or shipping the guitar is certainly a good reason. I hadn't thought of that. However, I still have seen quite a few neck repairs on Ovations over the years, and just thought it odd. Your reason makes perfect sense. |
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Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Older Epiphones had a zero fret too. I've been wanting to post that for days now, but my computer's been on the fritz. It's back now, and so am I. |
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Location: Wooster, Ohio | Have an 1978 Carvin doubleneck with zero frets. Necks were made by Honer. Zero fret European thing mostly. I think the idea makes sense.
Steve |
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Location: New South Wales, Australia | My lack of knowledge knows no bounds. I realise I've played a guitar with a zero fret but I didn't know it. It was a friend's guitar....a cheap one, dunno the brand....and I remember thinking to myself.."why does this thing have this extra fret?"
It didn't seem to do anything and the guitar was one of those that would've sounded crappy no matter who played it.
So if I was to play a higher class of guitar with a zero fret, would I notice a difference or is it something only the more knowledgeable among us would appreciate? |
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Location: Omaha, NE | Zero frets always remind me of the cheap Sears catalog guitars I would pine for as a kid. |
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| This by Roger Bucknall, the man who is Fylde Guitars:-
"I could never see the sense of "stopping" the string in one fashion for open strings, and in another fashion for fretted notes. Neither does it seem logical to use different materials for the two different situations.
Holding the string in a closely fitting nut slot affects the strings vibration and exaggerates "end effects", which are one reason for difficulties in intonation, particularly on the stiffer strings. The end effects are different for each string, and also for different "partials" within the same note.
Allowing the string to rest gently but firmly against a fret for all position minimises these end effects, and reduces the need for for intonation correction at the saddle.
I first started using it after working on Martin Carthys guitar, which had been modified with a zero fret- to begin with I thought of it as a way of improving string height and string length accuracy, but bit by bit Ive come to see it more scientifically. Maccaferri and Gretsch used the idea in rough form, and a number of modern makers are beginning to see the advantages. One famous spanish maker used a similar idea, where the bone nut is shaped into two section, fret and spacer.
Although it has been used on cheap guitars, when done properly, it is not a short cut in manufacturing. Even if it was , it wouldnt be appropriate to save a small amount on an expensive guitar. To take advantage of its benefits, the angles of the strings over the zero fret need to be carefuly adjusted to be similar to the angles produced by finger pressure, the slots in the nut are shaped and smoothed to aid easy tuning, and it is very important that the zero fret is at the correct height for proper string clearance.
Its difficult and time consuming to do properly, but I wouldn’t do it if I didn’t think it worthwhile." |
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Location: Brisbane Australia | I wonder if Air guitars have them?? :D |
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| In Alaska they're called Sub-zero frets. |
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Location: NJ | YouBETcha . . . |
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Location: closely held secret | Like he knows. He thought there were mountains in Alaska, too... |
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| They were falling into the sea last video I saw. |
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zero fret