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Location: Colorado | With 5 piece neck and solid spruce top I would think that a 1977, 1617-2, Legend would be worth more today that it was in the 70's.
To this day, it's quality and playability rival guitars costing $1,500 to $2,500 today.
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Location: SoCal | I agree. But the market doesn't necessarily agree. |
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Location: Tennessee | IMHO, an Ovation is only an investment in your own pleasure over the long term. If you look at going market values, there is no real appreciation in value unless you have the elusive slothead Adamas or other extremely rare piece, or there is a spike such as the recent Ultra GP (which will come back to earth soon enough). Contributing to the phenomenon in the relative indestructability of Ovations ... seems to me that most Ovations bought even 30 years ago are still in service and they stay in beautiful condition. So the real investment is that you can buy a guitar you love and decades later it will still be as sweet and structurally sound as the day you got it. |
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Location: Scotland | A Legend of that era can be had for about the same or a little less than they were when new, which compared to some guitars isn't bad but could hardly be condidered an investment. Older Ovations are incredibly good value on the used market and I don't think they'll appreciate significantly unless they are particularly rare models (examples of which have been suggested in other threads) If you want serious investments guitars probably aren't a great idea unless you know what you're doing & have a lot of capital to play with, or some hotshot player starts using the obscure guitar sitting in your closet. The guitar market is way too fad-driven to be a good investment and most of the really valuble stuff is already in the hands of dealers/collectors or may have peaked financially. It's nice to think something that gives you a lot of pleasure may eventually turn a tidy profit, but I'm quite happy to have nice instruments regardless of their investment potential |
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Location: NJ | the bottom line with anything as an investment is that you have to find someone else that wants that item more or as much as you did.
Unfortunately Ovations have not for the most part reached that level of collector's status that some of the other brands have. Well these brands also have much longer histories involved Givsung and marvtin and flendor.
I think that Ovations will have their day and it may be sooner than you think.
but ultimately if you want to make money do it in a bank if you want to collect instruments then buy them because they make you happy. |
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| >> With 5 piece neck and solid spruce top I would >> think that a 1977, 1617-2, Legend would be
>> worth more today that it was in the 70's.
>> To this day, it's quality and playability
>> rival guitars costing $1,500 to $2,500 today.
It really depends on your own definition of investment. You got a girlfriend because you sang love songs to her with your 1617?
Nevertheless, you would be disappointed if you think 1617 could be sold for what it did back in 1977. It was listed $590 then, but many were sold on eBay between $200 and $350.
1617 is a good guitar, but I seriously doubt that it could rival guitar in the $1500-2500 range. You can get a lot of great guitars in this price range. For example, I bought a Taylor 714 for $1200 in mint condition. It sounds better than my 1617, both plugged & unplugged. |
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Location: Scotland | Dealer prices for Legends of that era are around the same or more than when new. Beacause of the nature of Ebay, prices for this kind of guitar tend to be a lot lower, which is great for the bargain hunter though probably not representative of true worth.
I have an '82 Custom Balladeer in for a refret at the moment that leaves my 72 Legend for dead. Most Taylors I have heard or played I have found very uninspiring. I have played very few new Martins or Gibsons that would make me part with two & a half grand. It's very hard to compare or generalise about instruments because they are all individual & unique, and everyone's perception of a "great sound" is different. I would agree that if you spend a couple of grand on a new guitar it's probably going to be better in many ways than a 70's Legend. But at the current going rate a Legend or similar is a giveaway.
[ November 19, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
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Location: Tennessee | As has been posted many times, it's all a matter of your own perception. I had a fanatic Taylor owner at an event at my house and she was totally blown away at the sound of my 6759. She played all three of my Ovation acoustics for well over an hour and ended up borrowing the 6759 for a recording gig (over her Taylor 12-string). I will note, however, that the craftsmanship and inherent beauty of Taylors are remarkable. |
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| Your 1-2 years old 6759 custom legend 12 string has MSRP $2099!! I would be surprised if your friend picked a 1617 over her Taylor, however. |
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Location: NJ | I find taylors not to have any personality. they play well and all sound the same. I guess if that is what you are looking for fine but you certainly don;t need to spend mucho dineros to do that. |
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Location: SoCal | On the way home I stopped off at the Guitar Center for strings (12 string set --- gonna string up my old Legend Nashville style -- oh boy!). I was discouraged to find only about 7 Ovations in the store, and the two good ones (2002 Collectors and carbon weave Adamas) were so high on the wall that you couldn't play them without asking for help.
Anyway, Taylor just came out with a nylon string guitar, 12 frets to the body. Had a robust sound. I was impressed. Then I looked at the price. $1700 for the inexpensive one, $2300 for the expensive. Nice, yeah. Would I buy it, no. |
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| "I find taylors not to have any personality. they play well and all sound the same. I guess if that is what you are looking for fine but you certainly don;t need to spend mucho dineros to do that."
Chances for Ovation's sound the same is much higher!! Ovations use the same plastic bowl vs different wood side & back on Taylor, Martin, Guild, etc. I have owned over two dozens of Ovation guitars since the 70s. I'm speaking from the owner's point of view.
I'm not saying Ovation is not good. My point was that 1617 cannot be better than $1500-2500 Taylor or Martin. Period. |
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Location: Scotland | "My point was that 1617 cannot be better than $1500-2500 Taylor or Martin. Period."
The whole mass-production process of guitars is not consistent enough for this statemant to be completely true. Just because a guitar has a high price tag & a "name" on the headstock does not guarantee anything. You can find mediocre or uninspiring production guitars from every manufacturer at every price point, equally you can find cheap or mid-price instruments which will instantly speak to you. Also it's difficult to define "better". The materials in a 70's Legend are generally superior to just about any current mid-price (up to say $1.5K) production guitar.
Every brand of guitar has a signature sound, Ovation, Guild, Martin, Gibson are all instantly recognisable. To me all but the top range Taylors sound good, but have no character. They're just too generic, especially the current 300 & 400 series.
[ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
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Location: NJ | Originally posted by sunny:
"
I'm not saying Ovation is not good. My point was that 1617 cannot be better than $1500-2500 Taylor or Martin. Period.
So if I charge you $100 for a hamburger and the next restaurant charges $7 and it is made from the beef of the same cow the $100 burger would taste better? sorry but your logic based on the price of an instrument alone makes no logical sense.
As always let your eyes ears and hands choose and not your wallet.
I have no interest in taylors and I have tried I have played every one that I can get my hands on and just cannot warm up to them.
Martin has made some stellar product but their instruments that are priced under 2K are sometimes laughable |
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Location: RI. That small State out East | Investment... Check Paul's "Adamas ebay alert" posting a few days back... I did check on it and it was / is a great guitar. I didn't pull the trigger... But... That is one hell of an investment that someone made. Let's see... an early Adamas for $1,025.00 WOW. I think that without a lot of trouble that guitar could bring several hundred more. Now back to investment. Buy a "new" anything and the day you walk out of the store it will drop like a rock. I have 3 Ovation and 1 Martin guitar. I took the Martin in to see what I could get... Not much. I guess I could have tried to sell it on ebay... Hell, I can give it to one of my son's for a future present.
Buy it, play it, enjoy it. As for investment. You missed one last week.
Woz |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | A couple of comments, of which I think I have posted before..
1. Guitars as an investment. I think is still a good idea. Better than a bank in most cases (not all) but generally better. One advantage (if you can make use of it) to a musical instrument is that you can always PLAY IT to make money. In the mid 70's I used to go to Boston, to The Common (park) on Friday evening, pop open the case of my Medallion, and in a couple of hours make enough to have a fun weekend of food, drink and women, not necessarily in that order. Over the years, just that one guitar has seen many gigs. If I gave it away, it was still a better investment than most things I own. Is it better than Coke stock bought in the 40's... no.. Is it better than Enron stock bought 2 years ago.. yes.
2. As far as "what or who has the better guitar" that really is a matter of taste. I like Ovations for a couple of primary reasons. I believe you can always take away sounds you don't like (via technique or eq) but you can't put in what isn't there. Most standard box guitars, have a lousey frequency curve. Of course the marketing strategy of those guitars is "Its DEEP RICH TONE" which translates to "there are no highs." There is also this observation. I have heard many box guitars either sound fantastic or like total doggy-doo at almost every price range. I have never heard a really bad sounding Ovation. I don't really like the sound of the Tangent, but... I have heard much worse, from much more expensive guitars. I'm not talking about badly setup guitars either...
Martin and Taylor have some fine instruments, and so does Yamaha and Takamine for that matter. I just feel with many of them they are not as flexible in tone as Ovation. They all sound like "standard" box guitars with differnt degrees of warmth. I like Ovations because I can play and "hear" ALL of the notes on the neck if I want to.
My two favorite examples of what an Acoustic guitar should sound like are Heart's intro to "Crazy on You" and Blue Oyster Cult's "Don't Fear The Reaper". One is an Ovation (as far as I know) and the other a Gibson. They were just played and recorded the way they should be.. in my book. |
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| " Martin has made some stellar product but their instruments that are priced under 2K are sometimes laughable "
Since you are selling a lot of Ovation on your Web site, I can tell you are more interested in Ovation :-) Martin under $2k are sometimes laugable? Which one?
My D18 ($1200), HD28 ($1300) & HD28VR ($1500) all sound better than my 1617 & 1111, with better materials. Again, I don't believe 1617 from the 70s can be better than guitars in the $1500-2500 range. Not those being sold by Alped, of course, as I find his prices too high. |
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Location: NJ | Originally posted by sunny:
" Not those being sold by Alped, of course, as I find his prices too high.
glad I have no clue who that bozo is |
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Location: NJ | Now, is that the Bozo as in the "Bo-show" guitars, or were you referring to the Larry Harmon variety?
". . . That's a "Bozo No-No"....." |
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Location: Scotland | "Not by Alped, of course, as I find his prices too high"
Too high compared to what? Ebay?
Al's prices seem very competitive compared to many stores or online dealers, especially for some of his rare or hard to find stuff. Comparing a dealer's prices to Ebay & the like is ridiculous. Private individuals looking to liquidate a guitar that has sat in a closet for 20 years or have something they don't know the value of, are not barometers of an instrument's true worth. Also, they do not have to make a living out of selling instruments, or have to deal with maintaining an inventory & the rest of the hassle that comes with running a business.
Laughable Martins under 2K? All of their shitty formica guitars, the entire R series. The new metal-fronted monstrosity. If fact just about anything except what they're known for, like the 18 series & up. I played a nice all mahogany 00015 recently, but stil found it over-priced. The prices you quoted on your Martins are way below list.
[ November 20, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
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Location: Colorado | Keep in mind, I did not say my 1617 was better that the 1,500-2,500 dollar guitars, or worth more, but that the PLAYABILITY and QUALITY were as good.
The point is, you cant touch these attributes in other guitars for the near the same price. Pick up any $600 guitar today and I bet you wouldnt trade it for your 1617 or similar Ovation model...eh!
If the guitar could sell for more than was paid, then it would be a -=financial=- investment. The years of joy and the fact that the instrument is in as good a condition as it was when I bought it has been investment enough for me, surely.
My point is that with this level of quality and playability costing thousands in new models, I would think this line of early Ovation would soon start to come into its own and as a sought after guitar. Not that it would attain collectors status but that the going prices might start to climb above original values say by 20-30% or so. |
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Location: Bloomfield Ct | I have a little fresh first hand experience with this question as I bought a Taylor 710CE just 2 months ago, for $1400.00. the guitar was 3 years old and in showroom shape. The first owner paid $2400.00 for it new. So it cost him $1000.00 to play it for 3 years. (which he did little of because it was lousy on stage . His words.)I thought the guitar played nice and I never owned one so what the heck, I bought it.
I own a few nice Ovations, and a couple not so special ones. I played this $2900.00 list price 710CE Taylor against my Adamas. No contest. played it against My Patriot, Still no contest. The Most credit I could give the Taylor was I thought it had more oomph than my 1869-1. So WOW a big three grand Dreadnought out performed my super shallow acoustically.
Plugged in however. The 1869 is far more useful. That blender thing is tough to control at any on stage sound pressure level.
The Taylor is superbly built, and looks well worth the price. I feel however that it lacks bottom, fullness, sustain, dynamics, and soul. It is not better than the 1970's vintage Ovations I have, at any price. So the assumption is not correct. You know.... You don't have to drink the Koolaid!!! |
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Location: NJ | Originally posted by cliff:
Now, is that the Bozo as in the "Bo-show" guitars, or were you referring to the Larry Harmon variety?
". . . That's a "Bozo No-No"....."
I was thinking more in the Ted Bundy variety |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | As someone who has overpaid for a few guitars in my life, I can say Al is NOT one of the people I ever overpaid for anything. His prices are extremly fair.. that's why I keep him around :) |
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Location: NJ | come to think of it maybe it was John Wayne Gacy.... |
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Location: Zion, Illinois | John Wayne Gacy would be the one. He use to perform as Pogo the Clown. He also worked on a few building in my area.
I forgot, what does this have to do with guitars?
Bradley |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Taylors keep popping up on this board like the drunken uncle, I think I had the Taylor shop in Old Town San Diego do some repair work for me in the 70's in San Diego, and they were ordinary people with an interest in making guitars sound good. When does a luthier become a factory, you have all defined it when you point out that Taylors are no longer quality, in the 70's, the Taylor luthiers played each guitar and passed judgement as to whether it should bear the name. Southern CA was a hotbed of bluegrass and folk, and Taylor was part of it, every time a manufacturer gets national attention, they start thinking IPO with great riches. Then the accountants take over and tell the luthiers to get their ass out of the way and let the managers make some money off of this fame that only they can exploit. That may explain modern Taylor guitars.
My new computer seems to have a truth element built in, I'll try to control it.
Bailey |
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Location: Colorado | When did this phenomina happen to Ovation?
In all fairness, your sinario rings true of the birth of any company, large or small. It doesnt mean they don't make a good product, at least once in a while, I.E. Tuesday thu Thursday (hi).
Buying a guitar is like buying a pair of shoes. One decides on a model then trys on every pair of size 10 1/2 in the store(s) until one fits. |
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Ovation; an investment?