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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Hello everyone. If I had to buy an Ovation today, I would not be to excited about my options. I know I am a fan of the older Ovations, but where are the deep bowls? Wasn't the whole concept of Ovation based on the round back? Now you have to "special order" many deep bowl models. I spoke to someone at Ovation awhile back about this. He told me that the company had moved to a more "stage" guitar. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? Isn't it an acoustic guitar first? The deep bowl give you the bass that in my opinion make the Ovation sound. I am abit biased because of my Adamas. But I have played so many shallow bowls, and they are not for me. Well at least we still have the AL De meola Custom Legend with the deep bowl. Keep em deep...Paul Hebert |
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| See Paul’s post # 848 under the topic ‘Deep Bowls Rule!’ and if you counting on the 1769-AD5’s you might think about getting one now. |
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| Yep, I agree with you all. As you can see from my recent post, I too have come to the realization that the old Legend series with the deep bowl was the 'Ovation Sound' that I remember from my youth, and that the current crop including the 2002-AC beauty just doesn't have it.
Now that I have my mind wrapped around a Custom Legend standard deep bowl (no cutaway) with natural finish (-4), I was suprised that the 1779 that is still listed on their site now has NO picture and many of the specs. are omitted - as if it is being discontinued. It was the only Custom Legend that was not shown with a cutaway.
The 1769-AD5 is not and can't be ordered in natural finish because it is a signature series! So, unless I can find my guitar on ebay, I'm forced to special order a modified 1779 (at extra cost and probably 6 mo. delay) with a deep bowl and natural finish. This combo. now does not fit the model number convention - it should probably be a 1619-4. Now, I ask you - is this a way to promote the 'Ovation Sound'? It's sad the hoops we have to jump through to get what Ovatin used to produce every day. Are they really selling all these bass-less instruments that they really believe that is what the customer wants, or is this just a bad marketing decision? |
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Location: NJ | Well it seems that most buying ovations now want to plug them in and use them on stage. That is fine unfortunately to get great tone out of the guitar you need to have a deep bowl but don't forget there are other companies that also make shallow acoustic electrics too like Guild for example and these guitars have the same problem so don't think this is just a move made by Ovation it is a move made by the industry |
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Location: Scotland | It's perfectly possible to have a full-size guitar work well on stage at high volume, it just takes some good outboard gear & an understanding of how to use it. For some people it's cheaper & less hassle just to eliminate the sound-box. But, a good amplified tone begins & ends with a good acoustic tone, you can't polish a turd. I like the sound of super-shallows plugged-in slighlty more than I do unplugged, which is not at all, but they really should be considered a different type of instrument altogether and shouldn't be compared to full-size guitars. Unfortunately the market will dictate what will be produced & it would appear that the majority of electro-players prefer guitars which have the acoustic sound compromised in order to achieve a feedback-free, but ultimately bland & generic tone.
[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
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Location: Bloomfield Ct | Its true that you really need to have the full bowl to get that old "signature " Ovation ssssoouunndd.. Having said that I have a super shallow that I simply love the tone of and its the one I play most often. I am working on my finger style technique like crazy these days,(Christmas tunes you know) and the SS gives me the most ballance and shimmery tone. Its a 1984 model and sounds great acoustically.
The current SS guitars don't quite have that sound, but the factory is working on coaxing a bit more "acoustiic tone" out of the shallows. It can be done. I hear they have their "deep bowl" irons in the fire as well.
I tend to think of it as the same thing you would get between a dreadnought and an OM sized guitar. You can't expect the OM to rumble like the dread. The OM has its own tone. Lighter, sweeter, with less dominant bass. More balance. If you really want the "ooomph" of a dreadnought, you don't buy the OM.
I think the world knows by now that Ovations rule on stage. They have a pickup that stays ballanced no matter what gauge strings, or what tuning you use. Robert Fripp used that new standard tuning he dreamed up, and has said it would not have been practical without an Ovation. On stage the Super shallow gives the player more of an "electric feel" And thats why they are more in demand by the rockers. Thats OK as far as I can see. Ovation still has to believe they are an "acoustic" guitar company as well however. And they need to develop some real sounders to keep their faithfull users in the fold. |
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Location: RI. That small State out East | I only have mid and deep at home. The 17yr. old and his gang have "trouble" putting there arms around the deep. I think that the "comfort" issue is what is driving the marketing... The same gang love the super shallow 12s hanging on the wall at the local guitar center... The "gang" plan to plug it in so the big unpluged sound of the deep doesn't impress them. That said they come from electric guitars first and now are trying the unpluged for an everyday guitar... The feel is thin and not bulky.
I wonder if you start playing with an electric and look for an acustic you might "always" have
that wrap around problem.
Woz |
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Location: Scotland | The comfort thing is definately a factor. A friend of mine wanted an Ovation and I found him a used but mint deep-bowl Custom Legend. He loved the guitar but his beer-gut didn't and after he struggled with it for 3 or 4 months I ended up selling it for him. Deep roundbacks & deep round fronts don't seem to be compatible. |
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Location: Back in the Valley of the Sun Mesa Az. | If I could afford to get my arms around a deep-bowl Custom Legend, I'd go on a diet! Priorities!
Norse(talk about motivation!)man1 |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | I'm no expert, but I must say that I do not hear a significant difference between my deep bowls and artist depth bowl models. Question - is Artist depth the same as mid depth? To me the biggest detractor from the original Ovation sound is when you throw in the cutaway and load up the body of the gutar with all those big electronics boxes. I took a two-knobber Adamas (which sounded pretty damn good to begin with) and I ripped out this huge electronics box and a big battery holder. The guitar just came to life acoustically. I resisted even trying a SS bowl for a long time and only last year got my first SS and I must say that the comfort is amazing and I always pick up this one when I just want to play around a bit. It sounds aweful acoustic, but plugged in it's great sounding and a perfect stage guitar. Dave |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | You guys hit on another part of the topic that I forgot to put im my original post. Almost all Ovations are cutaway models. Here again you are cutting into the acoustic tone. You have already lost volume with the shallow bowl, and to decrease the area more with the cutaway I don't understand Thanks to all of you for your input. This has bothered me about Ovation for some time now. |
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Location: Scotland | There are lots of variables. There's generally only a very subtle difference between a deepbowl cutaway with electronics and a mid-depth cutaway (the mid depth is slightly deeper than the old "artist" depth) The difference between a cutaway & non-cutaway of the same depth is so subtle it's hardly worth considering. Those differences are exagerated if you compare a deepbowl, non-cutaway acoustic-only model with a super-shallow, which is missing the point of both types. A single guitar usually will not cover all the bases without some compromise (though I'm hoping my new custom Ovation will!) Decide what you need the guitar to do & buy an appropriate model, that's why there are so many options. However I think that offering deepbowls only as a special order is letting the side down. There should be a few more production deepbowls for the people who want that sound.
[ December 10, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
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Location: Back in the Valley of the Sun Mesa Az. | My deep bowl 1117 Legend with a mic has a beautiful rich mellow tone for rythmn guitar. My deep bowl 1711 Balladeer plugged in has bright harmonics for leads and flat/finger picking. I love the sound they both make, but you're right Paul, it's what you want to use it for.
Norse(either way, I can't go wrong!)man1
p.s. My poor Fender, it looks like Tiny Tim's crutch... left well preserved by the fireplace! |
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| What about the Folklore Deluxe - isn't that a new model from Ovation with a deep non-cutaway bowl? |
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Location: SoCal | Ovation only built 100 of the limited edition Folklore. Has anybody heard any response on the sales of those, or reaction to them? |
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Location: Australia | Deep bowl, non cutaway gives the best acoustic tone.
Both my 96' Custom Legend and my new custom made Adamas are like this.
It really irritates me when I see Ovations stupid magazine ad's they're currently running.
There's the one with the guy with the American flag Custom Legend screaming into the camera and the own I really hate is the Swedish (I think) girl band (Spice Girl Clones)holding various models and claiming they use Ovation.Who cares!
My new Adamas sounds so good, I wish they would also promote the acoustic side of the instruments. |
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| Elderly Instruments and Alexandria Music in GBase Gear Mall. Both have one of the new Folklores for sale and they have had them for some time.
Mike |
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Location: Scotland | "Deep bowl, non cutaway gives the best acoustic tone"
Very likely, but half a dozen people having a polite conversation will make your great-sounding acoustic tone virtually inaudible.
The entire history of music & musical instruments has been driven by a quest for greater volume. Louder instruments mean reaching a bigger audience, which means more money is made. In the early days it was Martin making bigger, more robust guitars designed for steel strings, Gibson developing their "Advanced" instruments, the Larsons making flattops a family of four could live in, the Dopyeras and their resonator guitars. Later it was Barth & Beauchamp, Bigsby, Leo & Les. Later still, Jim Rickard developed the first serious acoustic pickup that didn't sound like an electric guitar.
The point is that now there are several completely different applications for "acoustic" instruments. At one end of the spectrum there is a need for a great-sounding acoustic guitar, period. Then there is a need for an instrument which can sound acceptably like an acoustic guitar at stadium-gig volume. Somewhere between those 2 extremes there is a need for a guitar which will do both the plugged & unplugged thing reasonably well. To survive in today's market a guitar manufacturer has to be able to produce a range of instruments which meet those criteria & more.
I think that Ovation by now will be aware of the need to keep the acoustic players happy, the new Folklore was an indication of that & hopefully more similar instruments will follow. The reintroduction of the original Adamas is a very positive step. But, I think acoustic players, & I count myself as one, should accept that electro-acoustic guitars designed primarily for stage use are as much a fact of life as the Fender Strat, shouldn't be their first choice of guitar and should stop comparing them to acoustic instuments.
Paul
[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
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Location: Australia | Paul,
I don't disagree with your point on volume, I love plugging too.
However, great sounding acoustics have alot more applications than sitting around with half a dozen mates.
My point is the modern Ovation companies total emphasis on "Plug It In" gives the average punter every reason to believe that plugging in is all they're good for.
Hopefully Ovation are heading in the right direction, hopefully their marketing will follow. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | What direction? What marketing? |
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Location: Australia | I walked into my local guitar store today and they had a new Ovation poster...
...Yep, it's the punk with American flag Custom Legend...
Arghhhhhh.......!!!! |
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Location: NJ | is he a player or a model? or both????? |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | What direction? What marketing?
As a side note I have unofficailly heard that picture, whoever it is, has pist off many of the right wing, more conservative, more christian, etc of the Ovation fans. To balance that I wonder how many of those type of punks they added to their list of loyal fans. Any?????? |
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Location: SoCal | What's funny about the ads, is that as I approach 50 (much faster than I care to), and can afford better guitars, ads with people like this kid turn me off. I aboslutely love the Taylor ads because they are aimed directly at me. Just don't care for Taylor guitars.
I would guess that it make for financial sense to sell more Celebs at a lower cost than high end guitars at a greater cost. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Paul, you're right. It makes sence (and lotsa dollars) with celebrity sales. However the point of those models is to get the person playing an Ovation and then move him up to the USA models. Doesn't a Chevy driver secretly wish for a caddy? (I know this argument might not always hold water with cars but the concept is still valid) You gotta make them want what you make in your own factory!! At least that's how I looked at it, maybe it's different today.
I agree with you that the Taylor ads have a certain appeal to us old pharts in rocking chairs, (I like the one about his drinking improving). At a time when there aren't any, or many endorsees, for whatever reason (separate discussion) it would be smart to make the ads in another direction that wouldn't make that fact obvious. Martin is doing this as well with their everyman ads.
OK, now back to the rocking chair to practice my drinking (geritol). |
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Location: SoCal | Never liked geritol, but metamucil is the prefered drink of us old farts everywhere.
[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: moody, p.i. ] |
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Location: Ragley, Louisiana | I have a 1973 DEEP Bowl straight acoustic Balladeer "1111" that has a sound to "Die For". I've played with a number of folks thourgh the years that say "If I could find an Ovation that sounds like that I would buy one!!".
I know the market has to drive the industry to some extent, but I think Ovation is wrong to forget where they came from and what made them what they are today. They HAD a great acoustic sound and I personnel think theres still a market for that guitar.
DJ |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | AMEN! Ovation use to be an acoustic guitar first. MY Adamas does what a good Ovation should. It sounds wonderful both as an acoustic and plugged in. Perfect! |
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Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Let me chime in to the chorus. My 1st Ovation was a repair job I got on an Ebay Auction. It also is an 1111, black peghead and neck, with "Balladeer" in script between the tuning pegs. Never seen another 1111 like it. And truly, the sound it makes is real close to ethereal. It's the "alpha" guitar in the menagerie. Even the CS-255 has to patiently wait its turn, despite the nice electronics and action job. Remember to always dance with the one you brought..... |
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Location: SoCal | Seesquare, I'd also bet that your Ovation 1111 has a shinny back. And I'm in agreement with people here that for many many people out here, our guitars should perform well acoustically and plugged in. I suspect that that is a big part of the charm of Takamines, Taylors, and others, ie, that they are good both ways. If people love their guitars, then they will play them on stage or at home. I don't see the companies listed above feeling the need to sell a super shallow bodied guitar for stage work.
OVATION... DO YOU HEAR US? MAKE A GOOD SOUNDING GUITAR (LIKE AN OLD BALLADEER OR ADAMAS OR ELITE) AND SELL IT RIGHT, AND PEOPLE WILL BUY IT. AT THIS POINT, YOU'RE NOT DOING MUCH OF THAT RIGHT.
Aw, what's the use? Nobody's listening. But when I go to the NAMM show in January (hint Cliff), I'm going to corner somebody at Ovation and make them listen. Might do some good. Aw..... |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Why not get some of the higher ups, with letters in their titles, and give it to them face to face when you all go to the factory? Nothing wrong with the NAMM show either, just that is a busy, crazy enviroment to try to have a meaningful conversation. Been there, done that, doesn't work. |
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Location: SoCal | Hey Bill, you forget what I do for a living. I can get their attention. |
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| It's interesting (and fortuitous) that this subject has come up right at the time I'm in the market for a deep bowl Custom Legend. I've been in communication with Mark Lamanna at Ovation about my needs and that Ovation doesn't have any deep bowl Custom Legends available (in fact I couldn't find ANY deep bowl model) EXCEPT the Al Dimeola Signature, which is a take it or leave it model - no changes. In fact, it appears that the deep bowl models that used to be available, 1111-4, 1779-4, and the rumored Folkslore, all have no picture and missing specs. on the official web site, as if even these are being deleted/discontinued.
Mark gave me a statement on the subject which does not sound good for the deep bowl models: "The reason that we have moved from the deep bowl to mid depth and shallow/super-shallow is due to market demand. NO ONE HAS BEEN ORDERING THE DEEP BOWLS (emphasis mine) and they were asking for other options both appearance wise and for playability".
It appears that the only deep bowl Ovations will be Old Deep Bowl Ovations. So much for progress. |
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| Donald,
I stronyly urge you to try a deep bowl Ovation from any local store. If you think the 2002 Collector's Edition is bassless & lack of character & personality, you might be disappointed when you receive a deep bowl Custom Legend.
People often chase things they don't have. Your recollection of the sound of your ex-wife's Ovation 25 years ago might not be entirely accurate.
I compared my 2002 with 1619 (deep bowl Custom Legend from the 70s). 2002 has better tonal balance & good bass. If you really want more bass, you should try Martin D18 or HD28. |
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| I agree with your caution. I've thought about the possibility of 'false memory syndrome' and have tried to find ANY deep bowl Ovation. There just aren't any around my area. While waiting for an ebay purchase, I'm still searching for a chance to hear one. So far, my current preferance is based on my 'memory' and discussions with Ovation cust. serv. and forum members. I still love the 2002-AC visually. I have a picture of it on the table near the couch. I darn near bought it. |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Donald, I like you like alot of bass in an acoustic guitar. When I bought my Adamas in 1981, that was the thing that grabbed me. It has TONS of bass! I know the top has alot to do with that. But without it's deep bowl back, it would not be possible. I will never be a fan of the shallow back. Once you get use to a guitar that has such a uniform sound, it's hard to play anything else. Again, as when I started this post: WHERE ARE THE DEEP BOWLS!!!!!!!! |
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| Donald,
You may want to go to several major guitar stores in LA this weekend. They may have some used deep bowl Ovation. Ovation 2002 Collector's Edition (mid bowl) has good bass & tonal balance relative to other Ovation guitars. By the way, are you sure the one you tried was 2002 Collector Edition (Made in USA), not 2002 Limited Edition (Made in Korea)? 2003 Collector's Edition is coming soon.
You should also try some high-end Martin, e.g. D18, D28 ... D45. at the guitar store just for bass comparison.
If you want to get the 2002 Collector's Edition or other Ovation, you could get them online 30-50% off . No discount if you order a deep bowl Custom Legend from Ovation directly, however. |
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Location: Scotland | Donald, talking about sound is like dancing about archicture....meaningless, Find a guitar you like and trust your ears and hands. If the guitar "speaks" to you buy it, think about the bowl depth later. Every instrument is unique, if you have the time & opportunity try as many guitars as possible before you make your final choice, but ultimately the final choice should be yours and yours alone. I'd agree with Sunny that a Martin dreadnought generally has more bass than any Ovation, the problem is that they have very little of anything else, and that's why I prefer the Ovation sound: balance, stronger midrange. As a recording engineer I know it's easier to EQ out what you don't need than try to put in what isn't there in the fisrt place.
[ December 13, 2002: Message edited by: Paul Templeman ] |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Gents
What a great discussion, I had chimed in a couple days ago with a diatribe on the pleasure of a great acoustic sound for jamming with friends, setting around the house and doodling as we all do, and generally using a guitar in settings other than full stage entertaining. I commented on early Glen Campbell shows where he was playing acoustic Ovations that I'm sure he chose for their great acoustic sound but were difficult to hear and on later shows the electric versions appeared with a great amplified acoustic sound, and how we learned from earlier posts that the goal of Mr. Kaman was to match or exceed a Martin dreadnought that he owned. I summerized with the question of shouldn't the goal that inspired the Ovation be adhered to since it attracted many great players.
I lost my connection and the whole post was gone for good and I sulked for two days while everybody else said the same thing.
What was the original inspiration for the Ovation acoustic should not be forgotten. A Ferrari by Fiat will not be a Ferrari.
Bailey |
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| Amen, Bailey. I too was thinking that Ovation should always have available a nicely outfitted Custom Legend Deep Bowl, no matter what direction marketing is promoting. That sound should never be lost. Like I said earlier, all other tastes are fully covered in the line=up - except this one. |
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Location: NJ | bailey
point of information. the martin d 45 belonged to Jim Rickard. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | Al, that's true about the D-45 but there was a 65 D-28 that was a constant comparison piece also. |
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Location: Nova Scotia, Canada | Bailey, I have one of GC's earliest deep bowl acoustics (late '68) and can attest to the face that he had to have liked the sound of it. It is the best sounding roundhole I have ever heard and one of the best sounding acoustics I have ever heard, period. It has the bass and the highs that we all love but the midrange...it just snaps out of the thing. The neck profile (thickness, not width) is considerably larger than the later guitars and I believe that a larger, stiffer neck like this contributes to the sound of any guitar.
Wayne |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Apologies to Jim Rickard, I knew that and I believe Jim was as much the initiator of the vision from what we've read. I truly believe that there is nothing more inspiring than an exceptional acoustic. As Paul T has said, when you end up on stage you find that amplification is needed, but it takes many hours, days, months, years, of woodshedding to get there, and a guitar that inspires and amazes you will make that practice time much more fun. One other observation is that the best players transcend the guitar quality, they can pick up whatever is laying around and make it sound like whatever they want, that said, they still gravitate to the best for personal use but don't always take that irreplaceble acoustic out of the house and risk it being stolen.
We need those great acoustics even if we don't take them out to the dives we're working in. No acoustic guitar manufacturer will be considered professional unless they have a quality guitar with above average sound, note that I didn't say appearance, sound is what counts, it can be plain as anything but the sound will cause professionals to praise it, I never heard any player say I've got to be seen with that beautiful guitar even though it sounds like S--T.
Bailey |
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Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Case in point- Willie Nelson. |
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Location: Ragley, Louisiana | A-MEN !!!!!!
DJ |
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Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | This is a great discussion. Obviously, I have no compunction against aiding & abetting rebellion and generally causing a nuisance, i.e., "Whaddud they gitcha for, Boy?....). We need to establish a grassroots movement for the Mother Ship to maintain at least one deepbody in inventory!
On other fronts: Hey, Paul- thanks for your speculation on my ancient 1111, really helped me out. BUT.....it has the dull, pebbleback bowl. Like I said, it's the only one I've ever seen. Unfortunately, somewhere in it's travels; it lost its serial number. The foil label says 1111 (no hyphen, no extra number), made in Connecticut. I'm figuring it was made in the early '70's sometime. Solid as a rock, straight as an arrow, voiced like an angel, with PERFECT intonation. I am truly blessed.
In the spirit of the season, my friends, "God bless us, everyone." Be well, and kind. |
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Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada | I hear ya, Norseman1!!! I bought a Martin D28 in 1981, and it was the be-all end-all, until I ended up with an Ovation Elite deep bowl 6 and 12 string. Still have the Martin, but it just stays in it's hardshell case--doesn't quite keep in perfect tune like the Ovations!!! |
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WHERE ARE THE DEEP BOWLS????