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| OK, I'll be the first one to admit that this has nothing to do with my "O" - per se. But it seems that there are some good musicians here to answer this quick question.
I have become pretty fluent with the pentatonic scale in all 5 neck positions. I want to record myself playing some basic chords so that I can solo along with the recording.
If I want to practice solo'ing in the key of A (which, I believe is actually A minor in pentatonic), what are the chords to play on the recording? (As you can see, my music theory is really weak).
Thanks!!!
Alina
1999 Legend - my best friend |
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Location: NJ | the I the IV and the V chord
so in A it would be A D E
a note on soloing and improvisation: a good way to get started is with one note. play it in every rhythm imaginable. Then you can go on from there. Memorizing the pentatonic scale is great but don't forget the passing tones.
Remember you are only 1 fret away from a good note. and if you start on the tonic and end there everything will fit into place.
hope that helps. I am not so sure if I would call myself a lead player or even a guitar player for that matter. |
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Location: Scotland | If you're playing in Aminor, the pentatonic minor scale in it's root position will work, but, if you want to play over an A major progression you need to play the relative minor scale which is Fsharp. Where chord progressions are ambiguous in their major/minor tonality (such as the A D E progression Al suggested) you can use both the minor & relative minor scales. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I wish I learned scales so I could get from one note to another more easily, but the MOST important lesson to learn lead is to LISTEN TO THE MUSIC and play WHAT FITS THE MOOD AND TONE OF THE TUNE.
In other words, you should be able to hum the lead, or at least hear it in your head, then just learn to play it. Learning the scales should just be a tool to speed the process along a little.
As Al stated, you are never really more than a 1/2 step away from a good note, but in many cases the "correct" note or "correct" series of notes, might not really convey the "feel" of the song.
My favorite example is the lead from "Sweet Child'o Mine" by GNR. Although I can play the lead, I don't know the key but I do know from an interview I read that it supposedly has NOTHING to do with the key of the tune around it. In fact, Slash got quite a giggle about the fuss that was made for him "uncovering an old, almost forgotten early blues technique" when in fact in his words, by time they got to coming up with the lead for that tune he was pretty wasted and just played what he felt.
By the way... you asked about learning to "Solo" then stated "I want to record myself playing some basic chords so that I can solo along with the recording."
If you are soloing.. then there are no other insturments playing at the time. I assume you really meant you wanted to learn to play lead.
If you are truely soloing, then just play what you feel and don't worry about the key.. let some other bozo try to figure out the chords. |
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| Thanks for the answers, guys.
Although I have been playing for nearly 15 years, it has always been playing someone else's music, never trying to create music of my own. So, even some of the terms that you use don't mean much to me: "passing tones", "you are only 1 fret away from a good note" and "relative minor scale".
I don't want to burden you with trying to explain this stuff (but feel free if you want to try :) )
Can you recommend a good source to learn these basics?
In the mean time, I'll just practice playing lead using the I IV V key chords as background.
Alina |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I consider myself more a "guitarist" than a musician, so maybe my definitions/explanations will help.
"passing tones"
You are playing a G and the next beat you want to play a C. Do you just play the C or do you "pass through" or walk up to the C by playing some of the notes in between. The supposed "correct" notes of the scale based on the key you are in, would be the passing tones. This link explains in more detail.
"you are only 1 fret away from a good note"
Again an oversimplification but... You play a C note and it doesn't fit whatever chord is being played. Either B or C# will most likely fit. Remember every note is part of maybe a dozen scales. This link has some entertaining discussion.
"relative minor scale".
Well this link seems to explain it pretty well.
Of course all this aside... my favorite thing to scream at moments of frustration is.. "6 STRINGS AND 25 FRETS AND I STILL CAN'T FIND THE &#%@ING NOTE!!!!!!" |
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Location: Scotland | Relative minor: The notes of an Aminor pentatonic scale (A, C, D, E & G) are derived from the A natural minor scale (A B C D E F G A). The A pentatonic minor scale will sound wrong over most chord progressions based on the A major scale (A B C# D E F# G# A) The F# natural minor scale is F# G# A B C# D E F# which contains the same notes as the A major, which is why it is called the relative minor. The F#minor pentatonic contains the notes F# A B C# & E. Every major scale has a relative minor scale. The relative minor uses the same notes but starts on the 6th degree of the scale. For example The relative minor to Cmajor is A, A being the 6th note ( C D E F G A B C)
The upshot is if you want to use a pentatonic minor scale over a major progression, play it
in the relative minor key. A quick way to find the relative is to flatten the root position minor scale by 3 frets.
While I agree that feel is important, learning some basic theory means you aren't fumbling around in the dark for years trying to figure out what works and what doesn't |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | What Paul sais is very true. "While I agree that feel is important, learning some basic theory means you aren't fumbling around in the dark for years trying to figure out what works and what doesn't"
Although I feel I learned more about playing and creating my own style by fumbling around, it would have certainly been easier to play along with others if I had a better handle on theory.
I must admit that although I guess I have been playing for close to 40 years, and played lead in several bands, I am somewhat embarassed that I do not know how to run a scale that is more than an octave long. I have learned some long scales or runs via tablature, but I can only play them in the place they are for the song. There are songs like Crazy Train that I learned to play almost note-for-note and then added my own riffs, and I have no idea what key it is in, and really don't know what most of the chords are. But we're all family here... so I don't mind admitting it. I'll get my blue and green hair dye and still tear it up with the best of'em. |
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Location: Alabama | Great question Alina. I'm in exactly the same place as you, trying to learn to play lead with the minor pentatonic scale over the 12 bar blues progression, accompanying myself on tape. I'm glad you posted the question, after all the reason we got our Ovations in the first place was to express ourselves with music. And Paul, Al, and Miles, thanks for some very informative and helpful responses. You guys are always helpful and I always seem to learn somthing here. :D |
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| Thanks for the great info!
Can someone suggest a good source (perferably a book written for guitarists) that will help me learn these basics?
Thanks!
Alina |
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Location: NJ | Alina
matt smith has some books out. Check out his website he is listed in the links section.
In fact I am going to e mail him and get him to contribute to your thread |
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Location: Scotland | This music theory site is pretty good
http://www.musictheory.net/ |
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Location: nyc area | the best way to learn to make a scale sound like music when improvising is to minimise your options... instead of playing all the notes in a scale pattern, play just one note.. in this case I'd reccomend rhe A on the 1st string, 5th fret.. I know this may seem boring, but the only way to make one note sound cool is by using rhythymic variation and dynamics.. (loud to soft)... when you get a groove on, add another note, say C (8th fret, 1st string) Its amazing what you can accomplish this way... as you add more notes, sing along with your guitar... you communicate with your voice, so it makes sense to use your voice when communicating through your guitar.. pretty soon, you'll find your self soloing over the chords with ease.. |
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Location: SoCal | This is one of the most interesting threads of info I've seen in a long time.
Interesting what Matt says about singing the notes. If anybody's ever watched George Benson play, you can see that he's always singing his solos while he's playing them.
Hey Matt, when you coming to southern Calif? |
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Location: nyc area | I'll be performing at the Ovation booth at NAMM at the anahiem convention center with Steve Logan on Bass and Kalani on percussion with many special guests..NAMM is trade only so you'd need to get a pass from someone in the buisness (music stoe or maufacturer...There will be postings on my page on the board from the show...(tounge in cheek, of course...) other than that, I'll be doing my spring chop shop tour...I'm sure we'll have socal dates... check my site on the links page for updates.. |
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Location: SoCal | Oh, I'll find a way in. If I may, I'll come on by and say hi. |
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Location: NJ | Matt
Paul Miles and I will be the ones yelling free bird and flicking lighters at the edge of the stage. |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | You guys have all posted some really great information-as usual!
Just to add a tidbit, the old saying "know the rules so you can break 'em" a good rule of thumb. I've learned guitar both ways...through fumbling on my own for years, and then also through studying a little music theory.
Music theory was very intimidating when I didn't know any-and I thought originality would go out the window once I learned it. Years later, and still only having a basic theory understanding, I have to say it's like having turned a light on...now I can understand the note/chord choices that will work and which ones will sound "quirky"-BEFORE I play 'em. The days of "poking and hoping" (as my first teacher called it) are far fewer, and I think that knowing what I can choose makes me more creative than just guessing.
More important to me (now) is knowing a bit about what chords work well with other chords for songwriting...which relates to Alina's question "what chords can I play" underneath a solo (or melody). The value of a little theory is incredible, and I never thought I'd be one to say it!
Lead guitar wise, I found the Guitar Grimoire series the encylopedia for understanding lead playing, as it lays out just about any scale you could imagine using, and maps out in the keys you need all over the neck. It's just a great reference to have over the years. guitargrimoire.com
Oh...one more thing...if you play a "wrong" note when soloing, play it again so people will think you meant to play it the first time!
Peace,
Johnny |
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Location: SoCal | At his memorial service, it was said of Chet Atkins that he never played a wrong note, just "other" notes.
What's the Guitar Grimoire? |
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Location: NJ | It's spelled "Guitar Grimore".
It's a series of books on guitar theory.
I was actually considering picking up a copy myself. |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Actually, it is spelled Grimoire. The website is www.guitargrimoire.com |
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Location: NJ | Right after I posted that I checked it.
I stand corrected. |
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Location: Great Falls, MT | What a wonderful discussion. Makes one want to spend time not just playing but learning how to play better. I've learned a lot from you all just reading these type of posts and putting them into practice. Never did I think that owning an Ovation would also mean that pride in playing would be enhanced so richly. Keep it up!
Dave |
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | That goes for me as well! :D |
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Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | after pushing 4 decades of hacking along by ear, this thread has me making a new years resolution of learning about what i am doing and why it sounds good when it occasionally does. maybe i should have never started taking guitar theory in the mid 60's from a boring scale nazi when i really wanted to hang out in coffee houses and play dylan, the byrds, and beatles stuff to long haired chicks with too much eye make up. that teacher made music theory like cod liver oil to me and i quit before we got to mary had a little lamb.
allot of musicians here get totally lost when a real well studied musician plays with us and starts speaking in musical tongues. we all look at eachother with a desperate "you mean it's not 12 bar in e" look. otherwise we would have real gigs in front of sober people. it's time to learn the lingo gringo is my motto for 2003. |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Let me take a crack at all this deep theory. I've been playing both lead and rythym for over 50 years and I have a few basic observations of what to think about if you are faced with an audience that has payed a few bucks to hear us and wants their money's worth. First, we must play SONGS, whether we write them, or play other's songs, we must know the chord structure and perhaps the speed that is relevant for the song, then, if we have to sing, we should know the words and melody and perhaps some harmony to make it better, and then as a bluegrass player, a break on the melodic theme on your instrument is deriguear, now you can imitate someone or play that break you've been practicing for years.
Basically, you must learn the structure of music before you can fly . LEARN SONGS then you can entertain. |
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Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | hey bailey-------how are you doing recoverywise after that nasty sounding accident? |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Russ
Thanks for asking, I typed a long and detailed answer to your posting on friday night and the gods of brevity knocked me off line before I could post it and bore everybody. I was hit in the driver's door by a young guy in a pickup who ran a red light. It destroyed my car and knocked me unconscious, I don't have any broken bones but my left side and leg is one big bruise from hip to ankle. My playing arm is OK so far so the rest is not fatal, but I now walk like an old man that has been hit in the ass by a truck. I lost my newest glasses so I can't see worth a damn but I hope my lawyer gets me some recompense as the guy was insured and three witnesses told the cop that showed up that he ran a red light. (He had the same company as our insurance so our agent is busy chewing us out for getting a lawyer because they could have "settled with us" without a lawyer) It's been 4 weeks (including Christmas and New Years) that we have been without a vehicle, and they haven't payed one red cent and they offered us blue book wholesale on our car that was totalled.
Anyway, after Al's good report, I'm buying a 1990 GMC Suburban in excellent condition so next time I do the damage in a collision.
Bailey |
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Location: Alabama | Bailey;
Good to know you're on the mend and still pickin'. I've got to think the lawyer was a good idea, especially since you both have the same insurance company. Good luck and keep us posted. :) |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Thanks ceres
I've been pretty much grounded with no vehicle and your good feelings help a lot. We're moving on, and in a day or so I should have my suburban. I'll reveal a little secret, I wanted that Surbuban even before I was destroyed in an accident, maybe fate awaits us and answers our desires with a form of justice. For those of you that see a bright light as you expire, I had strange dreams of an unknown better life as I was unconscous in the broken car, I woke up as if I had been sleeping, and they were asking me if I knew where I was, and to begin with I didn't know know where I was, then the reality set in that I was seriously injured. |
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Location: SoCal | Was there an Ovation slot head in that better after life? |
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Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | glad you're on the mend bailey. i can really relate to your aches and pains, and that glimpse past the light at the end of the tunnel. when i hit a dumptruck with my harley 32 years ago in alaska (should have been in your old travelall) i was out for 3 days and had some pretty hard mental sorting to do when i came back to the real world and realized what had happened. the "dreams" weren't much better, triggered by the pain i guess. i've had two other life altering accidents since then and have the utmost sympathy for those who have tested their bodies against metal and have lost. i hope you continue to recover and stop walking like an old man. leave that to us guys with lots of practice.
and remember something that has always helped me amigo bailey-----------------donde cierre una puerta, mil abren. |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | moodypi
It was different as Russ has said, but no, we can't stop you're constant desire to acquire more Ovations. The experience of being blown away by a speeding vehicle doesn't translate to a lessening of a desire to own more Ovations. I'm plotting my acquisition of a new twelve string as I work on getting my Suburban.
And Russ
You are absolutely right about the dreams that are in the mind after this kind of trauma. The people who examine us probaby couldn't keep a cycle upright, I'm still alive and kickin. |
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Location: SoCal | Cool chord link.
http://guitar.to/folder/guitar.html |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Paul
That is great, I'm amazed at the amount of work some people do to be seen on the web. I added it to my favorites. |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | Al
I picked up my Suburban tonight, it is great, it has a heavy duty radiator and a transmission cooler, fuel injection and an overdrive transmission and a third seat, removable if needed, I'm going to prowl the roads for the red light runners and bulldoze them off the road before they can do what they did to me. They will regret letting me buy a full sized truck.
Bailey (The Avenger) |
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Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | paul,
that chord link is now on my favorites list. i have a little planet waves electronic chingadero that gives 5 common positions for each chord, but this is the whole thingie. playing with it for awhile the patterns start to show up. the light bulb is starting to glow after all these years.
the 29th is shaping up to be the best day for me in longbeach. i'll have a silver label acoustic 12 string that needs a setup, and a 1612 balladeer waiting for me in lomita. should i bring them to lunch? i'll pack my trenchcoat and gumsoles in case you need help following the bad guys. |
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Location: Alabama | That Is a cool chord link, thanks Paul. |
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Learning to solo