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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | If I ever needed proof that Ovation's new Q model will be way overpriced, I got it last week. I was lucky enough to take a tour of the Composite Acoustic factory here in my home town. I got to see the guitars being made from start to finish, and I am totally impressed by the guitars. For 1400 dollars, you get a totally composite guitar with incredible tone. This is a young company that really listens to musicians. In fact the guy that took me on the tour really listened to my opinions, and I even bought my Adamas over to compare. This guitar is every bit the equal to my Adamas ( never thought I would say that!). If you get a chance try one, you wont't be dissapointed. I just wish Ovation would try one. Maybe just maybe the Q might not cost so much!....Paul Hebert |
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Location: The Shop | The rumor i heard was the parts were made overseas and that they are jst assembeled in the US.Is this true? I do not not know.dont forget that the Q is 100% graphite,everything except frets strings and tuning pegs.Dont know what the CA is comprised of.I know we have some at the shop for bench marking. |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | CMS-Man, the Composite Acoustic guitar is all made here in Lafayette, Louisiana. The only thing they don't make is the fingerboard which is ebony, the tuning keys, and the nut. They are presently looking at a composite fingerboard for future use. I saw where everything is made. They are very proud to be produced in the United States. I saw the guitar being built. I saw the molds. I saw how they made the braces. I am so excited that they are made here in Lafayette. Also I got to see where they are moving to. They will be in a bigger building downtown. I wish them great success because they make an excellent guitar, the WHOLE guitar....Paul Hebert |
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Location: Ct./ USA | Ovation can produce a cheep grahite composit gutiar. We need a new clean room, an autoclave, a winder for graphite some stage 2 graphite, we could experiment with kevlar, injection moulding requires a very big press for solid objects like necks with a k-bar. We could mould a graphite bowl including a neck block, and neck as one peace, then use a walnut fingerboard, veener, the possibilities are endless..........Compitition is great, we all need it! |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | I am not asking Ovation to make a "cheap" composite guitar. I am asking two questions. Will is sound as good as my Adamas? Why does it cost so much????????....Paul Hebert |
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Location: NJ | I think you answered your own questions. You said it did sound as good as your Adamas so there is one problem solved.
As for cost. Why does Becks cost more than Bud? Why do Rolls Royce cost more than Kia?
Why does an HP computer cost more than a generic?
why does Skippy peanut butter cost more than generic?
why does Prozac cost more than the generic equivalent?
I am just an idiot that sells gear and have never taken any business courses and have questionable business practices (according to some) but it makes perfect sense to me. REPUTATION means a whole lot. Ovation has a reputation for being a quality instrument and can charge what it needs to cover the cost of the production of the instrument.
I am constantly amazed that Harley owners will pay way over list price to get a bike when you can walk into a bmw, Indian, Honda, Victory, dealership and ride out on a bike usually cheaper and on the same day. But because Harley has the reputation they can demand the price. Is their machine any better or cost any more to make? not necessarily but their reputation demands the price.
PRS and les Paul guitars are very expensive. I can get you in a similar Hamer that has a KILLER top and plays way better than a PRS or Les Paul for way less money. Why? because Hamer does not have the same mystique (sp) about it as Givsung and PMS.
Ultimately the consumer decides the value. If no one buys one then it is not going to sell. If they sell even a handfull then they are a success.
I can buy a rachet set in sears or one from snap on. The snap one is probably 3 times more expensive than the craftsman. both very good tools, both work fine. When I want to sell the snap on it will be gone quickly Everyone wants to belong to the snap on club. The craftsman club has tons more members.
Ovation makes an elite T they make an Adamas both are guitars both should be the same price if I use your logic.
sorry for being so long winded but this price question annoys me. |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Everyone makes great points here (as usual). And also, as usual, there is no single "correct" answer. That's the great thing about this board. Al is correct that in the end the buyers wallets will do the speaking. Ovation does have a great and long (vs. CA) reputation as an innovative and leading edge developer of guitars and that's worth something tangible to a lot of buyers. But it's not impossible for CA to succeed. Just look at history. How dare Honda think they can make a car and compete with the massive iron of Detroit. How could a cheap maker of Japanese 'junk' like Sony ever expect to go head to head in the TV market with Philco and Sylvania. Make no mistake, I am proud to be an avid Ovation 'nut' and would love for the Q to turn out to be the most sought after, best sounding, and best playing acoustic guitar - period. But I must admit that I am just a little intrigued by the fact that for the same money as a Q, I could get a CA and with the left over change get an Elite, a Custom Legend, and maybe a Mando as well. Hmmmm... I think I really need to try one of these CA's.
Dave
PS - I can't run their flash website. Anyone know if they have a non-flash version? |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Paul, i for one completely understand your exitement over the CA guitar..I played one recently and was blown away by the sound..These guys are here to stay and i see them outselling rainsong soon..They are a much better sounding guitar than Rainsong.I know this first hand now as i took a Rainsong in on a trade yesterday..I think it was the "composite gods" punishing met!! After all here i am wanting a CA guitar and i wind up with a Rainsong...DAMN IT!!
Although the Rainsong is much better than others i have played in the past,it is clearly not close in sound with the CA guitar... |
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Location: RI. That small State out East | Maybe being "Ovation blind" I have not seen a CA guitar. Have they been around? I just spent some time on there web site. Do they have dealers in the North East? All this talk of it sounding as good as.... I'd like to check it out.
I know we have OFC members that work at the factory. Have you played the CA? Is the "hype" real? Interested in other opinions.
Woz |
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Location: NJ | While I strongly agree with the school of thought that Ovation should persue the R&D needed to produce the "Q" and that it should be a much-sought-after "hallmark" in the Ovation line (and I hope that it's a HUGE success!), I can see some validity to the things that Paul H. had to say.
If there was EVER anyone who should have had the insight and the where-with-all to produce an all-composite guitar, it should have been Ovation! Five years ago (or whatever it was) the Q was introduced and then taken back. Not a good sign.
Seven years in the making and they still can't seem to get it "right". In the interim, companies like RainSnot come along and introduce an all-graphite guitar. Not an overtly great sounding guitar (an opinion I'm ashamedly basing on what I've read here - I've never played one), but nonetheless they've garnered the reputation of being a (if not THE) pre-eminent composite guitar manufacturer. Say what you may about them, but these things ARE selling, and they're receiving favorable reviews and placing prominent ads in ACOUSTIC guitar magazines, and have acquired some decent endorsees.
Along comes a relatively new "Young Turk" company out of Louisiana that seems (according to some here) to have been able to do what RainSnot (and as of yet Ovation) haven't in building a GOOD SOUNDING composite guitar at a somewhat reasonable price.
HOW and WHY does this happen? How does an "innovative" guitar company who's so closely tied to the aviation/aeronautics industry get "out-innovated" by an upstart company relatively new to the industry? Complacency?
Perhaps the hungry little innovative guitar company that USED to show up unexpectedly at soundchecks laden with guitars to sniff around for an endorsement, has become a fat, lazy international corporation that's transfixed on developing a better bottom line through Korean imports and doesn't see (or care about) the new, hungry little innovative guitar companies that're beating them at their own game.
How many units (at $6K+) will have to be sold to recoup seven years of R&D). Will they EVER sell that many?
Don't get me wrong. I sincerely hope that the Q is a HUGE technological marvel and commercial success! But in seven years of research, the only techno advance that carried over into the current production lines has been the woven top on the Adamases.
The "Q" will be an expensive, techonological "Holy Grail" of guitars. I really hope that it is. That'd really cool. It would finally give Ovation back some of the respect that it had years ago and has since lost. But. . .the the vast majority of players/buyers won't be able to afford it. And companies like C-A, that can make a great sounding alternative at an affordable price, will have done what they haven't been able to. |
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Location: SoCal | One thing to keep in mind about the years of R&D on the Q (and this is true of any company that does R&D), the things learned on the Q undoubtedly show up on other guitars, whether we realize it or not. The research is almost always worth it. |
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Location: Atlanta,Ga. | Paul(moody)i think the reverse is happening with what you say...Although Ovation began with the "Q" seven years ago,probably way before CA guitars was even a thought to its owners.Ovation has two or three CA guitars on their test bench to be analized and i'll bet CA guitars has no "Q' at their factory..So, i would have to respectfully disagree with what you say about seven years of Q developement finding their way onto other guitars..I think its the oposite in my opinion! |
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Location: SoCal | Sam, your point is well taken, but I was referring to other Ovation guitars that have probably benefited from the Q research, not other manufacturers. |
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Location: The Shop | I wish everybody could make up thier minds around here!One post says where are the expensive Ovations?We build expensive nobody buys! Then we are working on gettng one out and than it is why is this guitar so expensive?I wish you all could see how this instrument is built.I dont know why it is taking so long to go public, but dont you want the best guitar possible from us?This guitar blows away the CA guitar in looks,sound- even now!It is a piece of art nevermind an instrument!I know Iam biased since I work for Ovation,but ah what the hell buy the best guitar you can afford and the one that you feel is best for you :confused: |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | CMS-MAN, I will have to see if the Q blows away the CA guitar. I must admit, I find that hard to believe. One thing I do believe, is that it's price will BLOW! Hey I am a huge Ovation fan, they are the only acoustic guitar I have use for ovr 20 years. And I have praised my Adamas a million times one here. I just really find it hard to believe that the Q will be thousands of dollars better than the CA guitar. And I have never seen a guitar so well received by long time Ovation fans as the CA guitar. One more question, when will the Q finally be available?...Paul Hebert |
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Location: SoCal | cms-man:
You're taking these discussions way too personally. First, everybody here is an Ovation fan. When we talk like we do, it's with a desire to see Ovation put out not just a great guitar, but to have the respect of players because Ovation puts out great guitars.
When you say that why can't everybody make up their minds, well hell, I can't even get my wife and kids to agree with me, let alone a thousand people.
Ovation did have an expensive guitar, the Adamas. But I'll be damned if I can recall an advertising for it from about 1992 forward. All the advertising was for the less expensive models. You can't expect people to buy what they don't know about.
As for the Q, I think that most people are frustrated that it's not out yet. It might be, hell, it probably is better than the CA. But nobody knows. All we know is that it almost came out 5 or 6 years ago for more money than any Ovation, and was then pulled back in. What are people supposed to think? We certainly don't have enough information for an informed opinion. |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | CMS-MAN, I sure don't want it to seem like I am attacking you are any Ovation employee. I just don't care for alot of the current Ovation guitars. Seems this "Get Plugged in" stuff means the guitar sounds great plugged in, but not so good unplugged. I keep waiting for Ovation to bring back the great sounding deep bowl models. Please make it an acoustic guitar first!..Paul Hebert |
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Location: SoCal | The current crop of Ovation guitars is excellent. The mid depth Legend, Custom Legend, Elite, and even th S771 Balladeer are wonderful guitars. If something happened to my old 1537, I'd consider buying one of those before any other manufacturer's guitar. |
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Location: The Shop | Pual H. You keep mentioning the great deep bowl and how you wish we would bring it back,well you can get any type of guitar you want from Ovation,if you are willing to pay for it!You want a deep bowl,order it.You want an Adamas1 order it.We will BUILD ANYTHING YOU WANT just order it!
Back to the Q i now it is hard to belive in it when you cant see it and I have no clue when it will be ready or why it is not ready. |
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Location: SoCal | You know, Ovation could be the greatest guitar company in the world selling inexpensive and very expensive guitars if they would just listen to me. Like my wife won't. And my kids won't. And my dogs won't. And my friends and clients won't..... |
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Location: The Shop | ;) |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I just have to toss this anecdote in. I love the analogies that Al made why "name recognition" is so important and a part of the price. He mentioned the Harley / Victory (and others) theme...
Q: Is Harley 10K more bike than a Victory?
A: NO.
Q: Is Harley more "made in USA"?
N: NO NOT EVEN CLOSE.
Q: Do Harley riders constantly tell folks (when asked) that they think Victory is a great bike.
A: If they test drove one, they usually think it's a great bike, and usually think it rides better than their Harley!
Q: So... Why did you buy a Harley?
A: Because it's a Harley silly !!!!!
I have this conversation several times a month, or basically ANYTIME I run into a Harley owner.
Same thing happens with guitars. From what I have seen Hamer blows away PRS and Gibson for overall quality, fit/finish, tone, support, etc.. but the PRS and Gibsons are many times more expensive.
A few important items about the "Q". It's not just a composite guitar. It's GRAPHITE. That justifies an increase in cost right there. I would guess the "Q" will outperform the CA just based on one simple fact. The "Q" is a roundback. I can see no advantage to buying a guitar where most of the sound is going to bounce around the inside of a square box in the corners. I know there are a lot of non-round guitars out there, but frankly, since Ovation came on the scene, I don't get it. I have learned much about acoustics in the process of designing several acoustic spaces. I have no where near the experience of the designers of either Ovation or CA, however I do know that in acoustics there is at least one "rule" and that is corners are bad, evil and should be avoided at all cost. A standard "box" guitar must make compensations to accomodate the corners, a roundback makes compensations to take advantage of not having corners.
Site unseen, I would guess that at worst the "CA" may have equal sound quality (tone) to the "Q" depending on taste. But I fail to see how it could possibly have the projection or consistancy across the entire scale as ANY decent "roundback". |
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Location: Scotland | If you want to discuss acoustic design, the other reason a roundback is theoretically "better" is that any structure which has parrallel surfaces will set up standing waves. In a flatback guitar these standing waves will cause the wavelengths related to the box dimensions to be accentuated or attenuated, depending on the phase of the standing wave. This is an over-simplification, but the numerous standing waves set up by a parabolic structure mean that they are not focused on just one or two frequencies & consequently have less of an influence on the final sound. Take a look at the console end of a properly designed modern recording studio control room: It's parabolic. |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Mile, I have to agree with you on the round back. My Adamas has always been the best guitar in the world to me. I know the top has alot to do with it's tone, but the roundback does it's share also. The Adamas is just the perfect guitar to me. I can sing it's praise forever!..Paul Hebert |
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Location: San Bernardino, California | One time Maccaferri cut the back off an acoustic guitar in order to prove to another luthier that the sound is generated by the front of the guitar. I wonder how it sounded? |
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| Have you ever played your Ovation without the back hole cover in place? I have (checking for buzzes after adjusting the neck) and it makes a world of difference. Just that 4 inch hole cover removed ruins the sound of the guitar. Tim |
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Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | i just got home, ears still ringing, and ran across this thread. sorry it stopped with the time ticking on the Q. i hope to test both of these carbon fiber guitars someday and i'm convinced by the sound of your posts amigos, that i'm in store for something different.
one thing that i might have trouble with is if there is little human contact with them in the manufacturing process and they reflect that in their design will they feel as good as the great handmade ovations i have grown to feel a part of.
maybe its a bunch of woo- woo stuff, but i really feel a connection with and the people that make things and not the machines. i think it affects the music i play, and to me that is "it". on that note i'm dead tired-------buenas noches companeros |
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Composite Acoustic guitar blows me away!