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October 2005
Posts: 5331
Location: Cicero, NY | Question for the population at large...I know that tube amps are and probably always have been (or at least since the advent of solid state anyway) preferred among electric players for their tone, warmth, etc. Is that the same for acoustic players? Does the tube bring on the same, or at least better (if you can quantify "better"), response if you're playing acoustically or does playing acoustically really lessen the effect somehow? And I've played a Tak cool tube and absolutely love the sound, so was that just colored expectations? Seems like most of the current acoustic amps are SS unless I'm misreading them. If you're looking for a good acoustic guitar players amp, do you still look for a tube amp? Inquiring minds need to know... | |
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Joined:
March 2008
Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | Generally speaking, tubes are better for solidbodies, solid state for acoustics. BUT, it's all subjective. Go with what sounds best to YOU. You might want to take a friend shopping. Ask for their opinion. It would be even better if they have the same "attack" as you do. If their playing sounds a lot like yours acousticly, have them plug in and play for you while you stand at a distance and listen. | |
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Joined:
October 2005
Posts: 4067
Location: Utah | We tried a bunch of acoustic amps before buying, and every one was solid state. Some sounded good, some not. The one we bought has a very natural acoustic sound to me.
That doesn't really answer your question about tube amps, but it seems that solid state is fine for acoustics.
Part of what is nice with tube amps for electric guitars is distortion. The tubes provide different harmonics than solid state, making it sound warmer. Bipolar transistors simply clip the top off of the wave, making it square and harsh. Tubes distort the shape but don't clip. Plus, tubes have a compressor effect. I would guess that an acoustic guitar pushed to distortion would sound better through a tube amp (or Field Effect Transistor solid state amp). | |
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April 2004
Posts: 13303
Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Weazy....if you looking for an acoustic amp, look no farther than the AAD CUB. Small size, great sound and probably as loud as you need.
I have one, the Professor has one, I pretty sure Temp has one.....maybe Cliff...probably even more if they chime in. | |
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Joined:
May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Question for the population at large...I know that tube amps are and probably always have been (or at least since the advent of solid state anyway) preferred among electric players for their tone, warmth, etc. Is that the same for acoustic players?
Not exactly true. There was a period of time in the 70's when tubes were considered unreliable and backward. I have to agree though, in general a nice clean tube amp is superior to ss. But not always, and there are some nice SS that hold up real well. But you asked about acoustic players and I'd say it depends.
Does the tube bring on the same, or at least better (if you can quantify "better"), response if you're playing acoustically or does playing acoustically really lessen the effect somehow?
No, just check out an AAD.
And I've played a Tak cool tube and absolutely love the sound, so was that just colored expectations?
No, the tube warms up the signal. Check out some of the old SS? FET pre amps from ovation, they make a deliciously warm sound. Do they still make them anymore?
Seems like most of the current acoustic amps are SS unless I'm misreading them.
Actually, I don't know, but it's not a problem.
If you're looking for a good acoustic guitar players amp, do you still look for a tube amp?
No. check out AAD, fender, genz bens, pignose and a few others. | |
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Joined:
March 2008
Posts: 2683
Location: Hot Springs, S.D. | I like Crate amps. Just always liked the way they sound. I have two, one being an acoustic amp. When I plugged my new classical guitar in to the acoustic amp, I was expecting it to sound great. It didn't. The amp amplified the string noise (squeek squeek) so much that it sounded terrible! So I plugged it into the GT30, and it sounded exactly like it did unplugged, only louder. My black Legend sounds great through either amp, and I would sell the acoustic, except it has a mike input that my "kids" use. Don't really know what this has to do with anything, but if anyone has any experience with classical guitars plugged in, maybe they could let me know. (Should I have started another thread? Sorry.) | |
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Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | The most important thing is that the amp. is well constructed/well built , period.
A transistor is a chemical electric switch , ergo , it`s the circuit which is the amplifier.
A Valve/Tube is a Voltage amplifier , i.e an amp. on it`s own , the rest is there to make it fit to whatever , when we look at the characteristics of valves , we can see that said characteristics change , and that happens fast , so fast , that certain makes " burn in " the amp. for say , 20 - 50 hrs , after which valves stabilize , actually it keeps on changing , but very gradually , so a competent designer would take that into consideration , typically , the bass will rol-off a bit , treble will roll-off much more , hence the famous " warm valve sound " , so , in reality , the sound of valves will vary over time , whereas a transistor amp. will keep it`s sound until it breaks.
I would like nothing better than to discuss technicalities , but doubt that , apart from flysig and perhaps mr.O and me , anyone would care ( where are iffy and numby ? )
Vic
..Single-ended amps. in Triode -mode are theoretically the best...valve or transistor.. | |
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December 2006
Posts: 6268
Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Vic et al,
I've been out of the audio reproduction circuitry genre way too long to be of major assistance to the membership in selecting an amp.
But your points of 'break in' and then the subsequent roll-off over time due to tube/valve, umm let's say 'element depletion' (plate, cathode , grids and heaters) are dead on. That warm tube sound is actually a designed 'wear factor'. I won't even get into dynamic range and compression...
In fact some tube manufacturers used to (not sure about nowadays) 'break in' the tubes, much like breaking in a car engine. That's not even considering 'matching' tubes/valves/solid state preamp/output devices.
We can really get buried in theory/specs/etc. and never answer anyones' questions. I say the bottom line is to take your favorite instrument and plug it into every amp you find. I hope ya'll have lot of time due to 'playing around' with ALL the settings combinations to find THAT SOUND you're seeking.
Keep in mind that ALL electronics, much like guitars, are nothing more than a matrix of compromises. Physics can be a frustrating mistress!
Oh yeah, final point, just buy what sounds good until ya find something that sounds better... and then offer up the ol' one on the OFC! :D | |
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December 2001
Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | one of my favorite acoustic rigs is the goove tubes bass preamp (tube preamp) with an old urei power amp bridged into a single jbl 15 | |
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April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Iffy : " Oh yeah, final point, just buy what sounds good until ya find something that sounds better... "
What..?..with what money , ya` want me to rob a bank ?..
What gave ye` that idea ....?
Arthur`s Wine -Course ?.. :cool:
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alpep : " one of my favorite acoustic rigs is the goove tubes bass preamp (tube preamp) with an old urei power amp bridged into a single jbl 15 "
Are we dragging loudspeakers into this now ..?
My ALTEC `s have Bigger Magnets than yous JBL`s :)
Vic | |
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Joined:
December 2006
Posts: 6268
Location: Florida Central Gulf Coast | Originally posted by HumblePie aka Solid Top:
What..?..with what money , ya` want me to rob a bank ?.. Vic,
What's the status of that super amp you were designing/building from surplus F-104 attack radar parts? If you wait long enough you might get some F-16 avionic parts when the RDAF gets the new F-35! :D | |
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April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | There`s a crisis going on , I do not mean the world one , but the one that soars up , every time my sweet better half trips over an amp. that should`ve been fixed long ago..
Vic
..but when I get hold of an F-4 with Tetrodes in pristine condition.. :cool: | |
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August 2005
Posts: 3736
Location: Sunshine State, Australia | Someone once told me (a long, long, long time ago) that bass amps made for good acoustic amps.
Is there any truth to that? | |
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February 2007
Posts: 302
Location: Nashville, TN | My 2 cents is this..I've played thru, tried & owned Fenders, Riveras, Matchless, Marshalls, Yamaha's, Z's, etc..they all sound the same to me..a tube breaks up, that's what they do. Even @ low volume, tubes compress..that's what some guys like..I prefer a good solid state amp with a lot of headroom..if I want the amp to breakup, I'll use a pedal or pedal combination..I own a number of the Peavey 400 series amps..Session, LA, Nashville, Vegas & the 1000. They're all very clean & produce the actual sound of the 'instrument' playing thru it....I like the ProCo Rat & some of the Boss pedals & modded pedals for distortion & or overdrive...these are my preferences..:-)
PS..I like the Peavey & Trace Elliott acoustic amps, but prefer to play an acoustic/electric thru a PA.. | |
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March 2005
Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho | Muzza, my wife was told the same thing and bought me a small bass practice amp. It works fine for an acoustic amp. I haven't used it much, but I don't use the other amps much either. I hear myself fine. | |
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December 2006
Posts: 6995
Location: Jet City | Originally posted by HumblePie aka Solid Top:
What..?..with what money , ya` want me to rob a bank ? Vic, I didn't think banks in the US or Europe had any money left to steal.
I think Vonnegut had it dead on with Galapagos. Prepare to wear fur. SS vs tube amps won't matter anymore. | |
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Joined:
April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Originally posted by muzza:
Someone once told me (a long, long, long time ago) that bass amps made for good acoustic amps.
Is there any truth to that? Specially the open -back variety , Fender`s Bassman for example , I can see two reasons for that :
1 ) In order to radiate low(ish) frequencies a bass -amp. puts out lots of current , ensuring a good " grip " on the speaker.
2 ) Unlike the speaker intended for Electric guitar , which will have a strong peak around 3 - 4 KiloHerz , a ( good ) speaker for a bass cab. is one that has a straight freq. curve , 12 incher`s can crawl up to 5 KHz. , the Acoustic goes up to about that , so yes , not a bad idea. ( yet , Dan `s idea is better ) :)
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DanSchafer , I`ve immensely enjoyed yer vid`s :)
Vic | |
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April 2006
Posts: 2491
Location: Copenhagen Denmark | Damon67 : " Vic, I didn't think banks in the US or Europe had any money left to steal."
So , what scam do ya propose .. :cool:
Vic | |
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January 2006
Posts: 5881
Location: Colorado Rocky Mountains | I go back and forth on this. As Stephen suggests, the AAD Cub is solid state and a great amp for most small acoustic gigs. I use mine as a monitor. I prefer small amps these days as handling heavy stuff is just wasted energy, particulary when you don't need the power. That said, I really like the Genz Acoustic Pro. It is a 200-watt solid state amp with a tube preamp. This tube preamp feature might address your question because it can be dialed in from zero to 100%. You can have as much or as little tube preamp as you want. Spending time dialing this through the range will give you some idea of the tone value of the tube feature. The 100% solid state sounds great, but the tube adds noticeable warmth and depth, so I prefer to keep the tube dialed in at 100% all the time. | |
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January 2006
Posts: 1128
Location: NW Washington State | I've got a lot of tubes, tube hi-fi, and oddball tube guitar amps in my garage (I'd work on them if there were any space left). I've got a couple of old Roland FET preamps that I really like, and some little onboard FET preamps I made years ago. I like IC opamps because they're easy to work with.
But... I don't think it matters much what's in the amp. A tube amp can be clean, a solid state amp can have nice smooth distortion. As others have said, try amps from quality manufacturers and pick one you like. Make sure it has a good warranty and return policy.
I do think that speakers are overlooked. If you believe you've found your favorite amp, try it with different extension speakers (disabling the internal speaker). You might be surprised how much difference the speaker makes. An amp you didn't like might sound great with a new speaker.
-Steve W. | |
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December 2006
Posts: 6995
Location: Jet City | Hey Steve!
Speaking of all that stuff in the garage, you ever find that Mouse? | |
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Joined:
January 2006
Posts: 1128
Location: NW Washington State | Damon, it's in there somewhere. I'm away and will start my fall chores next week. Got to do something for Woody and then tackle the outdoor projects. Amps might slip into next year...
-Steve W. | |
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December 2003
Posts: 13996
Location: Upper Left USA | Hmmm... maybe an OFC Work Party, BBQ, Garage Sale and Retreat is in order? | |
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March 2005
Posts: 12759
Location: Boise, Idaho | I have 2 extra spaces in my garage, a basement with a small shop or workroom and a bunch of other space. Free storage for any projects that are somewhat playable. If anyone wants to hide guitars or amps from spouse, just send them over. If I have enough of those, I might sneak one in for myself. | |
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Joined:
December 2006
Posts: 6995
Location: Jet City | Originally posted by MWoody:
Hmmm... maybe an OFC Work Party, BBQ, Garage Sale and Retreat is in order? i'll bring the wine | |
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May 2003
Posts: 4389
Location: Capital District, NY, USA Minor Outlying Islands | Mark,
I wished you lived closer! A guitar refuge! | |
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December 2001
Posts: 7233
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | "....tube amps are and probably always have been preferred among electric players for their tone, warmth, etc."
The difference between tube and solid-state has been discussed, but I think "purpose" is a huge factor and people's individual purposes cloud the explanations to those who have different purposes.
When I play an electric guitar, the purpose of the amp is not just to amplify the sound of the guitar. It in fact is part of the sound. I not only prefer tube amps, but I prefer the sound of EL34 tubes vs 6L6.
When I play an acoustic guitar through an amplifier, I want the amplified signal to sound as close to the sound of the Acoustic guitar unplugged as possible, hence a solid state amp.
Some electric players (self included sometimes) go for the "Hybrid" route. Using a "tube" pre-amp a solid-state power amp. In this scenario, the purpose of the "pre-amp" can be thought of as an "effect". Natural breakup, overdrive, character, whatever. It's assisting in "creating" the final sound or tone, not reproducing one.
For an acoustic player the hybrid setup works much the same. Usually not going for full on distortion, but rather the subtle nuances of using a tube add character to the tone. Again, it's an affect. Warming up the sound, maybe making it more pleasing etc..
Now can you use a tube amp to just "amplify" an acoustic guitar, reproducing its unplugged sound. Yes, sortof, but why bother? A high-end tube amp, will do a pretty good job of reporduction, at least good enough where your ears can't tell the difference. But at what cost. Really.. And I know as someone is reading this they are going to say "well the tubes make it sound warmer".... BINGO!!!! As soon as you want to "sound warmer" you are no longer reproducing the unplugged sound, your producing your unplugged sound warmer.
So... bottom line.
If you want to reproduce the sound of your guitar, as it sounds unplugged. Use a solid-state amp. Less expensive, less fuss, easier to move, less maintenance etc...
If you want to use your guitar to create a big full warm sounding guitar when amplified. A tube or hybrid amp may be what you are looking for.
As I put in another post recently, this is all a rather new observation for me on why I like Ovation guitars. I like the sound unplugged, and want that sound reproduced when amplified, uncolored.
While the Bose L1 system is an amazing amplifier for use with Ovation guitars, I wonder how wood guitar folks feel about it? My guess is they'd rather use their trusty California Blonde which can take $9.99 (ABC Store Hawaii) Ukulele and make it sound amazing, because it's NOT just reproducing the sound.
It's description reads
"with the warmth and ability to reproduce the natural tones and characteristics of electric/acoustic instruments"
but should read,
"with the ability to produce warm natural tones and characteristics from electric/acoustic instruments"
JMHO | |
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Joined:
December 2006
Posts: 6995
Location: Jet City | mmmm Bose L1.... *drool* | |
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Tube vs SS amps