|
|
Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 12
| Hi all,
I think I may have a factory proto-type of the Ovation Breadwinner. Possibly one of you Guru's can add some insight.
I aquired the guitar from a friend in the early 70's. It belonged to his older brother who worked in "some guitar place" when they lived in Conneticut. ( I was 18 at the time ). His brother ended up MIA in Vietnam , so his Dad lets "us kids" have it for our "band". We had no idea who Ovation was, all we knew was it was a really "cool" looking guitar, and played a whole lot better than our Silvertones.
Here is why I think it might be a proto-type.
It was brand new , but had no case, just an Ovation guitar box
It DOES NOT have the pre-amp built into it and was never routed to hold one either.
It use's the pick-ups and bridge from a Tornado hollowbody which Ovation was discontinuing at the same time the "production" Breadwinner was released. ( the tailpice on this guitar is just a simple stop bar)
The neck plate is just plain steel and not engraved like production Breadwinners. It has NO serial number on it.
It "had" the black textured finish when I got it....I sanded it off and painted the guitar ..... hey what did I know !! I was only 18 years old LOL
It never had the Ovation logo decal on the headstock.
I have talked to Mike Orenstein who is the man who actually designed the Breadwinner body in 1971 when he work in the graphic art department. He told me he made the original sketches in 1971, and handed them to engineering, but left Ovation before the guitar was put into production. ( 1972... a year latter )
So...... It is my theory that Mike designed the body , and Ovation made a mock-up ( or maybe a few mock-ups ? ) and then used what ever parts they had lying around to test it ( the Tornado pick-ups and bridge to be exact ). From there Ovation decided it was "a go" and designed the pre-amp and the "trapizoid" bridge for thier new "radical" guitar, and either let employees have the factory proto-types or sold them to employees.
I guess my questons are:
Would it have been common pratice for Ovation to use "left over" parts when designing a guitar ? And would have the employees had "first crack" at the "test" models ? ( Gheesh I hope this guitar wasn't a case of employee theft !! never thought of that!!! )
There is no question that this guitar is indeed a Breadwinner , but if it's not a proto-type , maybe someone can tell me what the heck it is or why it was built.
Sorry for the long post.... feel free to email me privately at WLBBS@CITLINK.NET , if you don't want to post a public response.
Rick |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15676
Location: SoCal | Interesting story. Do you have any pics of it that you could post? |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 12
| Can't figgure out how to post pictures here or how big the file can be..
I posted some pic's here if you want a look..
http://www.citlink.net/~wlbbs/breadwinner
If someone can tell me how to upload pics here , I'll be glad to post them.
Rick |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Very, very interesting. I've already spoken to Rick about his guitar & suggested it may be one of the Partridge Family "props" Bill? Sam? Miles?
I'd say this is 100% genuine, the pickups are Schallers as used on late model Tornado/Eclipse.
The lack of a battery rout may also indicate the guitar's intention as a prop rather than a prototype. Either way this is a nice piece of Ovation history. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3650
Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Jeez, talk about esoteric. Hat's off to you, Mr. Templeton; you are a true scholar! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3650
Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire | Ohmigosh. Sorry Mr. TempleMAN; it's really late on a Friday. I've only been reading your posts for about a year now. A bit suspicious of incipient dementia.......... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Definately not dementia (yet) it happens so often I'm considering changing my name officially to Templeton. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 12
| I agree with you Paul , but like we talked about... I know the guitar came from Conneticut to NY state ( where I aquired it ) and never went "to the coast"..... very possible it was a "prop" and never shipped..... ??? I don't know
SO..... here's the real "guru" question then ....
Does anybody know for sure when exactly "Keith Partridge" actually started using a Breadwinner in the show ????
I know Ovation was "sponsering" the show , and I still watch it sometimes, just to druel over some of those vintage amps from Ovation, and especially the Bass that "Danny" couldn't play even if he was a robot.
So if this was a "prop" .... when would of it been produced ??? as far as the show using it for a prop ?? ( heck if it is a prop... NICE PROP !!! IT ROCKS !!! LOL.......
I'm gonna rip the pick gaurd off this sucker tonite , and see if the "pots" are dated.... I know they came with the guitar and are original.... maybe they will add something to this....
One more thing that might ??? help .... the guy I got the guitar from , engraved his initials on the neck plate with one of those Ace hardware engravers. Those initials are E. M.
I will "assume" his brother who worked for Ovation has the same last name too.
Bummer..... I can't remember Eddie's last name now... but I do remember it was kind of an Italian name...
Maybe his brother was a woodworker... or a "test pilot / musician" ??? I don't know , but the time frame would have been around the time the Breadwinner was on the drawing board.
Rick
Originally posted by Paul Templeman:
Very, very interesting. I've already spoken to Rick about his guitar & suggested it may be one of the Partridge Family "props" Bill? Sam? Miles?
I'd say this is 100% genuine, the pickups are Schallers as used on late model Tornado/Eclipse.
The lack of a battery rout may also indicate the guitar's intention as a prop rather than a prototype. Either way this is a nice piece of Ovation history. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Rick, the term "prop" is derived from the word "property" I was not intending to be derogatory, but merely putting your guitar's existance into a (possible) context. I'm sure Bill will be able to clear this up in seconds flat. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 12
| Oh..... dont worry about the "prop" thing Paul.... I undestand exactly what you meant !
I have a feeling with "kids" like "Danny" and that blonde chick, that Ovation might have made a bunch a props for them rather than sacrifice the "real thing" hahaahehaheh...
Anyway..... I ripped the pickgaud off..... and the "pots" are no help at all..... no date code to be seen.... one pot you can barely make out 500K on it still..... thats about it....
Back to square one ..... ???
Rick |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 12
| I just wanted to say Thanks for all the private replys..... but really ..... the guitar is not for sale..... I'm just really courious about what you guys think it might be.... To this day it is STILL one of my favorite guitars and unless ya have a Ga-zillion dollars cash..... well it isn't for sale.... !!! LOL
This sucker plays great and put's any "strat" to shame..... so if you can tell me what
a Ga-zillion dollars really is.... then maybe we can talk turkey...
Rick |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | Like everyone else, love those pickups and the design. They should have went with that concept, they were 30 years ahead of their time, that thing probably wails. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | It's a partridge. They were all made at the same time on the production line and worked so they weren't dummy props. I doubt they used the sound on the show. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | God has spoken, thank you CWKII, we could go on forever if it wasn't for your input. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 12
| Thank you all for your ideas and input...
but now a few questions for CKW2....
Any "guess-ta-mate" of how many might have been produced ???
Were employee's back then able to purchase these guitar's or maybe given to them as a "perk" ???
( or is it possibly stolen ???)
Any idea why mine never had the Ovation logo on the headstock ??? I could understand "that" if it was a "reject" , but this insturment is far from a reject.... it rock's.... even 30 years latter...
A simple question of my "strange" Breadwinner , has really got my couristy up now.... any insite you can share CWK2 will be appreciated....
Rick |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 12
| Originally posted by Bailey:
Like everyone else, love those pickups and the design. They should have went with that concept, they were 30 years ahead of their time, that thing probably wails.
Wails ??..... you got it partner........ 30 years ahead of it's time ??.... you got it partner
I have a 1st year release Preacher and also a Viper... this B-winner puts both of them to shame...... even with thier "dual coil" pick-ups.... If I busted the neck in two tomarrow.... I'd salvage those pick-ups.... no questions asked....... |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | The Schaller pickups used on the Tornados are particularly powerful. I've just aquired a Thunderhead with DeArmonds & my Tornado blows it away in terms of output. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | Very few partridges made. 1 to 2 dozen all inclusive of the breadweinners and basses. No logo so it wouldn't show up on TV (as if it would) not sure why they did this.
After the show some of them came back to the factory. I guess an employee could have bought one but at that time to be given one of these as a "perk" wasn't much. The partridges were on the same level as whale spoo. Maybe if they paid you to take one you would. They could have slid out the door too, who knows. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7233
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I think there may be a longevity issue in play on the pickups of the Thunderhead and Tornado. I have a Thunderhead that has GREAT tone and they are reasonably hot, but this guitar looks barely played, and I have other Thunderheads that sound a little weak, even after cleaning the connections on the inside. I notice the Tornados and Eclipse guitars are nice, hot, and very consistant, no matter the condition... within reason of course. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Possibly, magnets may fade over time but DC resistance doesn't, and it's mostly the number of turns and gauge of wire that determines output. The DeArmonds are probably inconsistent from pickup to pickup, as were many pickups from that era. I expected to prefer the pickups on the T-head but the Tornado definately has more guts |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 12
| I have played the guitar plently over the years , but not exclusivley , or it would be wore out by now..... but
This guitar is a little "dangerous" to play too.
The bridge it uses from the Tornado is like 25 little saw teeth .... which is fine on a hollowbody because you naturally play them more gentle to start with..... but with this bridge on a solid body , a few Pete Townsed windmill chords and your hand can look like hamburgur in nothing flat !!
Lets just say the guitar looks wicked , sounds wicked , and can truly be wicked.... it demands respect or it will punish you. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | Glad you like it |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 12
| Very sorry to say I have had to put this guitar up for sale now. I'm 50 years old and I guess too much rock-n-roll has caught up with me.... like in the form of some surgery --
And OF COURSE !! my "HMO" doesn't cover but about a 1/3 of the cost.... so I need the greenbacks.
I'm sure it will make someone happy to aquire it, but it breaks my heart ( whats left of it )..... Its on Ebay this week...ends 8/16/03 if any of you collectors are interested
Rick |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 194
Location: Las Vegas | Hi Rick-
Darn, you would have really had something there if you'd left it original. As it is, you've got a Partridge that's completely unrecognizable as a Partridge and almost unrecognizable as an Ovation.
Good luck with it, but I for one (as a collector of Partridge-looking ovations) sure wish you'd left it original. I'd be interested but I'd be further ahead getting a stock stucco white and/or blue breadwinner.
By the way, what exactly was the original finish on this? The pictures and videos I have of the blue, white, and black Partridge breadwinners all had white pickguards. Of course, the prop department was free to mix and match.
Les
Originally posted by Rick Youngman:
Very sorry to say I have had to put this guitar up for sale now. I'm 50 years old and I guess too much rock-n-roll has caught up with me.... like in the form of some surgery --
And OF COURSE !! my "HMO" doesn't cover but about a 1/3 of the cost.... so I need the greenbacks.
I'm sure it will make someone happy to aquire it, but it breaks my heart ( whats left of it )..... Its on Ebay this week...ends 8/16/03 if any of you collectors are interested
Rick |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 12
| It was originally black and yes it does have the original white pickgaurd... I spray painted the top black to go with the maroon color..... in fact you can see where the paint is getting thin now ( see pics )
Yep... I have to agree with you too about leaving it original.... but what did I know when I was 19 years old ???? who would have guessed that it was more than just a cool looking-great sounding guitar...
The auction on Ebay died... never met the reserve which was only $ 450 bucks .... heck the case is worth a hundred bucks all by itself !! Oh well
I may just restore it now to "near" original.... I talked to the guy who sprays those "Rhino linings" in pickup beds... and he assures me that the stuff sticks better to wood then metal.... and I can personally attest to the fact that is the closest thing I have ever seen to the "texture" finish Ovation use's. ( used )
He said he'd charge me 20 bucks to coat it... thats cheaper than I could strip it and make it a natural wood finish even.
Anyway.... thanks for all your emails and stuff guys.... I'll have to decide wether I have to just dump the guitar or restore it .... but I do appreciate all the support. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 35
Location: Canton,GA | My God yes Bailey is right they should have went with that design and if they had we probably could not afford them now!! Because a breadwinner/deacon is one of the most unique rock n roll guitar shapes ever, and with a more solid bridge and simpler electronics and pickups man there would be all kinds of records with the big O's on them!!!!!!! Thank you for sharing this ICON with us!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7233
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I would call customer service and ask them if they would restore the finish. I don't think they would charge too much (Al might be able to get a qoute). Then it would really be "restored." |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Deaconstrat, I fail to see how a non-production guitar, cobbled together from spares & imported pickups and used by people who have been consigned to the "where are they now" file, could be classed as "Iconic".
Regardless of what you may think about the sound of the guitar, or for that matter the bridge design (which is perfectly solid) what makes the Breadwinner & Deacon interesting from a historical standpoint is the active circuitry. Without the preamp it's just a guitar with an interesting shape. I know this from personal experience. I own several Breadwinners & Deacons, my main stage slide guitar is a white Breadwinner where I've removed the pickups & preamp and replaced them with 3 Viper pickups. I use it because it makes a visual statement, is very comfortable to play & sounds great, but I could get the same sound from my Viper 3. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 35
Location: Canton,GA | Paul.... Chill!!!!!!! Whether we agree or not David Cassidy and the Partridges are an American Icon. A lot of teen and preteens watched this show and maybe before FM radio exposed them to different players in the back of their minds full of mush the shape and look of these Ovations stuck in their head,the look of Susan Dey stuck in mine!!! The reason Jimmy Page,Hendrix, Clapton, Marriott, didnt play them was due to the pickups feeding back at high gain settings,The backwards pickup selector switching and that totally useless (in most cases) phase switch and the bridge pieces that killed sustain. All of those guys were given these guitars and I am sure they loved the shape and the neck but face it they are not the most friendly sounding guitar plugged in a turned up fult tilt Marshall or Fender twin!! My hats are off to you if you can use the stock guitar and make music with it, its just that most us mere mortals cant!!!!!We want it to be just like a Les Paul, a strat or a tele.
Stock Deacons and Breadwinners sound fine for clean sounds and chords but blues-rock machines
they are not!IMHO!!!! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6202
Location: Phoenix AZ | Speaking of Susan Dey. Yes as a young teen I too was fasinated by the sight of her playing the organ (do you see where this is going?). Luckily there was just enough commercial break between the rolling Ovation credits at the end of "The Partridge Family" and the start of "The Courtship Of Eddie's Father", that I could make a quick trip to the bathroom. Anyway, fast forward to the spring of 2003 and the rerunion show of "L.A. Law." Well, um, hmmm ... There she was. Maybe she's 50 years old at the most, but looked like she could have been 80. I'm not usually one to criticize peoples looks as they "gracefully age", but I've got to tell you - this was a shocker. And believe me, there as NO trip to the locked bathroom necessary this time. Well, maybe all my dreams are not shot (no pun intended) - I heard that Phobe Piccalilly ("Nanny And The Professor") is still pretty hot. Dave |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | I find Deacons and Breadwinners to be totally unusable in a live situation & I aggree that they sound terrible with anything but mild distortion. They produce lots of useful clean sounds but the control layout & circuitry makes those sounds difficult to find quickly, so they're a nightmare onstage. I also find the lack of a treble roll-off a big problem. That's why I put Viper pickups in one of my Breads & pulled out the Pre. It absolutely screams for slide, but it's no longer a Breadwinner strictly speaking. I use my other stock Deacons regularly for recording because of the variety of cool clean sounds they can produce.
The Deacon/Breadwinner is interesting from a number of standpoints, notably the shape, the fact that it was Ovation's first original design solidbody & the fact that it was one of the first guitars to have active electronics (though Burns had active circuitry on the TR2 in the mid 60's) My point was simply that the production guitars were a dismal failure commercialy and consequently therefore in any iconolatry. A TV prop version would be an icon only to a fan of the show. Incidentally you referred to the TV prop guitar as Iconic, not the cast of The Partridge Family.
While a Breadwinner or Deacon with a pair of Seymour Duncan or whatever pickups & the preamp ripped out may be a good-sounding useful guitar for a player, to a collector it becomes a completely different thing. As for wanting your Breadwinner to be a Strat or a Les Paul, you'd get a better result by accepting it for what it does well, leaving it as it is and buying a Strat or a Les Paul. Or maybe even a Viper 3 or a UK2.
I'm perfectly chilled, incidentally. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 35
Location: Canton,GA | Paul forgive me for my poor choice of words in describing this guys Breadwinner. You and I are in perfect agreement regarding the stock guitars by the way. I got mine cause I wanted to have something I could use that would sound like me and look different you know the old what the hell is that thing. Anyway I have enjoyed the banter back and forth long live the O!!!!!!!!!! |
|
| |
|
Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 194
Location: Las Vegas | Originally posted by Mr. Ovation:
I would call customer service and ask them if they would restore the finish. I don't think they would charge too much (Al might be able to get a qoute). Then it would really be "restored."
You mean they might be able to re-do various stucco finishes after all these years? Now that's fantastic news, thanks!
Les
:) |
|
| |
|
Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | It's "bowl-paint" just the "spackle" finish they use on the acoustic bowls. They also used it on the Eclipse & currently on the Elite-T |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 1380
Location: Central Oregon | There's one of the spackled jobs over in Bend. I don't have any idea what model it is, but the body looks a lot like my 1858 Elite,(maybe a little deeper?). It was easy to play & sounded good unplugged, but the finish looked a lot like the "spray-on bedliners" we use in pickups around here, grey pickups in this case. Actually, I suppose that would make it nearly indestructible, but I'm afraid I don't find it "aesthetically pleasing". Then again, I like the looks of the MOB so what do I know?
(Btw, do you suppose they might make some in red at some point?)
Nils |
|
| |
|
Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15676
Location: SoCal | Nils, that's the Elite T. The t stands for textured. Do a search on the board. There's some interesting reading on it. |
|
| |
|
Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10583
Location: NJ | what is amazing is the textured finish is much thinner than others. |
|
| |
Is this a Breadwinner Proto-Type ?????