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August 2003
Posts: 27
Location: Palm Desert, CA | Hello All,
Thanks for fielding such an awesome site! It ROCKS!
I've had a Korean made Ovation cc167 for 7 years now and it fits my body/hands like a glove. When trying to reduce the string height, a so-called luthier shaved the piece on the bridge a little too low on the high E string side and it has never recorded good since. Also, the neck at the heel has developed a crack running around it.
So I decided to finally buy a higher end model guitar no matter what the cost. I brought home a Taylor 415 ec but wasn't comfortable w/ it so returned it the next day; exchanged it for a Cordoba Gypsy King classical Nylon but returned that after a week (wasn't sure nylon was the way to go and it only came w/ a 3 yr warranty). By the way, I tried every Martin and Gibson in the store but was so unimpressed. It was finally like coming home and saying, "Ah, yes. This is the one," when I tried an Ovation Custom Legend 1869 in black. It is a 2000 and had old strings but played and sounded better than anything else in the store. It also had a few dings so the store ordered a new 2003 same model and gave me a ticket to swap the two out.
I always wanted an Ovation Legend custom with the beautiful inlays and electronics and I finally got it. I recorded it on my Tascam 424 last night and was ecstatic. Also, unplugged around the house, it sounds terrific - with more depth and volume than my mid-bowl celebrity.
The only acoustic I can own would be ovation. I would love to acquire a few more in the new future from this board so I'll be searching.
Dom | |
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Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | Welcome, Dom!!
Great story!
Isn't it great to one of the "Enlightened"? | |
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August 2002
Posts: 623
Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Custom Legends rule!!!!!!
I love em, I love em, I love em, I love em!
Welcome, and many happy years with that guitar.
Reading the other thread on custom orders makes ponder getting a "custom, Custom Legend!".....Hmmmmmmmmm.
All the best,
Johnny | |
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April 2003
Posts: 2503
Location: Fayetteville, NC | Dom,
Great Story. I owned an Ovation Glen Campbell Model 12 String for many years! It recorded and played great plugged or unplugged- but when the playing gigs slowed down and full time work was hard to come by- I sold it.
Ended up with an arsenal of different guitars and always ended up swithching to something else.
Finally all I Had was a Seagull 6 String(Great Guitar- But I longed for a 12 String) I played around differnet High end models.
Taylors sounded great- but somehow for lack of a better term- it lacked the Soul I was looking for.
martins i just wasn't impressed. Gibsons played kinda ruff. Fianlly i started playing around With Ovations again! Ahhhh Just was i was looking for- the only difference is I my 12 Elite 1858 was customized by Ovation with a Mid Depth Bowl-and a Transparent Blue Finish.
GREAT GUITAR- No other way to say it.
Fantastic Allaround Sound Plugged or Unplugged and i used in in the Recording Studio Last Night and the Engineer was Ecstatic with the sound- he did a Miced acoustic track and a Plugged in track and EQed them slightly different and panned each!
What a great sound I love this guitar!!
Glad you found just what you were looking for! | |
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September 2002
Posts: 806
Location: Seymour, Tennessee | I think the Custom Legends are without a doubt the most beautiful "stock" model Ovation makes.
(I've seen some pretty collectors' series guitars through the years that have of course been beautiful too.)
I don't regret for a minute getting my "Custom- Custom Legend" made. It's really cool having the only of a kind you know?
If I wasn't so po (Thats too poor to afford the "o" and the "r") I'd love to have another guitar made, maybe someday I'll be able to do it again.
COngrats on the guitar and welcome to the site.
Oh yeah, howinthahell did you get a dealer to trade you out a new guitar for the 2000 model? | |
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August 2003
Posts: 27
Location: Palm Desert, CA | Thanks for the welcome. As far as the dealer and the swap goes---The custom legend was on the floor but pretty banged up from being on display so long (2 knobs were missing, battery compartment was gone, someone put a flyer in the bowl, and I pointed out the dings) so he got the managers approval to let me take it home while a new one was special ordered. I know it it a 2000 because I checked out the serial number w/ the Ovation Web site.
I would like my next Ovation to be a 12 string - They sound so beautiful.
Dom | |
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August 2002
Posts: 623
Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Perhaps you might consider making an offer on THAT custom legend AS WELL. They might be eager to get rid of it! If they're willing to loan it out, it doesn't seem like they care much of what might happen to it! Maybe it's just been in his shop too long and is willing to give you a deep discount on it, to get rid of it.
Could you live with the dings? The other stuff is repairable, and probably really cheaply. A second "backup" guitar of one you already love is nice to have, especially if you gig. Break a string, and you can grab the second to make it through the set.
John | |
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August 2003
Posts: 27
Location: Palm Desert, CA | Hey that's a good idea, I was mulling over the exact same thing. I can live with the dings. What do you think a reasonable offer would be including tax (CA=7.75%)?
Dom | |
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Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | California tax is now 8 1/4%. Thanks you Gov. Davis. | |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | I don't know what a fair price would be for him to even consider-it all depends on how bad it's beat, and what his circumstances are. Just make an offfer. I'd start with half (or a little less) than new and see how he responds. If he's a small shop, and that guitar's been there quite a while, he might be really, really eager to move it to get some other inventory in. He would probably be thrilled that someone is even remotely interested in it!
Johnny | |
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November 2002
Posts: 1196
Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Dom, welcome and that is a great story. I too join in the praise of the Custom Legend. It has always been a beautiful guitar, with the classic Ovation look. To bad the new ones don't have the carved bridge and truss rod cover anymore. I know the truss rod cover went away with the kaman bar, but the carved bridge would still look great...Paul Hebert | |
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Posts: 27
Location: Palm Desert, CA | 8 1/4!!!! Dam that guy. Did you hear the latest--Bill Clinton is his political advisor!
I'll try the 1/2 approach and see from there.
I also loved the carved bridge and wish it had stayed---oh well, like you said it still is a beauty.
Dom | |
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April 2003
Posts: 557
Location: Burbank | Hey, what store is that? If it doesn't work out for you, maybe I will go over there and beat up on him a bit. Either you or I would be doing them a favor by taking that guitar off their hands. Good luck. | |
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Location: Tennessee | I'm actually surprised that Mr. Clinton is not working Mary Carey's ... errr ... campaign. | |
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June 2003
Posts: 16
Location: Long Island, NY | congrats on the custom legend... your story reminded me of my experience... had a beautiful sunburst CL12 which I foolishly left at my ex wife's house... seems she accidently bartered it for some work around the house..
Got some money together and went to look for a replacement.... bottom line... got another CL12 (natural finish this time) after playing everything in the store ( big store too!!)
Dave | |
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May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | Just a confession, my wife and I took over a school board recall in Poway after the teachers union elected school board fired the superintendent and announced that they were switching to alternative education, i. e., no education (as an example, My wife found our daughter on a visit to a classroom, cowering under her coat to escape the cacaphony in the classroom so she could study), we collected enough signatures to call the election (and it is not easy at all), we were totally outspent in the election by the teachers union, who campaigned in the schools at our expense, and we lost by 200, 200! votes. The next election defeated the people in question decisively and elected a fairly moderate school board.
A moderate school board, as usual, capitualated to the teachers union, and we left, knowing that CA will never be able to educate a child. We were proven right.
Bailey
PS A footnote, one of our opponents hired by the teachers union was a lawyer (Micheal Greer) up for a judgeship, my wife called Gov Brown's aide (Gray Davis), and objected because he was involved with the teachers union, Gray Davis postponed the appointment, later we learned that the lawyer was appointed as a judge and was later convicted and sent to jail for corruption, I personally had some public debates with that sonofabitch, Judge Greer, and he deserves to rot in hell for his transgressions, as all of it was to enrich people, and none was to educate our children.
Nuff said | |
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Posts: 10582
Location: NJ | Originally posted by Bailey:
Just a confession, my wife and I took over a school board recall in Poway after the teachers union elected school board fired the superintendent and announced that they were switching to alternative education, i. e., no education (as an example, My wife found our daughter on a visit to a classroom, cowering under her coat to escape the cacaphony in the classroom so she could study), we collected enough signatures to call the election (and it is not easy at all), we were totally outspent in the election by the teachers union, who campaigned in the schools at our expense, and we lost by 200, 200! votes. The next election defeated the people in question decisively and elected a fairly moderate school board.
A moderate school board, as usual, capitualated to the teachers union, and we left, knowing that CA will never be able to educate a child. We were proven right.
Bailey
PS A footnote, one of our opponents hired by the teachers union was a lawyer (Micheal Greer) up for a judgeship, my wife called Gov Brown's aide (Gray Davis), and objected because he was involved with the teachers union, Gray Davis postponed the appointment, later we learned that the lawyer was appointed as a judge and was later convicted and sent to jail for corruption, I personally had some public debates with that sonofabitch, Judge Greer, and he deserves to rot in hell for his transgressions, as all of it was to enrich people, and none was to educate our children.
Nuff said
I spent 14 years in public education in one of the worst schools in the state, with the worst academic and incident records in the state in a city that often beats Gary Ind for worst city in the country. IF it was not for the union, I would have lasted 3 years and would not have my pension and benefits.
There are many good teachers that are strapped by the system so that they cannot make a difference because they are not allowed. I know this as a fact since I lived it. To generalize and call all unions bad or to stereotype as "moderate", "conservative" or "liberal" is just careless.
I would challenge you to last a week in the school I taught in. I saw many substitutes walk out of the building at 10am saying they had it don't worry about paying me.
The problems with the schools are more deeply rooted than "teachers are bad". they are rooted in an economic system that rewards districts that do not perform with more money, a welfare system that perpetuates the myth that education is worthless, the decline of the two parent family and the necessity for both parents to work in two parent families.
Sorry to get on a soap box here, and I know it is not always the case but if it was not for my union I would be in deep financial trouble as I tried to fight for my first amendment rights. If it was not for my union I would not have my benefits and pension, no matter how meager they are. The system is not perfect. Teacher salaries are HORRIFIC considering the scope of their job and responsibilities. (I don't want to hear about teachers who have been there 30 years on the top of the scale, lets talk about the majority who are in the 1-8 year range, that is about the average before someone decides they are tired of working 2 jobs and want a decent salary from one job.)
Teachers are an easy target, we pay their salaries, they are public servants, WE ALL HAD A TEACHER IN OUR LIFE THAT MADE OUR LIFE A LIVING HELL, so as a result it is an easy target. Unfortunately it is not an easy job. Don't talk to me about trying to educate kids in the classroom, I tried and my life was made such a living hell I got sick over it. So bad that I had to quit. Tell me you would be that dedicated to your job?????
do me a favor write your congressman or Arnold. I understand your frustrations but there are many TEACHERS out there fighting the good fight. | |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Al,
All I can say is "dang"!
Johnny
(My mom's a teacher, so I know how hard they work!) | |
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February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Right on Al. Sorry to hear it's just as bad in the US as it is over here. I worked full time as a music technology lecturer for 5 years, over the last 2 I've cut back to a day & a half. I love teaching but can't stand the bullshit, politics & pen-pushing, or for that matter putting in 60+ hours a week & getting paid for 40. The government and education establisment management are not interested in education, they are interested in meeting targets and aquiring funding, students & teachers are last on their list of priorities. Don't get me started. | |
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March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | I'm only going to post once on this subject then get back to guitars.
In the public school systems, you can't just send your kids to school and think they'll get an education. You have to be involved in the school and be ready to help with homework. You have to let the teacher know that you are a partner with the teacher in your kids schooling. If you can't make that sort of commitment, then don't have kids.
Now, having said that, and understanding that I've been self employed most of my life, I have to say that I hate unions, and in California, the teachers union has been very destructive to education. The union fights against vouchers, they fight to never have a teacher fired (we have a lot of bad teachers that are protected by the unions), and they've allowed the school system here to get very top heavy (great in a woman, bad in a bereauocracy (sp?)).
On the other side of the equation, parents who sue schools and teachers over small disputes are handcuffing the schools from maintaining control over the classrooms.
It's an amazing mess.
But it takes me back to my original point, that for a kid to get a good education, parents have to be involved. Then it works for everybody. | |
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January 2003
Posts: 146
Location: Germantown, MD | I'm a community college professor; my wife teaches elementary school special education.
In criticizing the American public education system, it's important to remember that no culture in the world has ever had the guts to offer everyone a full, free, and appropriate education at public expense. Every other nation I know of tries to start weeding some students out at a fairly early age. In most countries, I probably couldn't have gone to college, let alone finished my Ph.D. with a 4.0 average. And in recent years, Americans seem to have bought into the idea that some schools and teachers choose not to do their jobs, overlooking the role that parents, school boards, administrators and, at some point, students themselves play in the educational equation.
Granted, teachers' unions participate in elections, supporting candidates and ballot initiatives, but about all they can do is offer the public an educators' perspective on the candidates and the issues. The individual voters then decide how to vote. School board members know this, and they act accordingly. This spring, when our district had to figure out how to make up for the days lost during snowstorms last winter. The union wanted to add days by shortening spring break and using a couple of teacher workdays for instruction. Parents wanted to add to the length of each school day for six weeks, even though in the middle schools and high schools, that just meant lengthening the last-period class. The school board, facing an election this year, sided with the parents. And I've heard state legislators tell the teachers' union representatives that the teachers are irrelevant in elections.
Before I get off my soapbox, if it hadn't been for my high school music teacher, I never would have learned enough theory to teach myself to play guitar. More important, he had two rules in his choruses that my fellow chorus members and I still report that we live by 36 years after graduation: "You are not permitted to tell me 'you can't' do anything in my chorus; you have to try at least once," and "If you're going to make a mistake in here, make it loud so that I can show you how to correct it and you can learn from it."
Peace,
John | |
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February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | Paul, you are talking about good parenting. The kids who do well are generally the ones who have support from their families, but the best parenting skills in the world will only partially compensate for a fucked-up education system. I have been involved in education in one way or another for almost 20 years and in my experience the number of "bad" teachers out there is negligible compared to those who care pasionately about what they do & care about the kids in their charge. Sadly it's always the good ones who throw in the towel.
A guy who works with me at the college I teach at had his ass saved by the union. A 16 year-old female student who he was giving a hard time to because she had not handed in any work for a year accused him of assault. Despite witness statements from class members saying she was lying, the management of the college, in an attempt to avoid grief from the parents and be seen as whiter than white intended to fire him, rather than support a good teacher & ditch a bad student | |
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Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | First of all, I support the individual teacher that is dedicated and professional.
However, in California we have considerable problems including Davis (up for recall) who has pandered to every special interest, to include the education unions. Result, too many poor teachers and low academic results.
I own an agency that provides education-based behavioral programs - for juveniles and adults assigned by probation and the courts. This weekend, we started:
for adult: anger mgt, theft and four repeat offender traffic programs (16hrs)
for juveniles: two theft/shoplifting and three assault/anger programs
We also do adult assault/battery, juvenile drug/alcohol, juvenile Success in School, and adult parenting. I see the problems that my relatives have to cope with in their schools/classroom.
By the way, in my programs the offender pays, no taxpayer dollars!
However, in this county we have administration and teachers at odds. School administration attempts to make changes/improvement with the union fighting them all of the way; teachers place the blame on the administration and the need for additional spending, yet I have never seen the union or any teachers in this county take responsibility for the failure of our of students. Take a look at our spending per student and compare it with private schools. Even taking into consideration needs such as special education, there is a major difference in cost per student and achievement.
Juveniles coming into our programs come into our programs thinking they can act as they do in school - lying on floor with back to the group, coming back late from break, language, etc. Not! Maybe the administration has the ultimate responsibility, but also the responsibility of the teacher in the classroom. Yet, the administration can't remove the bad teacher who is protected by the union.
There has to be a balance. We are losing our good teachers because they will not put up with the problems in the classroom. Poor or disinterested teachers are protected. Programs that are ineffective are difficult to drop or change because it threatens the members - either to identify the non-performers or because it my result in reassignment to another program or school.
The many good teachers understand that education of our youth is the goal. Unfortunately, many in this county and state don't understand that. For them, it is the fault of others. | |
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Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | Great discusssion from all perspectives. Just a reminder that my wife and I ran a computer school that was very successful in job training results and my daughter is a high school teacher with a masters. I view the teacher's union as the same type of people and attitudes as the school administrators. Since they, the unions, have elected the school boards for the last 30 years, most administrators are a product of their power, teachers are not very high on their priority list notwithstanding some examples here where they have intervened to help a teacher. Their is a flow of tax money into the school systems that resembles the output of a diesel fire pump, and the union makes sure it goes in to the right pockets, many of which are not on the trousers of ordinary teachers, but in the suit coats of wealthy administrators. Little goes to the classroom.
Bailey | |
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December 2001
Posts: 10582
Location: NJ | Did anyone ever think that the union can protect a good teacher that is getting grief or being targeted or discriminated against???????????
Unions certainly get a bad rap these days but I will tell you as a fact that if it was not for my union I would have been financially ruined because of medical expenses and attorney fees. Unions do not only protect the incompetent but they protect the good also. They protect those that fight the administration to do the best job for their students. I was railroaded from being an exemplary teacher with excellent reviews to having negative evaluations all because I did not believe in the status quo, and required that the kids do some work, and demanded the proper materials for my classes not to mention that I was both a victim of sex and race discrimmination.
Teaching in private schools or tech schools vs the public shool are two totally different animals. It is like playing electric guitar and acoustic guitar, both are guitar but they are very different. Public schools are required by law to take any student through their doors. They cannot pick and choose they cannot tell a kid that has a history to get out. I remember judges sending kids back to the school so they can have a normal childhood. Guess what all they did was disrupt class and teach criminal behavior to other students and make the teacher's lives a living hell. I took mace, pepper spray, hammer, bullets, knives, razor knives, clubs, sticks with nails, brass knuckles etc off of kids I taught. TELL ME THE LAST TIME YOU HAD TO DO THAT TO ONE OF YOUR CO WORKERS.
ARe their bad teacher certainly. ARe their bad plummers? policemen, cable instlalers hot dog vendors, priests, rabbis, carpenters, authors, actors and even MUSICIANS?????? yes. Why do we bash teaching then? because it is an easy target.
Standardized testing and education is NOT the answer. I had a combined 740 on my SAT scores. I should not have even went to college but I did and I got 3 degrees. SO what does that say? Not everyone tests well, and there must be alternatives.
To you parents, send to the classroom and educable child. i.e. a child that is prepared, fed, has supplies, is well rested, has assignments completed and you will see a child that learns in almost ANY situation. Unfortunately we have bred a culture of individuals who not only hate their teachers but now are going to take it out on the teachers of their kids without even suspecting that their own child me be at fault. Of course not it we never have faults of our own and why not project them onto the easiest target we can "the teacher".
I have seen teachers that were junkies and sex offenders, x cons etc. But this is not the majority people. many districts have drug testing and every teacher has to have a background check. Are there people that are burned out? of course but you find that in every profession.
I devoted a large portion of my life to the education of others and spent countless hours in classrooms getting my credentials. This is not a flippant subject with me. The saddest part is that I cannot continue to work in my chosen field. It was a huge part of my life for many years and it is difficult to let it go. | |
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Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | "send to the classroom and educatable child. i.e. a child that is prepared, fed, has supplies, is well rested, has assignments completed and you will see a child that learns in almost ANY situation. Unfortunately we have bred a culture of individuals who not only hate their teachers but now are going to take it out on the teachers of their kids without even suspecting that their own child may be at fault."
Now we're getting to the the root of at least some of the problem.
I get sick & tired of kids (actually, they're damn near adults) in further education who can't turn up to class with a fucking pen, never mind a positive attitude. And in the veiw of the establishment it's the fault of the teacher for not "motivating effectively" | |
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Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | Al wrote:
I took mace, pepper spray, hammer, bullets, knives, razor knives, clubs, sticks with nails, brass knuckles etc off of kids I taught. TELL ME THE LAST TIME YOU HAD TO DO THAT TO ONE OF YOUR CO WORKERS.
Al, I'm the wrong person for anybody to be asking that question. | |
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Location: NJ | Paul
But that is in your job description isn't it??????? It was not in mine but all in a days work.
al
ps $300 a day plus expenses looks good right now | |
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Posts: 146
Location: Germantown, MD | It's interesting to me that all of us on this board play guitar with more or less talent and skill, but I suspect that only the few who have training as luthiers would presume to tell a luthier how to build a guitar. We'd say that we weren't qualified. On the other hand, everybody who has ever sat in a classroom as a student seems to feel qualified to tell teachers how to do their jobs.
Here's a situation that suburban school teachers face several times a year. I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts on it. Imagine yourself to be the teacher. Parents take their kids out of class for a week or more for a family vacation; this is an excused absence because the parents notified the school in advance. As teacher, you sent homework packets in hope that the students wouldn't fall too far behind, but the homework isn't returned. At the end of the week, the student has missed a week of instruction and has only learned that having a good time on vacation is more important than going to school. (The students' return may be a bit disruptive because classmates want to know and the students have to tell about the vacation.) The week that the students missed was about three percent of the year's instruction, and that's enough to cause a marginal student's grade to slip down in this case. The parents, who "only want what's best for their child," complain to the principal what you're unjustly penalizing their student for an excused absence. The principal, who was appointed based on a recommendation from a parents committee and without input from teachers, is inclined to take the parents' side. If you tell the parents that their vacation was ill-timed or refuse to raise the grade, you may be disciplined for insubordination. While the principal may not be able to fire you, she can require you to go through a year-long out-of-cycle performance review, which could result in your termination. The principal also mentions that she's concerned that the school is very close to being designated a "failing school" if the students don't score well on the upcoming standardized tests, and a few students like this one could make the difference. She hopes you'll do what's necessary to get this student caught up.
Bailing out is not an option; you love your job most of the time. How do you deal with this situation? Would the presence or absence of a strong union to support you make a difference in your response? Keep in mind that this is not hypothetical.
Peace,
John
PS. I'm not going to grade the responses; I'm just curious. | |
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February 2002
Posts: 5750
Location: Scotland | John, great post. Unfortunately bailing out is an option, often the only one left. The college I work at is being re-inspected this year after management achieved an unsatisfactory report a couple of years ago. I'm considering not even bailing in when the new term starts in a few weeks. | |
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Posts: 7222
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | My overall view is that there are good teachers, and there are good schools, and it's RARE unfortunately when they are both in the same place. Unions can be excellent, but I don't think they took into account how low people will go and as stated many hide behind the "nanner nanner you can't fire me" clause. I am disgusted with the education system in this country, and glad I don't have to put any kids through it, although I was a "parent" for several years. The below events happened over many years, some have been corrected, some just got worse.
- My Highschool lost its accreditation.
- Children of families moving to Germany were
held back when they arrived there, because the German schools were about 1 year ahead of ours.
- Parents have to supply paper, paper towels, toilet paper and such on the first day of school. (what the hell are taxes for)
- My cousin is a teacher. One day in the EARLY 80's when kneeling down to ask the 12 year old girl to kindly NOT wear a seethrough dress to school he noticed the Colt 45 (the gun, not the beer) in the belt of the 12 year old boy sitting in the next chair.
- In the mid 80's CALIFORNIA HAD A VOTE TO DECIDE WHAT LANGUAGE SHOULD BE TAUGHT AS THE PRIMARY LANGUAGE OF THE STATE!!!!!!!!!
- In Hawaii public schools the teachers must speak pigeon english. (I don't know if that's the real name for the Hawaii slang language.)
I feel a rant coming on, so I will stop. We may have one of the best systems, but it's far from perfect... very far.
It's fine to say "parents should take responsibility" but in many cases there aren't any parents. Either in reality, or they just aren't there. In the DC area, there are very few households that can survive on one income. I believe the DC area has the largest per-cap number of Nannys, and oh-pairs in the country.
I have met some great teachers over the years. But also have seen some terrible ones.
I have no answers, but one opinion. If there is a parent or parents, they should be held accountable for the acts of their children. PERIOD!!! The Parents of the kids who shot up Columbine and elsewhere should be in Jail. No trial. The only thing that need to be proven is that the kids did "it" whatever the crime is, and they are the parents.
It used to be fun when "Pistol Pete" our town constable came to school. It was like a big show and tell day. Now schools look like prisons complete with armed guards roaming the halls.
Again, I'm glad I don't have kids. | |
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March 2002
Posts: 1380
Location: Central Oregon | First of all, welcome aboard Glockaxis! This is a very interesting place that covers a lot of ground besides Ovation guitars!
John, I think you already know what you have to do. It might not be what you'd like to do, but you know what is right & what is wrong. If that kid's parents *really* wanted what was "best" for the kid, they wouldn't take him/her out of school for a week knowing said kid was already barely getting by. Period.
If they didn't know the kid was barely getting by they're crappy parents. Period.
Personally, if I found myself in your situation I'd point those facts out & whatever happens, happens. I don't have a degree in anything, but in the last 55 years I've found that callin' 'em like I see 'em is the only way I can get through life & look at myself in the mirror every day.
If the results of doing what is right are something you can't be comfortable with, go do something else- like Miles suggested.
A crappy frustrating job is a crappy frustrating job, regardless of what the job itself is. Life is too short, don't waste a third of it doing something that doesn't make you happy.
Nils (btw, it rimes with Miles, I have no real idea why there's no *e*) :) | |
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December 2001
Posts: 10582
Location: NJ | JOhn
to answer your question.
There was a time when approved leaves for students were only due to hardship or educational purposes. Now parents will pull their kids out of school because they got a good hotel rate in disneyland/world/six flags etc etc etc. This to me is unacceptable but unfortunately a reality.
I taught in a district where the parents would go back and forth from Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Nicaragua etc with such frequency that you would have thought they were working at Microsoft and not welfare recipients. The reasoning behind these sojourns was always a sick relative or family problem etc but the kids ultimately suffered. Usually when they went back to the native country they did not attend school and when back in the states there were at the beginning again.
The problem you outlined is not exclusive to the suburbs. | |
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March 2002
Posts: 1380
Location: Central Oregon | Originally posted by alpep:
JOhn
to answer your question.
There was a time when approved leaves for students were only due to hardship or educational purposes. Now parents will pull their kids out of school because they got a good hotel rate in disneyland/world/six flags etc etc etc. This to me is unacceptable but unfortunately a reality.
I taught in a district where the parents would go back and forth from Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Nicaragua etc with such frequency that you would have thought they were working at Microsoft and not welfare recipients. The reasoning behind these sojourns was always a sick relative or family problem etc but the kids ultimately suffered. Usually when they went back to the native country they did not attend school and when back in the states there were at the beginning again.
The problem you outlined is not exclusive to the suburbs.
And from what I've been hearing you might have to send 'em right on through high school with a diploma without being able to read, because otherwise it might hurt their self esteem.
Imo, the root of our problem is we have waaay too many lawyers without enough honest work, therefore they have to keep coming up with more & more outrageous things to squabble about. F'rinstance- Some kid takes a gun to school & shoots people- Sue the school! Sue the City! Sue the gunmaker! Sue the guy that poured the cement that the bullet bounced off of! But Hells Bells don't tell the parents it's they're fault!
All this sort of bullshit does is suck money out of the pockets of honest people who actually create, build, fix, invent or produce *something, anything!* that is useful to society, be it through more taxes, higher insurance premiums, or whatever.
I'm not saying we need zero lawyers, & I'm not saying there are zero lawyers doing something useful, I'm just saying we have many (many, many) more than are remotely necessary in a reasonable society, that's why we no longer have one.
Short story:
I have a friend that is trying to get into the electricians union as an apprentice. He can work as a helper, but he can't get in as an apprentice until some other apprentice quits or an electrician retires, or somebody croaks.
But! We pump lawyers into the system as fast as they can pass the bar exam. It's no wonder this country is in such a mess.
I think it would be a wonderful idea to freeze the number of lawyers right now & not allow any more until, say, three fourths of 'em die. Then freeze it at that number & try it for ten years. What have we got to lose?
Unfortunately that will never happen, because a lot of the leftover lawyers became politicians.
Gee, that felt good!
Nils
P.S. If I offended any lawyers I promise to worry about it in "Micro Give-a-Shits". | |
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Posts: 10582
Location: NJ | Funny my first choice of profession was lawyer, Because I wanted to HELP people. I did not get into an accredited law school because of low test scores and decided that as a teacher I could help way more people at once than as a lawyer.
I was wrong.
They are called public schools for a reason. You support the "status quo" of the neighborhood, city, state, region, country, politicians, etc. Although creativity and spontaneity are alledged teaching tools, They are not allowed in a situation where the goal is to produce the same "type" of person in a cookie cutter fashion.
The honors program in my inner city school was a joke. It was equivalent to the standard program in suburban schools.
I know of teachers that were fired because they refused to pass kids that could not do the minimum of the subject material. Unfortunately, if every teacher failed who they should there would be a huge amount of kids with no piece of paper that says they graduated.
The dumbing down of society has started long ago. I can tell you stories that will make you puke. I have seen many good teachers (and hacks like myself) leave the profession because they could no longer take the abuse.
Are lawyers the problem? Well they are part of the problem, along with the automatic cash registers that make it unnecessary for people to know math and automated phone systems that never allow you to speak to a live person and many other modern conveniences that provide "comfort" but in reality utilize less of the human element.
Go into a store during a computer glitz and watch how people will not even know how to complete a transaction without the aid of technology. Maybe technology is our true enemy and we are not smart enough to identify it. | |
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Posts: 7222
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I know someone who graduated from high school in prestigeous Fairfax Virgina. Average household income in Fairfax (this was about 6 years ago) was 65K. The only low income housing in the area was mandated by the state (every builder has to build x % low income housing.). I am just trying to paint the picture of this upscale town, considered a 'burb or D.C., where this gentleman graduated high school and could not read. He was not alone. When I met him (in his late 20's) he was attending night school with several others high school graduates from the area who could not read.
For those that are not in tune with the local geography, this is OUR NATIONS CAPITAL. You don't even want to know about the schools actually located in the District. | |
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Posts: 146
Location: Germantown, MD | Miles,
I live in Fairfax County and teach in Montgomery County, Maryland, just across the Potomac, which has very similar demographics and schools. The Fairfax County system overall is highly regarded and its students who take the SAT have average scores that are consistently above the national average. Still, I'm not surprised to know that good results aren't universal. Should your friend have been allowed to graduate without being able to read? Hell no. Does the fact that he was indicate that the entire system is a failure? Probably not.
Peace,
John | |
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March 2002
Posts: 1380
Location: Central Oregon | "Unfortunately, if every teacher failed who they should there would be a huge amount of kids with no piece of paper that says they graduated."
And that is EXACTLY how it SHOULD be! Why should some dumbass lazy dipshit that can't even read be given a high school diploma?? Just give me ONE good reason! And don't try to tell me it's because it would hurt their poor little ego's if they flunked out. It SHOULD hurt their damned egos!
At one time a high school diploma meant a person had at least enough tenacity & pluck to stick with something long enough to learn the basic things you need to know to function in our society. An employer could see by their diploma that an applicant had at least something on the ball. Now it doesn't mean a GOD DAMNED THING! That, imo, is one reason why we have kids with a BS (which is becoming a more appropriate description of their "education" all the time) that are flipping burgers. (Although they might still be too ignorant to make change.) Giving a diploma to an illiterate is like paying somebody that doesn't do the work they're paid to do & that is bullshit! I don't care how anybody tries to justify it.
Nils | |
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Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10582
Location: NJ | Nils
Once again we are caught in the educational catch 22.
kid does not learn.
kid scores low on standardized test.
teacher fails kid.
principal does not want large amounts of failures it looks bad for him/her.
Principal pressures teacher into changing grades or just changes them by pressuring the guidance department to do it.
can;t have the school looking bad or the district.
believe me I have seen this happen and it happens more often then you think.
The teachers are not always the bad guys. I have seen people quit rather than change grades. So what happens you have to feed your family and pay your bills, the administration changes your grades and you can do nothing about it. No one will listen to you.
Make teachers more accountable????
give me a break.
Let's start with making superintendents, school boards, supervisors and prinicpals accountable and let's not penalize them for having dumb kids in their schools.
The ONLY thing that works folks is lower class sizes. You can deal with 3 idiots in a class if there are only 15 in a class room Most of the classes I saw in my tenure as a teacher had 30-40. This is stupid. Kids that need the special care and attention don't get it. Why? who the hell wants to work in the inner city and risk your life car and stuff for miserable pay and no accolades.
Only idiots like me. | |
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December 2001
Posts: 7222
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | There are some good teachers out there. I feel sorry for them, but I know they are there. I think a HUGE part of problems in society today is this cloud of "political correctness." There is no one answer to fix the edjamukaytion system of this county. In fact, in some places, it just isn't broken. Learning anything like to play an instrument requires certain elements. A willing student, a competent teacher (could even be books or a video... but someone wrote it), proper materials and practice. In the world of education and children all of those elements don't always exist, and it can be different from child to child in the same classroom.
1. Willing student. I think most people are willing to learn, just have to speak the right language. This element can not stand alone. You still need a teacher, materials, and practice.
2. Materials. Again, all the computers, pens, pencils, and PDA's won't teach a student.
3. Teacher. I think most teachers are probably at least compitent. Many are great, but without a willing student, who has the right materials, and one can practice what they learn... well you see where this is going...
4. Practice. I think this is the most IMPORTANT part of learning ANYTHING. In education or "school" practice for some reason is seen as something that should take place in the school. If you take guitar lessons, you are expected to practice AT HOME and show up the next week prepared. But school doesn't seem to work like that in many cases. This is where THE PARENTS are to be held responsible.
I think with the emphasis on career that there is, many parents today fall short of their responsibility and THAT is the problem with our education system, and a lot of society.
Speaking of "emphasis on career" I think that too is OVER emphasized in our society and in schools. Although this is the land of oportunity, not EVERY kid will go to college. Not EVERY kid needs to or wants to. I think at some level, when a child realizes that they will not go to college, most likely because of financial reasons and they are a solid "C" student... where is the motivation to succeed. For those that do go to college, the "career path" is such a part of life that it follows them forward. Finally, when they have kids, they are caught off-guard, because "career planning" can no longer be on the fast-track. But wait... with money you can BUY parents for your kids.
It truly is a sad world we live in. | |
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Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | All Right
I started this great rant, and I now must intrject my opinion that led to the Poway recall. Schools were initially formed to do what parents, who were busy farming, ranching, running stores, etc, were to busy to educate their children. So the schoolmarm or the guy with a little ability was hired and given a building and a few supplies to teach the children the abilities that they might need to survive in soceity. This was never meant to give that teacher authority to teach a philosophy that differed from the community that hired him/her.
The development of the idea that the educational beauracracy is more able than the parents in deciding what is proper for the education of our children is what has ruined our schools. Parents, even if they are distracted, Know what is right for their children. | |
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Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10582
Location: NJ | Originally posted by Bailey:
All Right
The development of the idea that the educational beauracracy is more able than the parents in deciding what is proper for the education of our children is what has ruined our schools. Parents, even if they are distracted, Know what is right for their children.
Does that include crack mothers, prostititutes, drug dealers, alcoholics, etc?
I in no way want to diminish the role of the parent but your argument is only applicable when there is responsibility present. I taught many kids that were raised by aunts, grandparents etc. Their parents were too busy getting high and having fun to care about their kids.
Looks like we have come to an interesing point here. The problem with the educational system is that their is no universally applicable fix.
I can tell you with a view from the trenches that there is no time to teach "philosophy" there is a strict curriculum that must be followed. Myself, and others in the field had problems with how the curriculum was presented. As a professional we wanted the ability to determine what ways were best suited to teach the group of students in front of us. Each group dynamic is different and what works for one group may not work for another. Yet school boards want to dictate education instruction methods that may or may not be applicable to the needs of the individual classroom.
Case in point, One of my main points of contention was using an educational model that was never tested with middle school students and was totally un applicable to second language learners. I protested, I stated my points, the administration agreed, but still required me to use this model because it was "district approved". What a waste of my time, student time and taxpayer cash.
Why is it we are so quick to tell the teacher a trained professional how to do their job, when we would not think of it for most other profession? What makes our society want to bash the person that we charge with the well being and education of our youth as incompetent? It is amazing how in many other cultures the teacher is held in high regard, in our the teacher is just another public servant. So if that is your view, expect to get exactly that, just another public servant. | |
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Posts: 7222
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Al, I totally agree with you. The "fix" becomes even more complicated when there aren't
"parents" in the picture for whatever reason. I will add that many of the children being raised by an "au pair" or nanny are at the same disadvantage as the children of prostitutes and drug dealers and such being raised by aunts and grandparetns. They might just live in a better house.
I contend that the erosion of our great society has led to many more kids without parents, and there are plenty of "systems" in place that just perpetuate this.
I really don't think there is anything fundementally wrong with most of what people refer to as the "education system." There is a deeper problem.
This may pull the thread in a different direction, but it is a slightly more cut'n dry analogy for my point. The line "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is something I believe in. I don't think making more laws, adding regulations etc etc etc is going to stop people from wanting to kill people. With this same philosophy, more rules and regulations, and judging teachers and closing schools, and more taxes, and vouchers, are not going to instill the fact that "PARENTS" start the ball rolling. Those "crack dealers, prostitutes etc" all had parents, or maybe those parents were just as bad, but somewhere in their history, was a parent that failed. The successful couple that nonchalantly decides to have children and immediatly starts interviewing people to raise that child, had parents that failed.
I feel very very lucky. I hated my parents and later in life I learned they are just people that had no buisness having children, but society felt different in those days (and today too I guess), probably making them feel broken because they didn't have kids at an earlier age than they did. I made some choices out of blind stupidity, and had some good outside influences, so I guess I turned out ok. Not every kid is not that lucky. In my image of a better world, I would not have been born and I realize that. But too many kids ARE born, and aren't as lucky as I was to make choices that dropped me into the right places at the right time. Growing up should be a little more guided, and our society is lacking there. | |
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March 2002
Posts: 1380
Location: Central Oregon | I agree Al, there is a "catch 22" in education.
I am intelligent enough to see that there is a problem, unfortuntely I am not capable of coming up with a solution. Btw, I don't blame teachers, with the exception of one old bat that caused me to throw in the towel during my second year at the U. of Alaska.
Here's a little C&P from Bill Gates:
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BILL GATES' SPEECH TO MT. WHITNEY HIGH SCHOOL
in Visalia, California.
Love him or hate him, he sure hits the nail on the head with this!
To anyone with kids of any age, here's some advice. Bill Gates recently gave a speech at a High School about 11 things they did not and will not learn in school. He talked about how feel-good, politically correct teachings created a generation of kids with no concept of reality and how this concept set them up for failure in the real world.
Rule 1: Life is not fair - - get used to it!
Rule 2: The world won't care about your self-esteem. The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.
Rule 3: You will NOT make $60,000 a year right out of high school. You won't be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both.
Rule 4: If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss.
Rule 5: Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. Your Grandparents had a different word for burger flipping -- they called it opportunity.
Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.
Rule 7: Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now. They got that way from paying your bills, cleaning your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were. So before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.
Rule 8: Your school may have done away with winners and losers, but life HAS NOT. In some schools they have abolished failing grades and they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer. This doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.
Rule 9: Life is not divided into semesters. You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you FIND YOURSELF. Do
that on your own time.
Rule 10: Television is NOT real life. In real life people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to jobs.
Rule 11: Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one.
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December 2001
Posts: 7222
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | On AOL there is a section dedicated to schools. It has ratings, and input from principles and parents etc... Very useful tool if you have kids, but at the very least it's interesting.
Here is a parents comment about an Elementary school in Hawaii.
"Class sizes average 33 students for grades 4 and 5 and 6. Some teachers need to retire their heart is not there. A new principal will be arriving for the new school term hopefully this will bring some positive change and new teachers. If you expect any quality sports to be taught to your child if any,dream on"
I'm not sure if folks outside of AOL can see this..
GreatSchools.Net | |
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August 2003
Posts: 27
Location: Palm Desert, CA | Hello all, (ALPEP--Question for you at the end)
Just an update to this post that I started:
I went yesterday and picked up the 2003 black Custom Legend that the store ordered to replace the 2000 CL floor model they let me take home (1 hr to get there and 1 back). It is indeed beautiful and I saw the guy pull it out from the cardboard box since it came in yesterday afternoon.
They wanted a little over cost for the old one and I didn't bite since I thought it was going to be lower.
The main differences I noticed was the more plush case w/ the name "Ovation" on the fur; the guitar's Op 50 preamp system; and a different texture where the guitar rests on your leg. While I was waiting I also saw and played an Adamas carbon fibre top guitar for 1400 (MSRP 2200) that I also wanted but Maybe at the end of the school year-------
By the way I am currently a teacher and have been for the past 6 years. I've enjoyed reading the comments given by all and agree with the general consensus about education. My previous years were done in a private middle school and now I am jumping to public high school (can't wait for the culture shock!!!) There are a lot of pros and cons to each but I feel more valued at the public schools so far despite problems. I did do some teaching at an inner city high school in San Diego where I was in the line of fire of some gun-weilding student but survived so I have some idea of what I'm getting myself into. ALPEP, If things don't work out could I get a job at your store?
Thanks | |
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December 2001
Posts: 10582
Location: NJ | it would be one hellava commute | |
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August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | Dom,
Interesting-the 2000 CL may have had more than broken knobs wrong with it...the 2000 CL 12 that I just bought on eBay came with the 9158 case and OP50 pre-amp. I know that this is a 2000 based on serial number. Maybe the floor model was not a yr 2000 since I assume the 6-string and 12-string CL would have had the same model case and pre-amp. | |
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March 2002
Posts: 1380
Location: Central Oregon | Since this thread has wandered all over the place anyway, here's an update on lawyers "helping" people from todays "News of the Weird".
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The Latest Results from America's preeminent Lawyer Enrichment Program (class-action lawsuits):
(1) In a $350 million settlement between AT&T and customers overcharged on telephone leases, lawyers get $84 million, and customers get back
$15-20 each (December).
(2) In a recent settlement between Sears and customers with improperly-done wheel balancing, lawyers get $2.45 million, and customers get $2.50 a tire.
(3) In a $3.7 million settlement between televangelist Jim Bakker's Praise The Lord
Ministries and 165,000 defrauded Christians, lawyers get $2.5 million, and each victim gets $6.54 (July).
(4) In a settlement of price-fixing charges against cosmetics manufacturers and retailers,
lawyers get $24 million, and each customer gets a free cosmetic
(July).
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Sorry, I couldn't "help" (harhar) myself. This has been a fun & informative thread. :)
Nils | |
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May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | And a Texas high muckety muck pled guilty to frauduantly trying to divert millions of tobacco settlement money to his favorite law firm. Maybe a few trips out of town dressed in tar and feathers and waving to the crowd because of the honor would do a lot to reform the legal establishment, the bar association sure won't rein them in. If the victims of those sort of Class action suits could confront the lawyers that "helped" them, with horse whips and tar and feathers, true reform would result. I am sorry to offend any one by praising these lawers so highly. (did I find an exception to the rule "i before e except after c, in the word rein, or did I mispell it?)
Bailey (hang the lawyer, not the client and you will enable the reduction of crime on a BIG scale) | |
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New Mbr.-Just upgraded! (kinda long)