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Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Just something I thought I would throw out to those of you who have both 6- and 12-strings. I'm finding that playing 12-strings is making it much easier to play my 6-strings, in terms of making chord changes and the length of time I can play before my fingers get tired.
This is logical, I think. Just curious about others' exprience.
Roger
1976 Applause AA14-4 6-String
1981 Ovation 1118-1 Glen Campbell 12-string
2001 Adamas 1598-MERB Melissa Etheridge 12-String
2003 Celebrity CC01 Spruce Top 6-String | |
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December 2001
Posts: 10582
Location: NJ | sure anything that builds up the fingers is a good thing/ I am sure that bending two stinfs intead of one helps.
for years people had said to play acoustic to build up your electric playing and that is generally because acoustics have heavier strings. | |
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December 2003
Posts: 420
Location: On the beach in Southwest Florida | It works for me. | |
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March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | Nothing tends to work for me. I keep banging away at my 3 chords, 6 string, 12 string, doesn't make any difference with me.
But I suspect that for most people, it would work well. | |
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August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | In the limited time I have to play, I usually play the 12-str.
As I am right handed, I agree that the 12-str helps strenghen the left hand as to bar chords, etc. (although the CL neck is a lot easier than most 12's I have played. However, I find that I have to go back to the 6-str to continue to grow as a player.
1st - tendancy to play the same songs and style with the 12-str, over and over;
2nd - less innovation, usually don't try to work out the guitar solo on a 12 (see First);
3rd - runs;
4th - tendacy to work in first 3-5 frets.
5th - although this doesn't sound rational, find that I have to go back to a 6-str to correct hand position, general crispness.
I am performing only for myself in my office, not working out with other guitarists. When I was working out with other guitarists, one of us would take lead, rhythm, etc. So, I try to vary my play working out the different parts or just the solo. Was easier when I was just working out the 12-string parts with a group. In the future, may try to record all of the parts and see how it sounds. If the coyotes start howling, guess I start over. | |
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Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Al, I had heard about playing acoustic to build up your electric playing and I believe that is true, too. I find my Epi Casino and Les Paul VERY easy to play after playing the 12-strings for awhile.
Tony has a good point....the 12-string lends itself to a specific style and type of song....it works for me for many of the songs I want to play, but for some it just DOESN'T. I tend to be a chord-basher, maybe that is why it works for me to the degree it does. But I do need to go back to the 6-strings to feel improvement.
Roger
1976 Applause AA14-4 6-String
1981 Ovation 1118-1 Glen Campbell 12-string
2001 Adamas 1598-MERB Melissa Etheridge 12-String
2003 Celebrity CC01 Spruce Top 6-String | |
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Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | To be a bit more serious after my last post, I've found over the years that it isn't the tune that dictates the guitar (6 vs 12), but my attitude at the moment. Almost anything I can play on a 6, I can play on a 12, and if I can play it on a 12, I can definitly play on a 6.
Sometimes I think my lot in life is to be a 12 string rhythm player ("I'm a rhythmer man, I'm a rhythmer" - J.L.), but for the last several months, most of my playing has been on the 68 Deluxe Balladeer. But pretty well, it's just whatever I pick up at the moment and what sounds right to my ear. | |
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August 2002
Posts: 623
Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Sure, it requires more muscle strength to hold down 12 strings, so your fingers get an endurance test compared to on a 6 string.
I find the two completely different animals, and love both for different applications. When I'm just kicking around the house, I usually end up playing my 6 string. I have to sing much louder to vocally match the volume of my 12 string, and I'm sure my apartment neighbors wouldn't want that! So,when it comes time to record or gig, I must reacquaint myself to the 12 string beast, as it behaves so differently. Also, my calouses get a workout with the 12 string change as well.
"although this doesn't sound rational, find that I have to go back to a 6-str to correct hand position"
...I'm with ya. I often tell my students NOT to observe my left hand position on my 12, especially at a show, because I'm gripping that neck for dear life trying to hold some chords down-and often my left hand thumb wraps around the top of the neck for added strength (a big "no-no" when it comes to setting an example for technique). Arpeggiating a barre chord cleanly on a twelve (especially closer to the nut), in standing position, requires massive finger strength. WIthout even consciously trying, I've observed my pinky overlap and rest ON TOP of my ring finger for added support when playing a major barre chord with the root on the 5th string (where the ring finger is barred across the 4th, 3rd, and 2nd strings-thus holding 6 of the 12 strings down with one finger, while still allowing the 1st string ring clean {held by the 1st finger barre across the neck}-a physical feat if you ask me). Don't even know where I get off teaching ANYONE when I see myself pull THAT move!
Another related thought..playing while standing is, for me, a completely different animal than sitting down-ESPECIALLY on a 12 string. I stand at gigs, and my hand position changes completely-it's much more challenging to play. The guitar sits much lower, so accessing the neck corrrectly is harder, and it requires much more finger strength. I HAVE to spend my last few practices before a gig standing while playing to get used to it. Either that or I'd have to wear my guitar up high, like Dave Mathews, which presents problems for me too. But, either way, the right hand technique changes, as the angle it hits the strings is much different.
Well, such is life-each instrument has it's challenges. I probably should have stuck with piano if I knew I would find myself bitching! Damn whimp! Can't stop this passion for guitar though-no other instrument could do it for me.
-Johnny | |
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August 2003
Posts: 2246
Location: Yucaipa, California | Whew! I'm not ALONE!!!
This is one reason I love this BB so much!
I too have the switchover problems between the 12 & 6 strings... the 12-string "grip of death" syndrom becomes quite apparent when I've played the 6-strings more often than the 12.
One thing that I have found that I feel is rather dangerous is this: When I play the 6-strings for an extended period and then play the 12... I feel like a beginner again! sore fingers, fingers slipping off the strings, muscle cramps between the thumb and index finger... it becomes very discouraging and I am tempted to put down the 12 and play the easier 6's, thus compounding the situation.
For a player who is approaching Geezerhood, I tend to migrate toward the easy way and I need to consiously go back and "play through" the 12-string pains....
I still love them all though!
tim | |
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Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | You know, I'm wondering if the reason I don't have probalmes going back and forth between the 6 and the 12 is that I only know the 3 chords........ | |
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March 2002
Posts: 14842
Location: NJ | In some ways, I'm kinda' in the same boat as Moody (which is scary!).
Since the main purpose of my guitar playing is just to keep time (and add "color") while I'm singing, the vast majority of my playing doesn't go higher than the 7th fret so I'm not playing with an overt amount of difficulty. It also helps that Al sold me a Legend-12 with a really SWEET playable neck. I have played some other 12's that require a bionic left hand.
I don't know if it really makes playing a six any easier, but I have noticed that after playing the six for awhile and then switching to the twelve, my fingertips actually feel more comfortable. It's almost like instead of my fingers trying to hold down six very distinct thickness of strings against the frets/fingerboard, the 12 almost feels "flatter" in that the strings almost feel like they're more evenly spaced and not so distinct/abrupt. The strings on the 12 are also a slightly lighter gauge, so that helps also.
I found that since playing my 12 as much as I do, my callouses have changed considerably. Before, my callouses had little "hot spots" of toughness at the very tip that diminished outwards over the fingertip. Now, my callouses have become larger, tougher, and more uniform over the tips of my fingers, making playing the six a bit easier (especially during rapid chord changes).
I've also found a great advantage to "switching off" somewhat frequently. There are some songs that we do that just SOUND better with a 12 in the mix (or I'll use the 12 just to NOT sound the same as Rick). As much as I/we TRY to work these songs into our set lists to alleviate the constant switching back and forth of guitars, inevitably when either one of us starts to "stray" from the list (and/or when the "requests" start getting shouted out in rapid succession), I'm inevitably switching back and forth every other song. It's a pain in the ass at times, but I find that my aging fingers DO seem to feel better longer, and my hands don't seem to wanna cramp up after four hours of playing with just a 15 minute break in the middle.
I'm with Tim in that I LOVE twelves! | |
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January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | I've found that it just comes down to practice and work and from that you get better. Ovations in general are easy to play (unless you're in a retail store but that's something else again, click) We designed them that way. Anything that works your fingers and technique will make you grow. Since I sold the gas station I've been playing much more and mostly old Nationals. If an Ovation is a sports car these old guitars are trucks. It is work to play them, but I really like that sound so I just do it. Recently I've started playing regular acoustics again and I find the noise that is created much better than I remember from several years ago. Some I'm sure is just from playing more but my fingers are much stronger than they used to be. I also am using mediums on about half of the guitars, up from lights.
Cliff makes a good point about the fingertips, I agree with that completely.
Here's another suggestion. Most have more than one guitar. String one of them, what you'll call your practice guitar, with heavier strings than you usually use and practice on that. If you don't have a 12 this might work as well. Give yourself a good workout and it will sound better too. | |
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Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619
Location: SoCal | re: "Ovations in general are easy to play"
I have played a number of "brands" - these are the only ones I will play...I favor the CL but the GC that I recently got is also great. Can't evaluate Pacemaker as I haven't played it.
Anyone on the OFC that hasn't gotten a 12 thinking it is too hard - forget it, get one. Ovation/Adamas makes the best 12's in the industry. No need to de-tune, sound excels, neck is like butter-smooth. | |
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Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | I have an interesting situation between my 12-strings....the Adamas ME plays as smooth as butter, and the Ovation GC has, shall we say, action issues!!!! Both are strung with D'Addario .010s at the moment, but the Adamas is easy to play anywhere on the neck, the Glen Campbell is not easy once you get above the 4th or 5th fret. Haven't measured the action at the 12th fret, but it looks high to me.
Maybe the GC is my "practice guitar"!
I intend to work on the action next time I change strings....I want to get used to the guitar first.....love it every other way....the sound is noticeably different than the ME, even with the same strings.
I agree with Tony....if you don't have a 12-string because you think it's hard to play....GET ONE.....I remember back in October when I first played a 6751 Balladeer 12-string at our local GC and what an eye-opener it was! I had thought playing a 12-string would be difficult, but with the nice action, it was easy. I was making chord changes with no problems. That is what led to my having two of them now!
Roger
1976 Applause AA14-4 6-String
1981 Ovation 1118-1 Glen Campbell 12-string
2001 Adamas 1598-MERB Melissa Etheridge 12-String
2003 Celebrity CC01 Spruce Top 6-String | |
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Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127
Location: 6 String Ranch | Roger that, Roger.
As I said earlier, Ovations were designed to play easy. That is especially true for the 12 strings. They just play sooo easy. Roger, the GC may have some neck warpage to deal with, it doesn't have a K-Bar and is not as stiff, that may be why it's stiffer to play above the 5th fret.
Not that I have a slanted point of view, but there isn't a better 12 out there. Thinking back over the 30 years in the business and the hundreds of guitars that have visited me, there was only one 12 that wasn't round. A guild, nice guitar but hard to play. If I recall correctly I got it by trading an Ovation 12 for it, a good idea at the time, it got another college cuircut endorsee for Ovation. The Guild didn't last in the stable very long and was put out to pasture. | |
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Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664
Location: SoCal | Bill's right. The O 12 strings are just wonderful. I've had one for 8 years (I went right to the top -- my very first 12 string was Big Blue, an Adamas 12 string -- even getting used to it and learning to play a 12, I sounded wonderful because of that guitar).
My 69 GC 12 string came to me this last year. It has it's own voice, but I love it. It's got a great neck on it.
I've played every 12 string I could get my hands on over the last 8 years, and I have yet to find one better that my Ovations. They are just damned fine instruments. | |
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Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 63
Location: Miami, FL | Well I guess I am preaching to the choir here on this thread. Totally agree that O 12 is far superior than anything out there. I fell for an Elite 1758 about 10 years ago, sold it out of stupidity and returned back with a vengance. (2) 1758'S, (1) GC 1118, (1) 1615, and my holy grail being a 1658CL in a nutmeg color.
While each has its own personality, there remains that one constant trait, the great playability. I agree with the previous posts on increasing the hand strength but find that it does cause me to get away from improving leads.
Nevertheless, would not play another 12.
John | |
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Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 1380
Location: Central Oregon | Originally posted by Old Applause Owner:
Just something I thought I would throw out to those of you who have both 6- and 12-strings. I'm finding that playing 12-strings is making it much easier to play my 6-strings, in terms of making chord changes and the length of time I can play before my fingers get tired.
This is logical, I think. Just curious about others' exprience.
Roger
1976 Applause AA14-4 6-String
1981 Ovation 1118-1 Glen Campbell 12-string
2001 Adamas 1598-MERB Melissa Etheridge 12-String
2003 Celebrity CC01 Spruce Top 6-String
I agree. Overcoming the tension of twice as many strings, albeit smaller ones, requires more physical effort. My 1858 is very easy to play but it's more work than my 6 strings. Not a tremendous amount, but more. If I have time I'll start with the 12 then switch to a 6. It's almost like starting fresh.
Which reminds me:
If that guy that bought my old Korean 12 string ever learned to play past the 5th fret he should be able to crack walnuts in his palm by now. Two at a time. Green ones. We're talking left forearm like Popeye here.
Nah, he probably sold it too. :)
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Does playing a 12-string make 6-string playing easier?