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Location: SoCal | Back in January, I placed a number of posts concerning damage caused to a 1980 1658 slothead a/e Custom Legend 12-str. Had a vertical finish crack from rosette to bridge, from a point halfway down the vertical finish crack, another diagonal finish crack up to the inlaid/binding. Appeared to be shock damage. Ovation will sand down top and refinish for $350 plus the ride. Claim by seller was for $450 placed 1/14, inspected 1/20, was to be settled 1/30, then to be settled by 2/20, check to seller arrived today for $397.10 - no info as to basis for acceptance or settlement amount. Had new box, good packing, OHSC, before and after pictures, etc. Nothing that I found could give me guidance for shipping in the future. In fact, this guitar and a 6759 CL 12-string arrived today at Ovation - sent USPS Priority Mail. The unfortunate part is that I wasn't upset at the damage. As a customer,the claims process (subjective, poor communication) has seriously affected whether I can trust my instruments with UPS. The main reason this was approved was probably the fact that a large furniture shipper (and UPS shipper) packed and shipped the guitar, their shipping department made the claim. Next time? Is it insurance or is it similar to buying a lottery ticket...I know I was lucky this time.
After the factory does a little magic, it will look as it did in 1980. |
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Location: Zion, Illinois | Please don't tell me about UPS horror stories. I bought a hand made Haida Gwaii guitar from the luthier for $1500. He shippped it 3 day select. That was 2/17/2004. I just found out that the earliest delivery date is 2/27/2004. I looked at the status this morning and it said that my guitar was found left at a station in Kentucky. They better NOT charge me for 3 day service.
Bradley |
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Location: On the beach in Southwest Florida | They screw up every once in a while. I guess I have been lucky. Like most claims, it pays to be persistent and prepared with before & after pictures. |
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Location: Minden, Nebraska | Tony: I am in the midst of my own UPS claim struggle over a damaged guitar. An independent company handles the claims, and a UPS exec told my wife that UPS, itself, receives many horror stories about dealing with this company. One suspects it must be cost effective to maintain that relationship, tho.
Bradley: I think the sender can request a refund if he paid for specified air delivery and you didn't get it. |
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Location: Madison, Wisconsin | UPS has a large hub in Catch, Illinois. We often joke about things getting caught in Catch on their way to Wisconsin. |
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Location: SoCal | Does anyone know how to pack and ship a musical instrument so the shipper takes responsibility? Paul B. says he was told to wrap three times with bubble wrap and then place in case (any one have a grande bowl case?) Al says he has been told it needs to be a new, approved box. Taylor Guitars is working with UPS so that infers they are having problems. Ovation places the case in a box - no newspaper, foam cushions, peanuts, etc., yet Al received one of my Ovation orders where the box and case were damaged. Several posts saying must be a UPS packer. Some say claim paid or denied in a couple of weeks; some are at eight months and counting.
Anyone find any of this in writing? Did anyone sign a contract or disclaimer of coverage & exclusions when they paid for the insurance?
Are we paying for insurance where there is no coverage (unless political due to being a big shipper)? If actual insurance, could be considered misrepresentation and/or fraud. Due to regulation under the Carmack Amendment, is there anyone other than the small claim courts that give us relief?
Inherent risk or incompetence?
UPS: Terms and Conditions of Service
http://www.ups.com/using/services/details/terms.html
UPS: Claims/Damages/Losses FAQ http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/tracking/help/faq/claims.html#Who+can+contact+UPS+to+report+a+damaged+package%3F
Common Carrier Liability:
http://www.infowest.com/personal/g/garyh/guitars/shippingprobs.html
I'm not going to beat this to death...however, unless I missed something, it would be helpful if either NAMM or an individual company got UPS and other shippers to define their specific requirements, to include limitations and exclusions. Otherwise, we are not receiving coverage for the "premium" paid. If the only reason we are paying the premium is total loss, possible other forms of insurance may already apply such as homeowners or personal articles floater. Sure, a deductible but still some coverage. |
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Location: NJ | tony
the problem is this.
Ups ships the instrument.
It is insured by a "private" company.
one hand does not know what the other is doing.
they will never know.
I went to battle with UPS a few times. some wins some losses |
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Location: Florida | Well.... tell us what you do AL?
FWIW, Frank Ford (Gryphon) says that if you pack the peghead tightly the rest will hold together, asuuming they dont put an extra 200lbs of stuff on it. |
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Location: NJ | Originally posted by CharlieB:
Well.... tell us what you do AL?
.
in reference to packing? or claims?
most of the time I just pray. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | It has been my experience that the inspector is the key. If the package was obviously damaged in transit, and you payed for insurance, than that's all there is to it. Of course, you sometimes have to argue with the initial UPS contact to get the inspector out, and then the inspector needs to have a brain. Having said that, I only had to do this once several years ago. My recent experiences were not with guitars, but with electronic gear which one would really have to be familiar with to understand the damamge.
I know Alpep has dealt with them much more than I, just wanted to throw in my two pence, and also two notes..
1. DO NOT WRAP THE HEADSTOCK SO THAT IT IS TIGHT IN THE CASE, just do it so that it is snug. If they do drop the case, you don't want the flexibility of the case and box to cause the headstock to break off or crack at the point where it connects to the neck.
2. There is currently a class action suit against UPS for their insurance practices. I think anyone who has insured high value items are automatically part of the class. |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Tony, when I got my Custom Balladeer back from Ovation, the packing job was terrible. Seems the factory just put it in a box, no packing material at all. The box did have a section to hold the part of the case where the headstock goes, but that did little to hold the case. That case took a beating on it's trip here, but it survived ok. Does Ovation send out new guitars with this bad of a packing job? |
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Location: SoCal | Every guitar I've received from Ovation has been packed this way and every one, case and all, has come thru just fine. |
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Location: Florida | Well prayer is good... but as the greenback says and implies, "In God we Trust" (all others pay cash!)
I mean packing AL... any tricks? |
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Location: Florida | Reading up a bit... about the headstock...
I'm in a perplexed situation - as one noted luthier says pack it VERY tight, like its hard to close the case, and one noted Ovation purveyor says dont pack it tight. I'm tendign to believe that some good "bubble wrap" (not to be the celophane we wrapped the otherwise quite starkers Bubbles LaRue in, back in '82) ought to do just fine.
The idea in my thinking is like a motorcycle suspension - hardtail is a real PITA (literally), but springs and no shocks is quite nearly as bad. Controlled bumps - ie, spread out over time rather than instantanious impact - seems to be the ticket there, maybe with git'fiddles too. |
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Location: South Eastern Arizona | Here is what www.frets.com has to say about packing your guitar for shipping.
Packup An Old Guitar
LOL |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Oh yeah, I need to clarify.. I only add packing on used guitars AS NEEDED. As pointed out above, when the guitar is NEW, the axe fits the case just as it needs to, with no slop. The case is sortof suspended in its box by the ends. If they puncture the box, the case is there, and that's what a case is for. As Ovation has shipped literally 1000's of guitars, you can be sure if there was a problem it would have been addressed years ago.
If you want a giggle, go to any music store and see how MOST guitars came in. They are in a carboard box that is in another carboard box in a plastic bag.
Taylor must have a deal with a box manufacturer as I picked up a box from a local music store. He actually sells them for $25.00 each to ship guitars. Frankly, based on bulk box prices, I would guess Taylor pays over $15.00 for these boxes. When all is said and done, it seems like overkill considering it's going to a store that will put the guitar, not the box, in a room for everyone to beat on. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | When I got my Elite LX from aLeX I saw what his secret packing technique was:
inumerable microwave pizza and coca-cola (non diet) cardboard boxes slipped in the sides. :p |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Yes Al knows how to ship a guitar. He puts extra cardboard on the sides. Nice to know someone cares about packing a guitar the right way. |
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Location: NJ | Actually, it's just Al's scheme to not have to take the garbage out so often. ;) |
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Location: Florida | does it matter if its pepperoni or sausage? |
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Location: NJ | Sausage on the roundhole models, pepperoni with the eppaulet models. |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Speaking of pizza. Last night I was shopping with my girlfriend, and she was trying to decide who makes the best frozen pizza. To tell the truth, I don't really like any frozen pizza. I love pizza, but I can't seem to find one that doesn't alway taste frozen. Any ideas as to who makes the best frozen pizza. I figure this group would know. :D |
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Location: Converse, Texas | Paul: Try DiGiorno, or however it's spelled. |
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Location: SoCal | Caution - following wil bore you to death...
When we buy from a reputable dealer, probably not a problem as item is usually replaced.
With private sales, including eBay, We know that many guitars are shipped without damage, appears claims for guitars with minor damage are declined - why do we buy insurance...probably for major damage or item never delivered to destination.
The following assumes that you have paid for the item and, as such, are now the owner. As to coverage under many homeowner/renters forms, usually no coverage for shipping. If you have a personal articles floater (PAF) and you are not using the property for business (performing), most PAFs will provide coverage for acquisitions for 30 days...there is usually a deductible.
Should you buy insurance through shipper when you have a PAF? Your choice. If you have a PAF and buy insurance from the shipper, your insurance PAF is secondary. However, if shipper delays or declines, you can file under the PAF, PAF pays off to limit minus deductible and then subrogates against the shipper's insurance. They fight the claim for you as they want their funds back. You get the repair or funds, they fight.
Recent UPS claim for 1658, should have had my PAF pay off, then go after UPS. The PAF is for a couple of other guitars but the 1658 was covered as a new acquisition. |
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Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | Thanks, Tony. That WASN'T boring and was quite instructional.
Now, back to pizza....I like Red Baron, myself.
Roger
1976 Applause AA14-4 6-String
1981 Ovation 1118-1 Glen Campbell 12-string
2001 Adamas 1598-MERB Melissa Etheridge 12-String
2003 Ovation 1777-4 Legend 6-string |
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Location: Tennessee | OK, you guys are scaring me here ... no sooner do I pack up one of my guitars and place it into the hands of UPS (pronounced oops?) to send it back to the Mothership , then I find myself reading this thread. Ay caramba! (For the record, I have had maybe 6-8 guitars shipped to me UPS, both new and used, and all arrived without incident.) So I packed the Viper in its case (it still fits snugly), put it into a spare guitar box, filled the gaps with gently wadded newspaper, and duct taped the whole damn thing closed. Oh, yeah, I insured the thing, too. I figure if there's an issue, my turn was up, and at least it'll be at the right place and in the proper hands to make it all better.
Frozen pizza? California Pizza Kitchen, hands down. Of course, the better choice is just to buy some of that poppin' fresh pizza dough stuff, slather on some pizza sauce (the best stuff comes from NJ), lay on your favorite toppings, and you got a winner in about 15 minutes. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | It never ceases to amaze me how easily lead astray we all are on post topics!
The best frozen pizza is NOT Frozen pizza - you are better off getting a bunch of english muffins, tomato paste and some cheese. To entertain and occupy your kids spread out a bunch of choices and let them "build" and decorate their own - While you and Mom sip Chianti in the basket bottle. It's a good way to get rid of leftovers too.
Just another tip from your Uncle Woody. |
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Location: NJ | frozen pizza? I think that is when the stouffers french bread pizzas were on sale and I just dumped them out of the box and into the freezer.
I am not an expert on packing. BUT I do ship 1-2 dz items a week. With that said I really don't want to see any of them back so I basically overpack.
IMHO the standard ovation boxes are too thin. I have had a few of the guitars come with punctured cases over the past nearly 10 years I have been dealing in Ovations. This just happened on Monday. It is rare. I can think of maybe 3-5 times and we are talking hundreds of guitars.
So if the guitar is an ovation in the original case slack the strings and shut the case you are finished. Any other guitar make sure the guitar has no play in the case. if it does take up the slack with newspaper pr bubble wrap. secure the headstock but not overly tight I think that could cause more harm than good.
If you have a box with the original stabilizers USE THEM. That is what they are made for and they work really well. Then slide in some extra cardboard on the sides. WhY? this helps to take the blow if the first cardboard is penetrated and then the case is not damaged. It also helps so that there is no slack in the box.
If you do not have the stabilizers then get creative. As Kim Keller once told me he never had a guitar that was packed in newspaper come damaged, Styrofoam peanuts settle and then you get air bubbles and such. if you use them make sure you put some solid stuff in there too.
I recyle all the stuff that comes into my house styrofoam old boxes newspaper etc. ONe of the best things are the coffee/soda carriers you get at fast food places. they are really tough and can withstand a lot of pressure. put a few of them in there and you have a box that is like IRON.
Plastic bags work too, but the main thing that I cannot stress enough is to have the case stabilized in the box. if it moves in the box then you did not pack it right. end of discussion.
Hamer probably ships their guitars in some of the best boxes in the industry, but I have had them come come busted open too.
Also alway orientate the heavy part to the bottom of the box. I have had guitars shipped to me headstock down several times. I have no clue what that guy was thinking.
In the past week I had 3 items damaged via UPs
first a case that was packed by a big box store in florida. thery just put the guitar in the case and NOTHING else in the box. the case came cracked.
the second a guitar and case shipped from the factory where a heavy object hit the box went through and cracked the case.
the third an amp that was packaged poorly and was so heavy it bent the power tranny on the amp chassis.
In closing bubble wrap is your friend. I buy it in 5Ft x 125 ft rolls and not that 1/4" stuff you have to buy the 1/2 " bubbles so that they don't break under the weight of something. I have shipped guitars in gig bags by wrapping them in bubble wrap and then packing the box well. it works |
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Location: Scotland | Frozen pizza is the gastronomic equivilent of a Taylor guitar. Ok if there's nothing else, but when your're done you just feel you needed something better. |
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Location: NJ | I just wanted to add that Ovation or should I say KMC has to use shipping cartons approved by UPS, so if you ship a guitar in the original carton and UPS denies the claim but they approved the box....do you see where I am going with this? |
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Location: Florida | Al, every amp I ever shipped with its speakers attached to the baffle, was damaged in shipment. In addition to that, several that had the speakers removed, but the chassis attached to the cabinet were damaged.
If I were shipping an amp - speakers out, shipped seperately. On all but the very smallest amps - chassis out, shipped seperately. Its more hassle, but a replacement cabinet, or even moreso, replacement speakers just destroy the tone and value of an old amp.... its worth the hassle.
Last one I shipped (nice 65 VibroChamp, tiny), had speaker out, tubes packed in a box inside the cabinet. Speaker and cabinet/chassis together. Something of Deluxe size or bigger, and it gets totally broken down though. Ya just gotta. |
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Location: SoCal | quote from Al: "so if you ship a guitar in the original carton and UPS denies the claim but they approved the box....do you see where I am going with this?"
Like maybe a black hole??
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Location: NJ | If it's UPS, it's a "Brown Hole". |
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| Man you guy's had to post this message now !!!!! I have my Adamas coming from AL should be here tomorrow! AL !!! ??!!@(&^^$! Al!!! Tell me about the packing again will ya? I love to here all about the peanuts, and foam, and tripple box, the incense rituals, sign of the cross, and the UPS personal care and.......I'm Sh*@@tin a brick here! Randy |
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Location: NJ | chill.
It'll get ther fine. :cool: |
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| I know Figure I might sacrifice a chicken anyway? |
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Location: NJ | Just get a bucket of KFC.
. . . make you WASH your friggin' fingers when the Adamas gets there!! |
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Location: Florida | KFC? Kaman Fret Conditioner? Finger-pickin
good? |
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Location: NJ | cliff
tell him about the guitar I sent you. |
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Location: NJ | $100 Chinese "dobro".
No HSC. Gig bag.
Arrived in PRISTINE condition!!
I didn't get any cardboard pizza boxes, but DID get a bunch of those papier-machie-kinda "holders" that you carry four coffee/soda cups in from the concession stand (those things worked REALLY good!!).
If your new guitar is coming from Al, the only thing I'd worry about is whether or not the UPS truck takes out your mailbox in the driveway.
relax (and enjoy). |
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| OK I feel better! F!!!k it - I'm gonna kill that dam chicken anyway! It's been a long cold winter up here. I have to post another question again |
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| OK All at one time now "DEAR SAINT ADAMAS PLEASE WATCH OVER UPS TRACKING NUMBER" 9993337278383887661983655416 and forgive the slaughter of that dam chicken! ! AMEN |
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Posts: 613
Location: Zion, Illinois | Originally posted by Bradley:
Please don't tell me about UPS horror stories. I bought a hand made Haida Gwaii guitar from the luthier for $1500. He shippped it 3 day select. That was 2/17/2004. I just found out that the earliest delivery date is 2/27/2004. I looked at the status this morning and it said that my guitar was found left at a station in Kentucky. They better NOT charge me for 3 day service.
Bradley
They modified the posting and delivered it yesterday. The box had water damage, the writting was running down the side of the box. There was a two inch hole in the side of the box. The top of the box had been cut open and left that way! The good news is that the luthier really did a great job packing and their doesn't seem to be any damage to the guitar.
He did mention that the shipping should be free, I'll have to keep an eye out for the bill.
Bradley
p.s. This guitar is a mini-jumbo Indian rosewood #34. My paurlor guitar is an Indian rosewood #35. Both beauties. |
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UPS damage, sometimes they pay