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Location: Converse, Texas | And should I stay away from them? |
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Location: Upper Left USA | My sumation of what has passed over these posts is that each case is special. The batch of 2003Collectors shot down to $799 may have been due to electronic problems which were repaired - I'd buy one in a heartbeat.
Other items with scratches or nicks, you can ask for pictures - and sometimes save a hunk of cash for a small issues.
In each case ask specific questions and go with reliable outfits. |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I have never seen a factory second with "scratches and nicks". I think others can clarify, but to my knowledge a Factory second has only a COSMETIC flaw. Those discounted guitars, were not seconds. By cosmetic flaw, it would be something in the finish that only showed up when the guitar was polished at the very end of the process. Usually one of those "hold to the light, at just the right angle, looking across the edge..." etc etc etc. Sometimes they look worse than others, but I do not believe any physical or mechanical defect leaves the factory as a "2nd".
Bottom line... I too would buy one in a heartbeat and have on several occastions. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | In the words of ed McMann "You are correct Sir"!
I was confusing some of the "Scratch and Dent" specials with the 2nds. As a punishment send me one of your guitars and I will be glad to clean and restring it! eventually I may send it back. |
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Location: Scotland | I have a 68 Deluxe Balladeer which has a "2" branded into the back of the headstock, indicating a second. There's no way of telling on a 36 year-old guitar why it was originally designated as a second, but it's one of the best playing & sounding guitars I own. I wouldn't let it put you off. |
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Location: NJ | all seconds are marked with a 2.
FRG factory reconditioned guitar is another designation.
these guitars can have minor finish flaws or had electronics problems a failed tuning gear etc.
Nothing wrong with them they just have a lesser warranty and are not perfect. |
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| I do not know what’s a “Factory Second” but I’m gonna show you my ADAMAS SN 16348 “FACTORY FIRST”
It’s lovely isn’t it?
Thanks
Pat |
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Location: NJ | Pat
I am now considering these pictures spam. You made your point you were asked to comment when you had more information after you contacted Ovation service.
As far as we on this board are concerned this is a closed issue.
I don't want to pull your posts, or lock them down or deactivate your account, but if this behavior continues those are my alternatives.
So, Until you have more useful information these pics are spam.
edited to add that I would like to ask the membership not to respond to any of these posts unless there is new information |
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| Alpep
I've already posted the new information about OVATION's answer to my problem in the "Warranty Issues revisited" thread; probably you didn't read that post yet.
If you want I can start a new thread with that info.
About my behavior, I think I was not offensive/rude at all, probably I just think in a different way than you guys.
Thanks
Pat |
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Location: SoCal | Pat:
I just want to assure you that I think the same way that you do. In fact I just took my 1996 Toyota with 215,000 miles on it back to Toyota and demanded that they rebuild the engine under warranty because there was obviously something wrong with it from the beginning. It should have lasted at least 500,000 miles.
Jeez Pat, give it a rest. Is it that you just like to argue and piss people off? Send the guitar to Ovation. If you haven't already pissed them off, then they'll work with you to fix the guitar at a good price. But if I worked at Ovation, I wouldn't cut an ass like you any slack.
Have you ever given any thought that somebody damaged the guitar and what you are looking at is a crappy repair? |
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| Paul
I honestly think you should check out the pictures again carefully.
Can’t you see that that defect was made at the factory when they installed the neck?
How can a user even ABUSING the guitar do that? THAT’S IMPOSIBLE!!!
Yes yes take a look again … with a “critical” eye not with a “fan” one
Mine is a FACTORY FIRST TOP OF THE LINE GUITAR; I won’t pay a penny for their mistake
Thanks
Pat |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Pat, you keep saying that the defect was made at the factory. If YOU are not the original owner, HOW do you that is true? And THAT is the whole point of the warranty being offered to the original owner only. How do you know the guitar wasn't left in a hot car trunk or something like that by the previous owner? Do you even know if the previous owner was the original owner? Maybe at the time it was built, Ovation saw that it had bad really problems and threw it in the trash only for some guy to fish it out at night and sell it to you? The sad truth here is that you got screwed on your purchase and I'm sorry about that. But that is not the fault of Ovation or any other guitar maker and it is unrealistic to expect them to make good on it free of charge. Dave |
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Location: NJ | Please do not respond to Pat.
He seeks attention and when you give it to him he wins. Just do not respond.
thanks |
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| Standingovation
How do I know?
Well, I’m an engineer, I’m not blind, and sometimes I use my common sense.
If you take a look to the pictures, can you tell me how the tip of the neck can just in one side arise?? The string tension suggests exactly the opposite!!!
But well, we can consider the guitar was in a hot car trunk (as you said) w/o strings and the truss rod tension sent the neck back (SciFi) can you tell me why the gap (neck/top) is completely filled up with glue????
I like SciFi but just on movies…
This is a MADE IN OVATION MISTAKE that so far they don’t want to accept
Alpep
Do you think that asking people to avoid talking to me is the way to address this?
I think we are adults and we can address our problems in a better way.
Thanks
Pat |
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Location: Florida | Personally, to me, with some mild experience in luthiery, that looks like an amateur attempt at a neck reset.
Lets assume, for whatever reason - abnormal tuning, heat, total lack of setup geometery, use of leftover bridge suspension cables from the Verrazano bridge as strings, improper storage... whatever - lets say the neck needed a reset, or somebody thought it needed a reset.
Typically, the neck angle will need to be adjusted to bring the strings back down close to the fretboard and still allow some elevation to the bridge. Remember, if we lower the bridge too far, we get crap-o-la tone and volume. So the neck angle is adjusted to keep the bridge relationship correct.
When that happens, there is usually a gap under the fingerboard extension that must be filled, OR, the fingerboard must be made to "fall off" after teh joining fret (12 or 14) in order to keep it on the top of the guitar and avoid the "gap". A gap just like what you have by the way.
On LX models, the fingerboard is sunk into the neck, so its supported, and so a change in angle can be accomplished with no gap. Taylor uses a similar method, and both methods are technically intricate to do in a production environment (at least to have them look good).
So, someone must have unbolted the neck, unglued the fingerboard, shimmed or altered the neck joint, and tried to fill the "gap" with glue, or better yet, they tried to create a falloff style arrangement by glueing and fingerboard down to the CF top - with the resulting stress being that the fingerboard lifted on its own accord later.
If you look at how Ovation installs necks, you'll see that this is quite nearly impossible to do and if anything we'd see the reverse happen from a factory neck in need of reset, ie, depression, not a gap.
Sorry man, caveat emptor.
If ya want, I'll give you $50 for it (and get it fixed myself by Kim's Kommando's at Ovation) |
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Location: Boise Idaho | To Alpep...
This is (or I mean was) an outstanding thread. Excellent information on FRGs providing good information for people to look back on when considering purchasing one. Collecting information from the members of this forum who actually own FRGs or 2nds... This is exactly the info I was looking for before I purchased my 2003. (which by the way I am still very happy with). This is the thread maybe someone will study when considering purchasing one of your 2001 collectors. (Beautiful guitars I might add)... Anyway... Please consider removing the "Massota Virus" from this thread. It should be contained in the Warranty BS thread.
Thanks, |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | Pat, if you would put as much energy into getting in touch with Kim at Ovation, and making plans with him on getting the guitar fixed as you are in annoying everyone here, you would have one great guitar on you hands! |
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| CharlieB
You talk a lot just proving that you know but please help me to apply that knowledge to MY case…
My neck is “COMPLETELY” glued, does not show ANY evidence that was reset or ANYTHING it is was just BADLY SET.
The top is a CARBON sheet anything weird (a bad neck reset, hot car trunk, martian invasion, etc ) and for sure you’ll get marks, I HAVE NO ONE MARK ON MY GUITAR.
Then…
Hey BTW do you know if the caveat emptor concept you mentioned many times is the OVATION official policy?
1619CustomLegendguy
I just contacted customer support and their answer was you’re not covered… but I’ll try your suggestion
Thanks
Pat |
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Location: Lafayette, Louisiana | I cannot comment any longer due to orders from a higher power. ;) |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | Al - I promose this will be my LAST post on this topic. But I actually have some factual expertise to add here ...
Dear Pat, I end my participation in this thread with the following three comments:
1. Like you, I am also an engineer
2. Like you, I am also not blind
3. UN-like you, I know when to cut my losses, get the neck fixed and shut up about it.
Dave (click, click, over and out, never again to respond ...) |
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Location: SoCal | Dave:
Must be nice to be able to claim to be an engineer. I'd do that, but since the accident, they won't let me near the train anymore. |
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Location: Converse, Texas | Didn't know my post was gonna go downhill ... |
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Location: SoCal | How'd you know part of what happened with the train accident? |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Some of you Train people will understand...
No Humping! |
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Location: SoCal | Now that kinda gets into the other reason they don't let me near the trains. |
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Location: SE Michigan | In response to Masotta's complaint, I have seen brand new Adamas models with the same open glue seam on the treble side of the finger board. It put me off buying a brand new CVT a couple months ago. I have seen better caulk jobs around bath-tubs. In my opinion it was not acceptable for a $1500 guitar. But I am also under the impression that this is considered normal on the Adamas. Forgive me for not having read all of Masotta's issues in previous threads, but I thought this was a public forum and people were allowed to speak there minds. Even if you disagree doesn't he still have a right to speak? |
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Location: Scotland | Brian, We have all seen defects in new guitars, regardless of manufacturer. The defect in the guitar is not the issue, nor is freedom of speech. The issue is simply this: Should a guitar manufacturer offer a warranty to anyone other than the original purchaser? Fender, Gibson, Martin, Taylor, Ovation & every other guitar maker on the planet have all made a number of dogs over the years. That, like it or not, is the nature of mass-production. If you asked any of them to put one right under the terms of their warranty without a sales receipt & a warranty card they'd rightly tell you to go screw yourself. However if you could prove you were the original owner they'd sort it. This fuckwit expects to have a guitar which he bought used & found out later didn't meet his expectations to be repaired by the factory free of charge. Now that I've brought you up to speed on the subject can we please let it go. I wasn't going to respond to these threads anymore Brian, but it seems you post first & read later. |
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Location: SoCal | Brian, the other point is that the "fuckwit" (good description), asked his question, got a ton of responses, non of which agreed with him, and then kept making the same point over and over again. Like a 4 year old who doesn't want to listen to anybody but just wants what he wants.
If you go back thru the archives, you'll find that there is very spirited discussion on this board. People don't agree. But the vast majority of posters are civil and polite. In over 2 years of this board, this is only the second or third time that somebody has just flat out pissed off the vast majority (in this case, that should read "everybody") of posters. This discussion has gone through several threads, not just this one. |
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| BrianT
Finally one person with an unbiased point of view! You !
THANKS for your kind words and common sense.
I wasn’t aware at all that this defect was/is common on ADAMAS guitars (as you said $1500+).
Do you think that a defect like this is not manufacturer responsibility after the first owner sells the guitar?
Just in case you didn’t read my previous postings I consider this defect is gonna be OVATION responsibility FOREVER !
Paul Templeman
Thanks you too, the second person accepting OVATION can let a guitar like mine go from the factory to the street w/o too much trouble.
Funny there is another thread saying that a FACTORY SECOND is a guitar that has not more than “cosmetic” flaws when guitars like mine are $1500+ “FACTORY FIRST”.
moody, p.i.
let me remind you that I didn’t insult anybody, I wasn’t rude, I wasn’t impolite etc etc.
And yes I’m gonna keep saying what I’ve said cos I consider it fair.
Thanks again
Pat |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by masotta:
Paul Templeman
Thanks you too, the second person accepting OVATION can let a guitar like mine go from the factory to the street w/o too much trouble.
Funny there is another saying that a FACTORY SECOND is a guitar that has not more than “cosmetic” flaws when guitars like mine are $1500+ “FACTORY FIRST”.
Thanks again
Pat[/QB]
Don't thank me Masotta, I am simply a realist who has many years experience in the music retail industry. The fact that you think I was suporting you in any way sickens me and is indicative of your crass stupidy & ignorance. You need medication and/or therapy. Just to clarify, the term "fuckwit" is not a compliment. I'm outta this one |
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| Paul Templeman
Well Paul I considered you able to understand my sarcasm …
But I was wrong.
It’s amazing how people can get too exited and insult when somebody just thinks differently, most of you disagree with me but I didn’t insult anybody did I?
Could you please define fuckwit? :-)
Thanks
Pat |
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Location: NJ |  |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by masotta:
But I was wrong.
at least you're consistent.
Usually I would not enter into a battle of wits with an unarmed man but to answer your question, the definintion of Fuckwit is: Person whose wits are fucked, simple, intellectually challenged, rowing with one oar, torque-wrench short of a toolbox, ribeye short of a barbeque, too many games without a helmet, a moron. Is that enough fucking SARCASM for you? |
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| Paul Templeman
Gottcha, then fuckwit is another insult. Cool, I've found really very interesting people in this board...
Thanks
Pat |
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Location: Scotland | No, if you read back through the posts it's not "another" insult, it was in fact my first to you, my other responses to were mostly factual, measured & reasonable, so you are, as always "WRONG!" again!
I'm finished. This guy is unbeleivable |
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| Paul Templeman
Sorry Paul then fuckwit is just only your “first” insult to my person.
Anyway you’ll probably agree that you were not the only one here using the “insult” as a dialog resource…
Thanks
Pat |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | This is a family oriented board, and as such hurling insults will not be tolerated and the offenders can consider themselves on notice. Continuation of this behavior will result in suspension of your account.
This board is not intended to be a forum to promote any individual agenda be it from a single person, groups or commercial or private entity. It is a private community of Ovation enthusiasts from around the world, encompassing a variety of backgrounds, ages, and interests. All opinions and discussions are welcome without fear of censorship, with the only "rule" being to be kind to each other. When said discussions and/or opinions become disruptive and/or repetitive and degenerate into personal agenda, we reserve the right to close threads, remove posts, and ultimately suspend participation. |
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What is a "FACTORY SECOND" guitar?