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Joined:
March 2004
Posts: 11
Location: Lombard, IL | I realize this isn't exactly Ovation-related, but as this is the only guitar forum/community I'm kind of active in I'll throw myself on your tender mercies in my search for knowledge, to wit;
Are there any techniques or exercises to help develop the ability to sing as one plays? Or do I have some kind of mental block?
I sang in a garage band in the early 80's. I even played guitar on 3-4 songs and recall doing some chorus vocals in a couple of those songs.
However, as I've just recently taken up playing again, after 20-odd years I find that I am absolutely incapable of coordinating my mouth with my playing. Even on something as hyper-simple as the DADADADADADA of "Tom Dooley", as soon as I open my mouth I find I involuntarily STOP strumming.
There is an element of self-consciousness involved; though I do have a passable voice I am too shy to sing in front of others (although I do harbor a belief that if I can accompany myself I would be able to transcend that). Yet even when I'm alone in the house and can play/sing to my heart's content, I still find that I'm unable to do both together.
Do I need therapy???
Any ideas/exercises that you all might reccommend would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Kevin | |
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Joined:
May 2002
Posts: 3005
Location: Las Cruces, NM | Kevin
I would suggest that you get some sheet music of songs you know well and, privately, as you say you are a little shy, try to play the chord changes with a simple rythym as you sing. The reading might preoccupy you and keep you from thinking about what it sounds like etc.. I say use songs that you know and like as you will then not be learning the songs, but learning to SING the songs. As you progress you will lose some shyness when it begins to sound the way you want it to, then you might want someone to hear you.
Just a suggestion, I have a book of my favorite songs with the chord changes that I frequently work from so I don't have to remember all the words late at night.
Bailey | |
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Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13986
Location: Upper Left USA | Not a foriegn event. Having relocated from a different church and now playing in "The Adventure Cafe" at Adventure of Life. The point being that I am hearing songs I have never heard before. The possibility of singing and playing simultaneously at practice is gone sometimes.
The answer is "Practice, practice, practice"! | |
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Joined:
August 2002
Posts: 623
Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Interesting to me, as I've started teaching again, I find that so many of the things I do while playing have become so instinctual or habitual, that it is actually VERY HARD to break it down into what I'm actually doing, in order to show someone how to do it. It's like teaching someone how to tie a shoe lace. It's harder to think about it, break it down into sizable chunks, than to actually do it.
Singing and playing simultaneously is along those lines. It is a practice thing, and the good news is the more you do it the more it just begins to "happen" without much thought. Of course, unusual rhythms (either guitar or vocal) take practice for anyone.
My suggestion would be this:
1) Try just strumming a simple 1&2&3&4& pattern on the guitar, but stay just on one chord for now (down, up, down, up down, etc.). Once you can do that evenly just try singing 1, 2, 3, 4 over and over on those beats (or "la" if counting is too distracting), picking one single note that's in key. Once you have that down smooth, try singing "1&2&3&4&". It shouldn't be that hard because your arm is moving in the same exact rhythm as your mouth...there's no real complication there. If this is hard, just work at it S-L-O-W until you get it, and slowly speed it up. Once you're comfortable with that, try adding another note to your "melody"...
2)Once that feels easy, I would try choosing a simple song-one that has straight 1&2&3&4& strumming, like the Eagles "take is easy". Take the first verse, and if you have the sheet music, draw light pencil lines connecting where beats 1,2,3,4 are down to the corresponding lyric word. These will be your "practicing" words to emphasize. They will line up with your down stroke strums. Sing it with those accents, emphasizing those beats, purposefully for now. Yes it will sound a little mechanical and weird, but the idea is to coordinate yourself to start, not be a master performer just yet-so it probably will not sound good (practice alone where you won't feel mortified if you suck-practicing is always about getting correct technique in order to sound good down the line). It would sound something like this: I'm RUNnin DOWN the ROAD, TRYin ta LOOSin MY LOAD (capital letters here emphasising the down beats)...etc. Give that a shot. Just try one line at a time, and don't move on to the next one until you've really got it. Soon, you should have the whole song. Again, do it as slow as you need. Then, play along with the cd, once you've got it, to "get" more of the feel.
3)I find that I really need to "own" a song...that is know it so well I don't have to think about it...before I play it in public. The stress of not knowing all the lyrics, all the chords, or being sure about any part of it together, is likely to throw me into a train wreck live. I'm thinking about so many things while I'm playing out, it's hard to have any added stress. I have to be able to think about "Is the gear working, timing on?, harmonies tight?, is it too loud?, why is my stomach gurgling?, oh shit that's a hard chord coming up, why is that person in the audience clapping off time (can't watch her or I'll go off time)? Oh there's a bar fight over there, now that person looks bored..." there's a gazillion distracting thoughts happening while I'm playing out. If I'm not on semi auto pilot and tons of muscle memory, forget it I'd go insane. If I think about what the next chord is, I'll panic. Often I just watch my hand go to it, and feel blessed it was the right one! (becuase I probably had no clue at that momentif I thought about it!).
The flip side is that it's after the first once or twice that I play a song in front of an audience that it becomes "mine" (in the sense of comfort playing it out). All the trouble spots become evident, and I can later practice those. After that, I don't have to think about it anymore.
Jamming is a different gig-the thrill comes from playing on the edge of a train wreck, and just having fun with the thrill of it not happening. It's a different spirit to playing, and a lot of fun. But, if you want to keep the song going with the singing, you do have to own it on some level first, otherwise you'll be wasting time for everyone, and it will be ugly.
Good luck. This books has ended.
Johnny | |
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Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13986
Location: Upper Left USA | Quote: "I find that I really need to "own" a song...that is know it so well I don't have to think about it...before I play it in public. The stress of not knowing all the lyrics, all the chords, or being sure about any part of it together, is likely to throw me into a train wreck live. "
Is that why "Louie, Louie" is so popular? It is tied with "Magic Man" for the official Washington State Song by the way! | |
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Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7222
Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | I'm gonna hit this from a different angle. I can sing and play at the same time, but I don't like too. One takes away from the other in my case, so in most bands I've been in, on the songs I played, I didn't sing, and when I sang, I didn't play, or I "did the Nugent" as I call it.
Ted doesn't sing and play all that well. So he does all the riffs, and leads, and sings inbetween. If you ever saw Ted in the 80's live, he was not the primary voice of Cat Scratch fever, you can actually hear the two parts (although both sound very similar) on the studio album.
My point is, a LOT of guitarists can't sing and play as well as they'd like to. Some, with the help of other musicians, sing the parts that they need to, and then play the parts that highlight their guitar.
My suggestion is to do what's comfortable. If singing and playing isn't your thing, get a partner to join you and share the load.
My philosphy on music is that you can practice and learn just about anything. But if it doesn't come naturally, it isn't going to sound right, so what's the point?
I too will qoute...
"I find that I really need to "own" a song...that is know it so well I don't have to think about it...before I play it in public. "
Ok occastionally we all have to go out on a limb because we can... but this is a good ideal to follow. | |
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Joined:
August 2002
Posts: 623
Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | Miles-
I'm with you...to an extent. I understand what you mean and can see your point very well. I ALSO think that if we only did what was comfortable we'd never reach our potential, much less beyond it.
Seriously, when you start playing, guitar is NOT always a comfortable thing to play...fingers get sore, coordination is tough. It takes a certain amount of drive and determination to reach a level of comfort with playing it, so it feels natural. Often anything new takes a certain amount of courage to have a break through.
Still doesn't mean that we all want to play and sing professionally or can just becuase we are a guitarist. We may prefer one to the other, or still may not have enough talent to do it on the level of someone like Ted. We may just prefer to stick with guitar over singing because that's simply the part that is enjoyable.
If you're 5'5" that may limit your ability to become a pro basketball player...but it doesn't mean that you can't practice it and become extremely good at it. Never the less, it may not be comfortable (before becoming that good) much of the time, to play with guys much taller than you. Doesn't mean you can't bust your ass and work at it, and have fun trying, and possibly get some really great results.
Someone may just want to learn to play and sing so they can lead friends around a campfire. Doesn't mean they have to be a natural master of it to accomplish that-but it will take practice if it doesn't come natural at first.
I think it really depends on what you're goals are. If you want to play and sing pro like dave mathews, who has some serious coordination going on to play those parts and sing, and you can't play a basic song and sing it yet...then you might want to rethink the goal, or start really busting some butt, and then see down the line if the goal is still feasable.
Some of the greatest people(of anything in any field) became that way because they wouldn't accept the limits that they were given or told they had.
-J | |
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Joined:
March 2004
Posts: 11
Location: Lombard, IL | Great responses, thanks, John (Strummin) especially for the extended ideas for exercises. I appreciate you taking the time.
Guess my frustrations are really running ahead of me. I've only been playing again for the equivalent of about 4 months over the last year, but i know practice is the key. I had the ability and the muscle memory in the distant past to chunk out three or four power chords and bleat some choruses (Billy Squire's "My Kind of Lover" comes to mind- couldn't sing that high for the lead vocal), so I'll get it again.
But thanks, really.
Oh and just to reply to what John said about how easily one gets distracted from something that is otherwise automatic- we did three original songs in my old garage, amongst the standard covers. Our drummer, easily the most accomplished musician in the band- did a thing where he syncopated the beats of the last measure before the chorus.
One night in practice the bass player suddenly stopped and asked him what he was doing there, because it was screwing him up. Well we all pointed out to him that it had been ever so! Somehow he'd just suddenly noticed it, and it threw him. He argued that it WAS different, but we were finally able to convince him that nothing had changed.
Took it from the top, and it was never an issue again. But it was weird... | |
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Joined:
January 2004
Posts: 648
Location: Florida | FWIW, it's known that Clapton has a bitch of a time with this. Lots of people do. I do.
For me I REALLY gotta get into the song, especially when the song goes one way, and the guitar part goes the other way, ie, a little run that goes up while the melody goes down, or an counter rhythm flourish that just aint part of the words.
Takes lots o'practice. First I play and THINK the words. Then I sing and THINK of myself playing (we're talking "mind" guitar here folks). When I can imagain myself playing the changes and runs, and can get the words out... then I can usually get the two together. But not always.... just the way it be. Like Clapton and the original Layla. Its nice to know misery keeps NICE company. | |
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Joined:
April 2003
Posts: 2503
Location: Fayetteville, NC | Just my 2 cents worth.
There are certain songs when learning that can be quite difficult to sing and play. What i do is listen to the song(recorded version) to make sure that i have the melody right. THen when i have the progression down, I start by just humming slowly along eventually building up to the full blown final product.
If you are really trying to copy a song styling and preform it just like you heard it..It can be difficult because none of us are say
Harry Chapin, Eric Clapton, Jim Croce..etc.
I find that like Johnny said,..in making a song a song your own,..you find your own style of doing it. It won't be a carbon copy of the recorded version, just close enough that people will recognize it,..but the final product turns out to be YOUR version of said song. Practice, Practice , Practice! When you get weary of working on that same ole tune...take a break,..maybe play something else and return to it later. Before it's all over with you'll have the patterns and the vocals down pat.
Art least works for me. | |
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Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922
Location: Canton (Detroit), MI | This is timely, as I have a similar problem. I'm attending a workshop on "Singing For The Shy" at Elderly tomorrow morning. My problem has been that I get the words and chords messed up relative to each other, because I am shy about singing, even in front of my wife, so I don't practice.
My solution has been to go back to folk and spiritual songs that I know well, that are simpler, like "Motherless Child", and "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot". To work on something I already know and put the words and accompaniment together. I intend to work to more difficult songs from there.
Roger
1976 Applause AA14-4 6-String
1978 Ovation 1617-4 Legend 6-string
1981 Ovation 1118-1 Glen Campbell 12-string
2001 Adamas 1598-MERB Melissa Etheridge 12-String
2003 Ovation 1777-NAT Legend 6-string | |
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Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10582
Location: NJ | I don't know what is worse my guitar playing, my singing or the combination of the two together!!!!
Funny how we use just our two hands yet there are drummers that use both hands and both feet and sing also. OK they are drummers but still the really good ones can use each part independently from each other.
I find some tunes easy for me to sing (if you want to call it singing) and play. The tunes that are difficult in chord structure or rhythm are the ones that give me trouble.
my philosophy has always been play loud play fast and then run to the back of the stage when they start to throw stuff. | |
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Joined:
February 2003
Posts: 99
Location: St. Petersburg, FL USA | Kevin, looks to me like you have a boatload of good ideas here. I'm picking up a few things, for sure!! So here's my 2 cents...
I play Christian Contemporary worship songs at church. There are a ton of acoustic guitar-oriented songs coming out daily in this category that are very challenging, but a lot of fun to play. Anyway, I was in the same boat you are, picked up the guitar 10 years ago after a 15 yr. "break," and all the stuff I wanted to play was brand new. We'd have our little "get-togethers" where we had a nice sound system & an "open mic" kind of approach, and I wished I had a song or two that I "owned" so I could share, too.
I came up with a goal that I would know 10 songs absolutely cold so when those opportunities came, I could contribute. I picked songs I really liked, not necessarily the easiest ones, but I got the list going. This has helped tremendously.
Also, let me relate an experience from a specific song (God of Wonders by Paul Baloche for those that might be familiar...) I had recently. This song has acoustic guitar featured prominently, and I used to think I knew it pretty well... that is until my Wed. night group attempted it. We put it on hold until I figured it out. Just 3 simple chords in the beginning over & over, but the vocal part does NOT line up with the strumming. At home, I kept playing the mp3 file & trying it, but I got to the point where I had convinced myself I would NEVER get that part. Well, that decision lasted about 10 seconds... Determination is key.
I took the first 3 words & associated chords & kept playing a "loop" & singing along over & over & over. 5 minutes went by & I started to get it. I added 2 or 3 more words & "expanded the loop." I was careful to be sure I was getting it EXACTLY right before continuing (only PERFECT practice makes perfect...). I can now play & sing it in my sleep, but this song took a lot of tedious practice. It was well worth it, though.
So that's how I do it. Break it down into the biggest "chunk" that I can handle (sometimes the chunk is more like a sliver) and work out from there, and do it over and over and over and over.
USUALLY, only a small part of a given song is hard to learn, when you get to the easy parts you pick up some steam.
Good luck & great topic!!! | |
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Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 613
Location: Zion, Illinois | Gosh, I'm still working on my "Walking and chewing gum" problem.
Step, chew, step, chew, step, trip, "DOH!" | |
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Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13986
Location: Upper Left USA | Don't leave out the Johnny Cash method:
Strum a chord with a 2 note base line and m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m your way into the song!
Where's Goober when you need em? | |
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Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 1380
Location: Central Oregon | Hells Bells! You guys are making this *way* too complicated! Take two shots of Jose Cuervo, wash 'em down with a few Corona's & you'll be playing & singing "Barnacle Bill The Sailer" to your mother in law!
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Playing *and* singing? He'p meh!