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Location: Upper Left USA | I have been reading the post talking about the “phasing out” of shallow bowls and I thought I’d stimulate a string and add my 3 pesos.
The majority of “Ovation Non-Fans” I have run into usually relate back to a situation where an Ovation player, unplugged, tried to dominate the sound or thought that theirs was the better instrument because they could “cut through” the mix. They can relate how they felt trampled on or how the instrument was tinny or shrill. If I pull the thread I may learn that it was more often a shallow body they were playing.
Now I know that a shallow body does not mean the guitar has to sound high ended but I have been an O Fan for quite a while and have tried many. The problem is that when someone’s first exposure to an Ovation is from an over zealous lead player or because the one they could reach in the music store was either shallow or panel – it will probably be the last time they pick one up!
I like to let these people play/hear mine and try to bring them around.
I have been on the stage with my Pacemaker – right next to the Bass Player – the feedback problem was awful. My CL 12 has the “notch” problem solver. I can see a need for shallow bodies when on stage. Excellent Engineering solutions!
I tend to gravitate toward the deeper sounds myself. I have discussed my Poor Man’s Baritone and my LX has a lot of “thump” as well. I also like the way the Multi-hole guitars swish the sound around inside just a little bit longer before they let it out! These are our tools and they each have a soul of their own. |
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Location: Vermont USA | MWoody,
Ilike what you said; (I also like the way the Multi-hole guitars swish the sound around inside just a little bit longer before they let it out!)I have been trying to figure out the tone when I am unpluged and thats it right on.
Thank You
Paul |
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Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | In another thread Cliff referred to the market being inundated with overseas-made shallow-bowl laminates. It is unfortunate that these are the ones most readily at hand in music stores, with the resultant damage to Ovation's rep.
I guess there's just not enough of a market base for high-end guitars for most manufacturers to survive producing only them. Even Martin is getting in on the act; a lot of what they produce now have backs and sides made of compressed wood fibers called HPL (high pressure laminate). Martin claims that's being done for wood conservation reasons, but I suspect it has more to do with trying to grab a share of that large market base for less expensive instruments. They claim that all their guitars, laminate or not, have "that famous Martin tone". Not true, at least according to my ears.
So someone who has heard about the famous Martin sound walks into a store, tries a Martin laminate, and thinks "man, that's not so great sounding". So Martin's rep gets damaged the same way the cheapo Ovations are giving Ovation a black eye. I guess it's a risk when a company develops a split personality and starts trying to cater to two different markets, particularly if the larger market is for the low-end line. |
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Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | I should clarify that Cliff was referring to shallow-bowls, and not necessarily overseas-made "panel" shallow-bowls. |
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Location: Upper Left USA | To increase Market share or not to increase Market Share? That is the question. Whether it nobler in the heart to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or to...
Well anyway, you get it!
Grab the good stuff and run! |
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Location: south east Michigan | Mike & Duncan are thinking clearly today. |
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Location: SoCal | I just got a flyer from the Guitar Center. The Ovations in it are all Celebs and the banner say "Built to be plugged in". Who the fuc* is going to want to buy a nice Ovation to play on the front porch if they're only built to be plugged in?
I apologize if I offended anybody. Except of course, to Cliff. He's wondering what I said that could be offensive. |
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Location: NJ | Guitar Center. |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by Duncan J:
Even Martin is getting in on the act; a lot of what they produce now have backs and sides made of compressed wood fibers called HPL (high pressure laminate)
To the rest of the world "HPL" is known as Formica |
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Location: Upper Left USA | "HPL is formica"
Is that the same as the Danelectro Combination Pro I had a while back?
Nice toy. |
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Location: Midland, MI | All of these anti-supershallow bowl threads are bringing me down, man. You guys are telling me that my Elite with the supershallow bowl is supposed to sound tinny, trebly, icepick-y with no bottom end or mid range?
Dude, you guys are sooooooooo harshing my mellow. I mean, like, all this time I thought my 1868 sounded great. I even compared it to some of those high-end wood boxes and graphite jobs when I bought it and it just sounded so much fuller.
What about the newbies that come here and search the archives and find out that super shallows are considered junk by the cognescenti? If I had know y'all felt that way, I'da never bought mine!
;) |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Ice Cream, dude.
Think Ice Cream. Lots of flavors. |
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Location: SoCal | fortunately, you listened to the guitar, not us :) |
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Location: Parkersburg, WV | For what it's worth, I have an 1881 Adamas II(shallow bowl/carbon graphite top) which sound wise defies logic. When I got it new in '97, I bought it strictly on its tone. Great sound especially compared to the shallow wood tops. It may prove that carbon graphite tops in the right situation can be an improvement and not just a substitute for wood.
Patsbro |
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Location: Fort worth Texas | I would just like to add that my 1867 Legend is a super shallow bowl with the AA Sitka Spruce top and It hold its own quite nicely when playing unplugged with Martins and other full bodied guitars,... I believe its because of the Sitka Spruce it resonates well and I love the tone.
That being said I do like the sound of seasoned strings as compared to new ones when unplugged though. |
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Location: Las Cruces, NM | I have to say it, even if I don't want to, even if it causes me to face the music.
When I started playing in the late 40's and early 50's, Martin, Gibson, Kay, Washburn, etc., probably sold a few hundred hand crafted guitars in a year. Wood was like weeds, it was available anywhere, a top of the line guitar was like a piece of furniture, cheap guitars were also solid wood.
Now Martin wants to supply thousands of guitars a month through GC or MF and the trees just won't grow fast enough, so a substitute has to be invented, not by research, but by hype. "Here kid is your genuine, imitation, Martin, almost like the good old days except we have replaced the wood with environmentally friendly (cheap) composites that don't damage the forests (they come from compressed sawdust from AAA spruce 2X4's) rosewood back and sides from your mother's rosebush, ground and compressed under tons of hot air. Recycled pallets provide the seasoned wood for necks and bracing, preventing Mexico from getting this valuable resource. The union stamp proves that it is all politically correct.
Relive history, buy a Martin or a Washburn, but don't blame us for the snide remarks of ancient doofuses who have real wood, but environmentally destructive guitars from the unenlightened era.
Bailey |
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Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | you still up bailey? i just got home. a wealthy guy kept us drinking pineapple and malibu all night. dasm they go down like water, and later this morning i know i am going to feel like chit waiting for the chain to be pulled.
anyway, from an ergonometric and plugged in standpoint i like my ss bodies. i don't own them for front porch picking, but i get your point. most guitar buyers arent educated in what to expect from what they have sitting on their knee. bottom line for someone buying a guitar is to buy it because it suits what you want to get from it. that can be a whole lot more than unplugged sound. most buyers tend to be a sheep and buy what will impress the rest of the sheep.
ovations aren't the only guitars i own, but they seem to be the ones i choose to play the most. but no one guitar suits every need. it would be a whole lot cheaper for me if that was the case. but ya know---- if you could make a good rugged guitar that played and sounded good and looked decent, and it was made from recycled ovation shipping boxes, i would gladly play it in the company of martins and taylors. most of those people had their minds made up (usually by the flock) what they were going to buy before they ever picked up their martin or taylor. i played lots of guitars before i even saw my first ovation which my friend let me play. it was an ovation balladeer 12 string from the late 60s or very early 70s since the year i played it was like 73 i think. it made me realize sound and playability and dependability were something that didn't have to be associated with wood or famous names. it was a revalation that changed how and what i chose to play.
i probably said this when i joined this board, but one of the things i like best about most ovation owners is that like the guitars they play they are mavericks that dont follow the sheep. they picked up a guitar they liked and it fit what they wanted to do with it and made their own decision what was right for them when they bought it. or if they are like me just a few more. |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | I have a shallow bowl Legend 12 string and it does sound more "tinny" than my mid-depth guitars when unplugged. I wouldn't bring a super shallow bowl to an "unplugged" jam, but as a gig guitar, it's awesome. I can get pretty much any tone I want with a little tweaking. The shallow bowl also makes the guitar very comfortable to play and keeps feedback in check.
As far as the "cheap" Ovations go, I would suspect that the mother ship is making money on these guitars as the volume is high and the cost to produce is low. Like many other industries, they are being forced to go overseas for cheaper products. My company is about to lose it's largest account to an outfit that buys raw materials from Tiawan. It sucks, but that's the way it goes. Hopefully I wiull still have a job next month. |
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Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada | The term "HPL" is what Martin uses to describe their guitar backs and sides made of compressed wood fibers.
It's interesting that they claim all Martins have the famous Martin sound, even with HPL sides and backs, yet they will price one with jacaranda (Brazilian rosewood) sides and back thousands of dollars more than one with East Indian rosewood or mahogany. Seems to me they are sending a mixed message: you can get our famous sound even with HPL, but, boy oh boy, that Brazilian rosewood sounds so much better than even other solid tone woods, it's worth paying thousands of dollars more.
As for Ovation shallow-bowls, I've never played one, but I would imagine one with a genuine spruce or cedar top must sound better than a laminate top. |
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Location: Fayetteville, NC | It's been said before, But I'll repeat it.
It's all Ice Cream...Lots of flavors.
Musical Tastes and preferences are different.
while I Personally have never been crazy about shallow bowls. There are obviously those who prefer it, be it for performance or comfort.
I just found that i prefer the Mid-depth bowls and really love deep bowls For their acoustic Sound projection. The ability to plug an Ovation in during live performances is simply Iceing on the cake for me.If Ovation stops marketing the shallow Bowl Ovations here in the US and you really prefer one . I'm sure they will be glad to do a bowl change as a custom order.
Of Course , Who knows? Ovation might just reverse their decision and keep them on the market anyway.
stranger things have happened. |
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Location: Louisville, OH 44641 | Personally, I'm not a fan of the shallow and super shallow bodies. I bought a super shallow Balladeer and quickly sold it. I normally play acoustically and this Balladeer had a nasty tinny sound. I really love my Adamas 12 string (mid depth) and my Elite (deep body).
I believe Ovation has done substantial damage to their reputation with both the shallow bowl guitars and the import models. I work in a consumer product company and interface with marketing executives daily. They would tell you it's CRITICAL |
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Location: Scotland | Originally posted by MWoody:
"HPL is formica"
Is that the same as the Danelectro Combination Pro I had a while back?
Danelectro used Masonite or "hardboard" as us Brits call it. |
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Location: Louisville, OH 44641 | Sorry, I hit the Enter button and posted before I was finished...
Our marketing people would tell Ovation it is CRITICAL that you differentiate your product lines in meaningful ways. For example, you might choose to have the Elite line only use the multi sound hole design with wood tops and a deep body. Legend migt have a center sound hole and a deep body. The Adamas might be the Ovation custom guitar that you build on-line and would be the only ones available with a carbon fibre top.
Perhaps the Celebrity line could consist of Ovation's shallow bodies with laminated tops. But in addition, there should also be a substantially different look. The Celebrity line should not even reference the Ovation name. In marketing terms, it's a sin to have the cheaper Celebrity guitars look nearly identical to the Adamas guitars. It confuses customers. I love the American made O's (especially with deep and mid bodies) and think they should be positioned in the market place as the premium line...not imitated by cheaper Ovation imports. |
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Location: SoCal | re: In marketing terms, it's a sin to have the cheaper Celebrity guitars look nearly identical to the Adamas guitars.
I agree...however, at the time in the 80's, it was difficult to sell any "acoustic" guitar - may not have been a bad idea back then to slide in under the Ovation name. They survived and sold a lot of guitars.
Now that they have market position and placement with the Celeb line, they have an opportunity to differentiate between imports and US made. |
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Location: Minden, Nebraska | I have a sneakin' hunch that shallow bowl cutaways with electronics did a lot to actually maintain and perhaps grow Ovation's market share. |
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Location: Lake Hiawatha, New Jersey | "re: In marketing terms, it's a sin to have the cheaper Celebrity guitars look nearly identical to the Adamas guitars."
I couldn't agree more. It's hard for most people to tell the difference between an "Applause" model and a U.S. made "Baladeer" just by looking. I think that Ovation should consider upgrading the "Applause" line to the level of the "Celebrity" and have all of the Guitars with the Ovation name be U.S made guitars. |
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Location: Monroe, Ohio (Cincinnati) | In my opinion, the only reason to confuse Celebrity by calling it Ovation is to sell more Celebrities. An attempt to capitalize on the Ovation Name. This may have been a calculated financial/marketing decision to sell more guitars at the expenxe of using up some of the market capital of the brand name.
When I bought my Applause in 1980, it was because it looked like and was made by the same company as an Ovation, but mostly because if fit my budget and I liked the guitar. It did not say and I did not confuse it with a real Ovation, even though it was manufactured in the U.S.
I have been shopping and trying a lot of Kaman roundback guitars over the last couple of months and the following has become apparent to me:
(Excluding Adamas models about which I am uninformed)
1. Best sound = deep bowl, solid wood top.
2. Lesser sound = Medium bowl, solid wood top.
3. Even lesser sound = Shallow bowl, solid wood top.
4. Still lesser sound = Laminate top.
5. Worst sound = Shallow bowl, Laminate top.
Some ignorant people may make a decision about Ovation based Celebrity or Applause guitars, but they are probably just as likely to make that judgement based on Indiana and other counterfit roundbacks.
WANT BEST ACOUSTIC SOUND = buy a deep bowl U.S. Ovation.
WANT GOOD ACOUSTIC SOUND AND MORE COMFORTABLE PLAYING POSITION = buy a mid bowl U.S. Ovation.
WANT TO PLUG IN MOST OF THE TIME, WITH JUST OK ACOUSTIC SOUND, AND WANT MOST COMFORTABLE PLAYING POSITION = shallow bowl U.S. Ovation.
WANT TO PLUG IN MOST OF THE TIME AND SOUND LIKE CRAP ACOUSTICALLY = shallow bowl import. (Laminate top)
Different woods, bracing, sound hole configuration, etc. will have some effect, but is more about personal likes than actual sound quality.
That is why I picked up an 1861 shallow bowl Balladeer to plug in for P&W. Fit the budget, won't cry if I get a ding hauling it around, should do the job nicely. I have other guitars to play acoustically.
It is ok to be uninformed, but to make decisions or form opinions upon something you are uninformed about is what I believe they call ignorant.
Play 'em all, listen to 'em all, get informed, choose the right tool for the job, ignore the ignorant people. (That's what ignorant people are for.) |
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Location: Fort worth Texas | I understand where you guys are coming from but I still have to say I am getting way better than just an OK sound out of my shallow bowl 1867 Legend,..... maybe mine is deffective |
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Location: Freeport, IL | Hey,
Just received my Glen Campbell Artist Balladeer 1127-4 from Tony Calman. I also have an Adamas SMT and very recently owned an Elite 1537. The 1127 with a shallow bowl compares very favorably to either of the aforementioned guitars. It has plenty of bass response and beautiful trebles - great sustain. This particular model has no pick-up of any kind. I don't know if this contributes to the amazing acoustic sound of this shallow body or not, but, the 1127 rocks hard.
Regards,
Jon Van Gilder
Freeport, IL |
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Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | Originally posted by Billy Blaze:
I understand where you guys are coming from but I still have to say I am getting way better than just an OK sound out of my shallow bowl 1867 Legend,..... maybe mine is deffective
i have to agree, and so do allot of my musicial friends when i play my ss 83 collectors series. i must admit it has the tightest grain top i have ever seen, but it is still one fine ss guitar plugged or unplugged. and the electronics are the stack knob type that i scavenged from a folklore (the powertools are dangerous to your guitar's health guitar i bought for the case and parts). the adamas ss 12 string bill sold me (prototype) is hands down the most crystalline sounding 12 i have ever played. it is exactly like what i think a 12 should sound like. never muddy, and always super clear individual tones from each string. never played a deep bodied one, but moody pi says i need to try his deep adamas 12. i'm sure i'll be impressed, but still, mine never lacks what it needs to cut through the mix, and make a distinctive statement.
i do agree 100% that ovations economy line (still a hell of a guitar for someone starting out) needs to look different than the expensive older brothers in the line. make them distinct and dont pump the econo line to be something it isn't. i remember a guy getting up to play on open mic night here with a black celebrity special (limited?) edition. from a distance i thought "wow, there is a guy with some bucks and good taste". it actually sounded pretty good too, but not like what it was made to copy. my elite standard is plain jane by comparison, but has a better tone. it is rare to see other ovations down here. i guess i was a little dissappointed it wasn't like one of those top of the line elites, but ya know, he loved it and it coaxed some good music out of him. maybe i was the only one there that was disapointed. |
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Location: Lawrenceville, Ga. | Hmmm...I guess my Elite T is also one of the flukes. Even with the coated top it was the unplugged sound that pulled me in first. It's gotten even better after a dozen or so gigs in varied weather conditions. Very balanced, plenty of bass, great projection out front. Maybe not quite as loud as my old D-15, but surely loud enough for 'unplugged' jams with other guitars. I mainly play plugged in though, even when at home, to stay consistent with that sound and tone. But I do love the unplugged sound as well. My own not-so-shallow front won't allow me to play deep bowls any more unless I want to end up playing lap slide (or would that be more like belly slide?). |
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Location: Scotland | The current Elite-T has a mid-bowl, I'm not aware of a super-shallow version. The tonal diference between mid & deepbowls is pretty subtle |
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Location: Minden, Nebraska | I had an 1868T with a shallow bowl. It surprised me with its tone -- quite good for the price, but it didn't have quite the depth of the mid-depth bowl model. |
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Location: Pennsylvania | I don't know that I have anything to contribute other than more folklore.
Had an old - mid 70's Ovation (stolen out of a car in a hotel parking lot at 5a.m. in DC in 87) which was what I'd call a "canonical" Ovation. My only complaint was that the sound went out from the guitar, and not much came up to me - as a singer, that was a real drag.
I played an Ibanez for the past 12 years - it had deep rich full tones, and at 12 years old, was a nice guitar. A year ago I put a Fishman pickup in it, and plugged in it was also rich.
This May, I picked up a CE 868 shallow bowl (maybe its a super shallow bowl?) and I agree that it is less impressive unplugged, to be sure. This may be as much because the quality plugged in is _so_ good, that the comparison leaves you tricked.
However, it's certainly rich and balanced, even unplugged. Its just not as loud and does not have quit as much low-end when its not plugged in.
However, this one I can hear when I play it (I'm guessing its because the face of the guitar is 2 or 3 inches closer to my body than it was on the old one). This feature I really like.
I'm not prepared to give it up, that's for sure.
Ray |
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| I guess I have not owned nor tried enough of the other Ovation models to have an "educated opinion" but I can say I used to own a deep bowl, classical ovation, that put most traditional classical guitars in their place. It had a rich full clear sound. And although it is an unfair comparison, My 6 string Elite with a shallow bowl can not compare with the Adamas I have now. I know there are some big differences between these two guitars but I fell it's the bowl size that makes the most noticable sound difference in these guitars.
From what I have heard played "at me" from the audience side of music I find the Ovations all seem to cut through the mix but it is the deep bowl models that have the fuller sound that I am impressed with.
These guitars are still so unique in their style, especially the multi-hole models, that I think the audience notices these when they are played and they are concentrating on what sound they have much more than they do with a standard acoustic guitar. If you see what I am trying to say?
On a solo piece it would be difficult for me to tell you what guitar is being used. If there are two guitars playing side by side and one is an Ovation I can hear the difference right away. In a band situation I think many acoustics are just kind of lost in the mix but when you use an Ovation and you see it and your watching the guy play it you here the sounds it has more clearly because your attention is more focused. That may explain why Ovations seem to have to answer to what they sound like more than traditional guitars do? I am amazed the outright dislike shown by other musicians for these guitars ( I think it's because they are an attention getter's)! and then on the other side the following they have with guy's & girls like us?
Ya Love em or Ya hate em
"Plugged In" these guitars can do so much. I am experimenting now with the Acoustic amp and a Mic at the same time and trying to blend the two sounds together through the board. If I can swing it one of those new Bose units would sound great as a seperate unit from the rest of the band for the acoustics only!
But that was another thread.
Randy |
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Location: Phoenix AZ | There are dozens and dozens of factors that effect how an acoustic guitar will sound. IF and I stress IF! all other factors could be made the same, then a deeper bowl should sound louder and more bottom end then a supershallow bowl. But that is not always the case. Every guitar has its character. Some Ovations are great and some suck. Same is true of other brands as well. Go listen to a plywood Martin with the Micky Mouse paint job! If anything, I would say the Ovation line is somewhat compressed, which is not necessarily a bad thing. What I mean is that the worst Ovation doesn't sound as bad the other crappy guitars on the market. And the best Ovation maybe doesn't sound as good as the best from Collings, Taylor, Larrivee, Martin, etc. But with Ovation at least you know what you are getting. With others, the sound can very a lot from one to the other of the SAME model. |
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Location: Ca | I think the shallow bowls serve a purpose: they are comfortable to play standing up and they are designed to sound good plugged in. They are made for a specific purpose. No, they are not going to sound as deep and rich as a good Martin, Taylor, or high-end Ovation. They are made so that we can justify having more than one guitar to our spouses.
Guy ;) |
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Location: Upper Left USA | Re: "They are made so that we can justify having more than one guitar to our spouses."
Congratulations Bassguy! Only your second post and you have nailed the issue!
Diversification of Product exists so that a few will have the right tool but many will have more toys, choices and opinions!
Here we meet often but we are not looking for a cure! |
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Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | Originally posted by Bassguy:
I think the shallow bowls serve a purpose: they are comfortable to play standing up and they are designed to sound good plugged in. They are made for a specific purpose. No, they are not going to sound as deep and rich as a good Martin, Taylor, or high-end Ovation. They are made so that we can justify having more than one guitar to our spouses.
Guy ;)
i have around 50 stringed instruments, and when i arrive with something new, z9every trip to the states) kathleen doesn't even roll her eyes anymore. we have a house which i am in right now that we both refer to as the guitar house. "they are a good investment and our grandson will have them all someday" is a good spouse convincer. |
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| "They are made so that we can justify having more than one guitar to our spouses."
Nope I ran it by the wife and shallow bowl or not it ain't gonna fly!
Dam though you had something there too!
Randy |
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Location: San Bernardino, California | Just a thought:
With the introduction of the Viper, wouldn't the shallow bowl be competing with it? |
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Location: Chicagoland | Perhaps the Celebrity line could consist of Ovation's shallow bodies with laminated tops. But in addition, there should also be a substantially different look. The Celebrity line should not even reference the Ovation name. In marketing terms, it's a sin to have the cheaper Celebrity guitars look nearly identical to the Adamas guitars. It confuses customers.
But think back to the poor and young ones like me. I fell in love with my mid-depth Celebrity becuase of it's unplugged sound. It made me fall in love with Ovation guitars in general, and I'm dreaming of the Adamas and the Elite, but I won't have enough money for one of those for many years yet.
How well would Ovation fared if the only thing a poor, young (and most people start out playing young) buyer could afford was a shallow bowl Ovation. It's not as if we have the money for an amp to see how beautiful they sound plugged in.
We fall in love with Ovation only if we can actually afford one. |
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Location: Minden, Nebraska | BruDev wrote: "With the introduction of the Viper, wouldn't the shallow bowl be competing with it?"
I don't think so. The applications may overlap, but they are obviously very different guitars. I am one who is blessed with good sounding shallowbowl Ovations, and I use my Legend or Elite on occasion in group settings. My Viper would never be suitable without an amp and I prefer the natural sound, anyway. I have used a Viper on occasion in my band, but then must rely completely on my monitor to hear myself. With my shallowbowls, I can still hear my guitar even in pretty high SPL environments. |
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Shallow body Issues: Subjectivity