So Sad
Wuzhizzoner
Posted 2004-12-23 11:05 AM (#168875)
Subject: So Sad


Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 1614

Location: Converse, Texas
A friend of mine just called me and told me that Crossroads Music in Delaware, Ohio, sold a new USA Flag Custom Legend -- for $650!!!!!!! :(
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samova
Posted 2004-12-23 11:38 AM (#168876 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 970

Location: Atlanta,Ga.
No suprise about that.They just sit and sit in music stores.The flag graphics are beautiful but it takes the right buyer to want one at $1900.00.Guitar center here in Atlanta has had two for over 2 years and no one has bought them.The only way to move them is at $650 or less.
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Slipkid
Posted 2004-12-23 11:39 AM (#168877 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 9301

Location: south east Michigan
It's all about being at the right place at the right time.
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MWoody
Posted 2004-12-23 12:31 PM (#168878 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13987

Location: Upper Left USA
For someone, the glass was half full. Better yet, it was 75% off!

There have been some repeat posters with the Flag guitars on eBay. Right person, right time, big wallet. I would think just getting the price to $1000 would be all it would take.
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Old Applause Owner
Posted 2004-12-23 12:57 PM (#168879 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922

Location: Canton (Detroit), MI
I imagine it's a matter of first, the price is high, and second, not THAT many people want to make that kind of statement with their guitars. I imagine that a lot of people will take it that the owner/player is a conservative and right-wing, whether that would be true or not. Some people don't want that attention.

Both points have to be satisfied to sell the guitar. But, yes, it is a pretty guitar.

Roger
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alpep
Posted 2004-12-23 1:48 PM (#168880 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10582

Location: NJ
you must be hurting to take that kind of a hit on the guitar.
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seesquare
Posted 2004-12-23 5:07 PM (#168881 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3612

Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
Speculatively, what would it have brought on Fleabay?
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alpep
Posted 2004-12-23 5:22 PM (#168882 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10582

Location: NJ
e bay is always a wild card. you just never know.
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seesquare
Posted 2004-12-23 5:52 PM (#168883 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3612

Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
Last listed item: no bids at $1800, then no bids at $1300. Guess you're right, Michael- $1K may be "critical threshold". Too bad, they're beautiful. Frankly, I don't give a s**t if someone does think I'm flagwaving.
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MWoody
Posted 2004-12-23 6:50 PM (#168884 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13987

Location: Upper Left USA
Sees,

So is it Aphrodite, Blue Thunder, Arrielle or what? (the name of your latest patient)
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seesquare
Posted 2004-12-23 9:24 PM (#168885 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3612

Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
Y'know, Mike, I haven't given it much attention, with the frenzy of the season. I'm waiting for the rosette to arrive, and designing the cradle to do the crack repairs in the top. It's being very patient so far. However, your suggestion of Blue Thunder is in the running. I think it will have to earn that moniker, though. That will not be possible 'til all the repairs are made, and it goes to Flight Test.
In the meantime, I keep staring at my critters, wondering if they need to be sent out into the world, to accomodate an '05 Collector's. Boy, I'm glad they can't read..........
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John Lawrence
Posted 2004-12-23 10:09 PM (#168886 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
March 2004
Posts: 201

Location: Vernon, CT
I bought my CL 1779-USA from Al P. brand new for a very good price and there is no way I'd sell it for that price. Pic is also posted. But I have no intention of selling it either. Over time I think you will find them going for more but again the market does not follow a logical pattern either. It sounds and looks great and I have been complimented on what a cool looking and great sounding guitar it is! No negative feedback.

John L.
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Paul Blanchard
Posted 2004-12-23 11:03 PM (#168887 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 1817

Location: Minden, Nebraska
I suspect Al is right. The need for cash flow must be pretty acute to eat the loss involved in that deal.
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John Lawrence
Posted 2004-12-24 2:39 PM (#168888 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
March 2004
Posts: 201

Location: Vernon, CT
Ovation's MSRP on the CL 1779-USA guitar is $3,300 last I knew. Doubt GC would be selling it for $650. It is a CL with all the sirens, bells and whistles plus an Ovation flagship guitar.

John L.
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xbj
Posted 2004-12-24 4:37 PM (#168889 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 194

Location: Las Vegas
They should be glad they don't have to pay people to take them. Once you sell to the small handful of country artists that should have enlisted long ago and been in Iraq in the front lines dying, who in their right mind would want one?

Just think, if people viewed the first Viet Nam the way they view this one, we'd STILL be losing to China in Southeast Asia.

Chew on that for awhile.

Merry Christmas. Deepest condolences go out to those that have lost loved ones in Bush's war, and to those yet to come.

All the flag guitars should be sent gratis to the troops, who've EARNED them.

Leslie Bell
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2004-12-24 5:21 PM (#168890 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664

Location: SoCal
Actually, I like that guitar and have thought about buying one.

I don't think you want to inject politics on the board. The opinions here are diverse, but the agreement seems to be, let's keep the politics out.

Unless you really want to have a serious discussion on it..... Why don't you chew on the fact that a million people were slaughtered by their own communist government after the U.S. pulled out. Oh, that's right. They weren't Americans so who gives a rats ass about them.

But I suspect that Al's already rolling his eyes at this thread.
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Old Applause Owner
Posted 2004-12-24 5:46 PM (#168891 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922

Location: Canton (Detroit), MI
Yes, please, let's talk guitars. There are plenty of other places to discuss politics if one prefers to.

Roger
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Mr. Ovation
Posted 2004-12-24 6:15 PM (#168892 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 7222

Location: The Great Pacific Northwest
Al and I were at NAMM the year these guitars came out and it seemed everyone had some version of a flag guitar. Ovation's was in production before 9-11 so that may have something to do with the quality, but most just looked like a flag painted on a guitar. The Ovation "flag" is simply amazing. Almost 3-D looking that photo's do not really do it any justice. I believe many to be decals, this one is definately not.
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xbj
Posted 2004-12-24 11:03 PM (#168893 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 194

Location: Las Vegas
Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
Unless you really want to have a serious discussion on it..... Why don't you chew on the fact that a million people were slaughtered by their own communist government after the U.S. pulled out. Oh, that's right. They weren't Americans so who gives a rats ass about them.


WE can only be responsible for the people OUR government kills, or the people killed by governments OUR government sets up and supports.

People killed by governments chosen by those people or not thrown off by those people are THEIR problem. Because when WE try to fix such problems, WE become not only THE problem, WE become THE problem that is much WORSE than the initial problem WE were trying to fix.

Not as convoluted as it sounds on first read, and a hard lesson from history that APPARENTLY HAS TO KEEP BEING LEARNED THE HARD WAY EVERY 40 YEARS. Because there's a TON of money in IGNORING IT.

PITY.

Leslie Bell
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Old Applause Owner
Posted 2004-12-25 7:40 AM (#168894 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922

Location: Canton (Detroit), MI
STOP, please. Talk guitars or go elsewhere.

Roger
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Beal
Posted 2004-12-25 7:47 AM (#168895 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
January 2002
Posts: 14127

Location: 6 String Ranch
Merry Christmas
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2004-12-25 10:08 AM (#168896 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664

Location: SoCal
Good Christian attitude Leslie. Look out for yourself and the hell with everybody else.

You probably won't like me saying this, but Merry Christmas!

Or should I not care about what happens to you because you're not in my circle of friends and family?
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alpep
Posted 2004-12-25 10:33 AM (#168897 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10582

Location: NJ
you made me think of Phil Ochs

Outside of a small circle of friends

Pre>c d c d
Look outside the window, there’s a woman being grabbed
C em f g
They’ve dragged her to the bushes and now she’s being stabbed
E am
Maybe we should call the cops and try to stop the pain
F am dm g
But monopoly is so much fun, I’d hate to blow the game
C am eb
And I’m sure it wouldn’t interest anybody
Cm f
Outside of a small circle of friends.

Riding down the highway, yes, my back is getting stiff
Thirteen cars are piled up, they’re hanging on a cliff.
Maybe we should pull them back with our towing chain
But we gotta move and we might get sued and it looks like it’s gonna rain
And I’m sure it wouldn’t interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends.

Sweating in the ghetto with the (colored/panthers) and the poor
The rats have joined the babies who are sleeping on the floor
Now wouldn’t it be a riot if they really blew their tops?
But they got too much already and besides we got the cops
And I’m sure it wouldn’t interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends.

Oh there’s a dirty paper using sex to make a sale
The supreme court was so upset, they sent him off to jail.
Maybe we should help the fiend and take away his fine. (*)
But we’re busy reading playboy and the sunday new york times
And I’m sure it wouldn’t interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends

Smoking marihuana is more fun than drinking beer,
But a friend of ours was captured and they gave him thirty years
Maybe we should raise our voices, ask somebody why
But demonstrations are a drag, besides we’re much too high
And I’m sure it wouldn’t interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends

Oh look outside the window, there’s a woman being grabbed
They’ve dragged her to the bushes and now she’s being stabbed
Maybe we should call the cops and try to stop the pain
But monopoly is so much fun, I’d hate to blow the game
And I’m sure it wouldn’t interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends

[ additional verse, 1974 ]
Down in santiago where they took away our mines
We cut off all their money so they robbed the storehouse blind
Now maybe we should ask some questions, maybe shed a tear
But I bet you a copper penny, it cannot happen here
And I’m sure it wouldn’t interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends
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mvest62
Posted 2004-12-25 10:33 AM (#168898 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 7

Hey, i thought this forum was all about Ovation guitars!?
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Slipkid
Posted 2004-12-25 11:20 AM (#168899 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 9301

Location: south east Michigan
At times we stray.
Not very far though.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2004-12-25 1:04 PM (#168900 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664

Location: SoCal
I did picture and hear somebody playing an Ovation while I read what Al posted. I think it was a Custom Legend.

I'm done ranting. Some of you guys have become very good friends, some I'm still getting to know, and some I probably will never know or understand. I wish you all a very very Merry Christmas. Peace and Goodwill towards men.
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Old Applause Owner
Posted 2004-12-25 1:14 PM (#168901 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922

Location: Canton (Detroit), MI
But farther than we should, sometimes.....

It seems a good idea to resist discussion of politics and religion on this forum. There are many viewpoints, and we are not going to agree. It is better to "agree to disagree" without vitriolic language and go on. We all supposedly are here because we are interested in Ovation guitars. There are wonderful, highly knowledgable people here on that subject, we should all concentrate on that.

Of course there are bad things going on in the world everywhere. But we can't solve them on this forum, we have to do that as best we can in our daily lives; we vote for our choice for leader, we go (or not go) to the worship house of our choice, we give money to what we believe are worthy causes.

And somewhere in all of this, we play and talk about our Ovation guitars.

Roger
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MWoody
Posted 2004-12-25 1:21 PM (#168902 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13987

Location: Upper Left USA
Heard it said that if you're not a Liberal by the time you are 18 you have no heart, if you are not a Conservative by 35 you have no mind. Let me add that if you haven't made a decision where you stand and what you will do, at least in some small way along the way, you will have no hope.

Live, Love and Seek your Purpose.
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Standingovation
Posted 2004-12-25 1:22 PM (#168903 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6197

Location: Phoenix AZ
If you don't like the flag-legend, then don't buy one. Simple as that. It's not our governments fault that guitar companies make guitars with flags painted on them.

I liken the flag-legend to GM coming out with a corvette painted completly like an american flag. A few folks will buy them. But most people would not be interested. Doesn't make them anti-american at all. They just don't care for the looks.

If ovation was smart, they would extend the technique of the flag painting to other options. I think they would sell of ton of guitars painted like 1) Erhnhardts #3 nascar, 2) NY Yankee pinstripes, 3) Maryln Monroe, 4) Elvis, 5) World Trade Center, 6) Mickey Mouse and 7) Dogs Playing Poker.
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MWoody
Posted 2004-12-25 1:31 PM (#168904 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13987

Location: Upper Left USA
Dave,

I don't know which hurts more. The fact you could even mention those options or the belief that you are probably right!!! :eek:
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Old Applause Owner
Posted 2004-12-25 1:36 PM (#168905 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922

Location: Canton (Detroit), MI
The money to license all those options, especially the Earnhardt #3, boggles the mind!!!! :eek:

That is why I don't think we'll see them....

Roger
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2004-12-25 1:36 PM (#168906 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664

Location: SoCal
I'm thinking one of the modern Adamii with the smooth top and the Dogs Playing Poker painted on it! It would become my new church guitar.
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willard
Posted 2004-12-25 2:43 PM (#168907 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 1300

Location: Madison, Wisconsin
My wife wants to know why I'm turning purple with smoke coming from my ears and emitting little "steam like" noises.
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stonebobbo
Posted 2004-12-25 3:02 PM (#168908 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
August 2002
Posts: 8307

Location: Tennessee
Hang in there Bill. It's nice to see you back ... don't let the distractions distract you.

The guitar Ovation should do right now is a 1651 Legend Limited Edition John Lennon. Yoko is careful with what she does, but there is an Epiphone J160 and two Casino versions, along with a Rickenbacker. The 1651 is prominently featured on the most recent CD, and you'd think there would be a soft spot in her heart since much of Double Fantasy was either written on or recorded with the Legend.

I understand she does most of these things to perpetuate the legend, not for money.

I'd buy one. "Just Because".
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xbj
Posted 2004-12-25 5:51 PM (#168909 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 194

Location: Las Vegas
Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
Good Christian attitude Leslie. Look out for yourself and the hell with everybody else.


Short and sweet, and then I'm done. Promise. After all, it is Christmas.

Jesus didn't save the world by fighting, and He certainly didn't save the world by bombing women and babies "to free them."

He really didn't. He saved the world by loving His enemies.

You too have a Merry Christmas!

Leslie Bell
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Wuzhizzoner
Posted 2004-12-25 5:54 PM (#168910 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 1614

Location: Converse, Texas
So Leslie, did God not send His people out to conquer the land and kill ALL of the enemies, and when they did to take the spoils? What happened EVERY time they didn't follow God's direction?

There will never really be peace in the world.
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mvest62
Posted 2004-12-25 6:06 PM (#168911 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 7

Touche!
Wow, this club is lots of fun!
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xbj
Posted 2004-12-25 6:13 PM (#168912 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 194

Location: Las Vegas
Originally posted by Hizzoner:
So Leslie, did God not send His people out to conquer the land and kill ALL of the enemies, and when they did to take the spoils? What happened EVERY time they didn't follow God's direction?

There will never really be peace in the world.


Jesus changed all that. Pure and simple, the perfect example.

If everyone loved their enemies, there would be peace in the world. But there's too much money to be made in promoting and doing the opposite, so I have to agree with your last statement. At least until it's remade.

Leslie Bell
:)
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mvest62
Posted 2004-12-25 6:32 PM (#168913 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
December 2004
Posts: 7

Amen!
Can we talk about guitars now?
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innerman
Posted 2004-12-25 6:37 PM (#168914 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
July 2002
Posts: 327

Location: Houston, TX
I have something to say about this whole business.

But, in the interest of all things more interesting and productive, let's assume that I just made some more statements after that last statement.

That'a all I have to say about this subject. I apologize for the offensive nature of this post, and for the language. It should have been written in Portuguese.
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Standingovation
Posted 2004-12-25 6:45 PM (#168915 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6197

Location: Phoenix AZ
Through out history war has always been an integral part of human nature. If not for war, we'd have no appreciation for peace. I don't condone war per se, but nor do I oppose it. It's just a part of life that always has been and always will be, to varying extents. My xmas wish is a big thank you to those who put their lives on the line so the rest of us can be free. There is no more honorable profession in my book.
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stonebobbo
Posted 2004-12-25 7:28 PM (#168916 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
August 2002
Posts: 8307

Location: Tennessee
So this is Christmas
And what have you done
Another year over
And a new one just begun
And so this is Christmas
I hope you have fun
The near and the dear ones
The old and the young

A very Merry Christmas
And a Happy New Year
Let's hope it's a good one
Without any fear

And so this is Christmas
War is Over
For weak and for strong
If you want it
The rich and the poor ones
War is Over
The world is so wrong
NOW
And so Happy Christmas
War is Over
For black and for white
If you want it
For yellow and red ones
War is Over
Let's stop all the fight
NOW

A very Merry Christmas
And a Happy New Year
Let's hope it's a good one
Without any fear

And so this is Christmas
War is Over
And what have we done
If you want it
Another year over
War is Over
And a new one just begun
NOW
And so Happy Christmas
War is Over
We hope you have fun
If you want it
The near and the dear ones
War is Over
The old and the young
NOW

A very Merry Christmas
And a Happy New Year
Let's hope it's a good one
Without any fear

War is Over
If you want it
War is Over
NOW


Happy Christmas
Happy Christmas
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2004-12-26 1:07 PM (#168917 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664

Location: SoCal
This is my last post on this subject for the rest of the year. I came across the attached colume by Jeff Jacoby. Bush is in the good company of FDR, Truman, and JFK, when he pushes the cause of freedom in other countries instead of just burying his head in the sand.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/12/26/in_the_footsteps_of_fdr_truman_jfk/

That's it. I'm done with this one.
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Standingovation
Posted 2004-12-26 2:32 PM (#168918 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
June 2002
Posts: 6197

Location: Phoenix AZ
Well said. Especially for a resident of a blue state. Dave
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xbj
Posted 2004-12-26 5:48 PM (#168919 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 194

Location: Las Vegas
Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
This is my last post on this subject for the rest of the year. I came across the attached colume by Jeff Jacoby. Bush is in the good company of FDR, Truman, and JFK, when he pushes the cause of freedom in other countries instead of just burying his head in the sand.


That's all well and fine. But don't EVER call THAT a Christian. THAT is antiChrist.

http://lvdi.viawest.net/~xbj/

Now I'm really done.

Leslie Bell
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cruster
Posted 2004-12-26 6:09 PM (#168920 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
May 2004
Posts: 2850

Location: Midland, MI
On the one hand, there are much better arguments that could be made...on both sides. On the other hand, I'm glad that everyone is done. On the third hand, I'm sad that it had to go this way here.
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Tony Calman
Posted 2004-12-26 6:51 PM (#168921 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
August 2003
Posts: 4619

Location: SoCal
I respect and honor my ancestors that fought to protect our rights and beliefs...from Callimachus (Gov. of Athens at the Battle of Marathon), Roderigo Diaz de Vivar (El Cid), Leo V Byzantium, Basil I the Macedonian of Byzantium, Olga (saint of Russian Orthodox, wife of Igor), Charlemagne, Louis Judice, Helen of the Cross Colchester, etc.

I have eight of the signors of the Declaration of Independence from Jefferson (1st cousin), Thomas Stone (gr-grandfather, one of Four Immortals of Maryland), Richard & Francis Lightfoot Lee, etc.

These are a few of my ancestors that, although they had imperfections, dedicated their service (and sometimes their life) to protect others, sometimes by the sword.

I support my cousin and his administration in his endevors - from pushing the UN and Europe in the Sudan to Iraq. For years, I carried my Marine Corps "782" gear and uniforms in my car's trunk going to and from work. And, I have a very strong faith. Yet, I was prepared to use the sword. There is no confict in that belief.
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Bradley
Posted 2004-12-26 9:58 PM (#168922 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 613

Location: Zion, Illinois
Well I am a direct descendant of John Hart, New Jersey's signer of the Declaration of Independence and I have no doubt in my heart what he would say about all of this....

Merry Chrismas and Play Ovation ;)
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2004-12-26 11:09 PM (#168923 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664

Location: SoCal
I read Leslie's website. That is just about the strangest damn thing I've ever seen. I'm sorry, but I will never subscribe to his version of the Bible. He's taking the Bible and mixing it with the belief of Ghandi, and tossing in a little Vulcan philosphy from Star Trek. Very strange.

While I do believe that the lion and lamb can lie down together, you'd better be prepared to toss in fresh lambs now and again.
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xbj
Posted 2004-12-27 7:20 AM (#168924 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
June 2003
Posts: 194

Location: Las Vegas
Originally posted by moody, p.i.:
I read Leslie's website. That is just about the strangest damn thing I've ever seen. I'm sorry, but I will never subscribe to his version of the Bible. He's taking the Bible and mixing it with the belief of Ghandi, and tossing in a little Vulcan philosphy from Star Trek. Very strange.

While I do believe that the lion and lamb can lie down together, you'd better be prepared to toss in fresh lambs now and again.


Vulcan phlosophy? Thanks, that's the heartiest laugh I've had all year, and the weirdest parallel anyone's ever made.

Look, Christians either follow the example Jesus Christ set Himself by His life and death or they aren't Christians. An example that was the personification of what HE said was the greatest commandment of all, "to love your enemies." PERIOD. Not to fight "for" them; not to bomb them to "free them"; not to "free them" to partake of their oil, not to "free them", period. Because to Christ what mattered was spiritual bondage, not earthly bondage. "Slaves obey your masters" and all that.

It really is THAT simple. And it has nothing to do with Ghandi, or Mr. Spock, except possibly that both of whom are closer to Christ than George Bush & Co. WILL EVER GET.

Look, my Dad fought in WWII. He also knew the truth and didn't consider himself a Christian because of it. My father GOT it.

You either follow Jesus to the cross or you don't, but don't you dare kill in His name, or worse yet, send others to their deaths killing FOR YOU in His name.

I CANNOT believe my very straitlaced LUTHERAN church was THAT weird in what they taught... I dunno, maybe they do take Martin Luther more seriously than other denominations. Or maybe I heard more sermons being in the worship band. And they thought I was sleeping!

Leslie Bell
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Slipkid
Posted 2004-12-27 8:07 AM (#168925 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 9301

Location: south east Michigan
Leslie,
Hey man.....chill...take a breath. If you are this juiced 24/7 it can't be healthy. Try playing something cathartic on your Ovation. Break a string if you must.
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Paul Blanchard
Posted 2004-12-27 10:51 AM (#168926 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 1817

Location: Minden, Nebraska
With respect to Leslie's thoughtfulness, there does seem to be more than a tone of rant to his posts on this thread and on his website. I could spend a lot of time addressing his points, but this isn't the place and it wouldn't be likely to make a difference. Bad church history, bad theology, and bad eschatology make a bad mix. We love you, Les, and respect your right to your opinion. Let's agree to disagree without becoming more disagreeable and leave it at that.

Coram deo, coram mundi.
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innerman
Posted 2004-12-27 11:21 AM (#168927 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
July 2002
Posts: 327

Location: Houston, TX
Well said, Paul.

One thing about our culture (or maybe just about us as human beings) is that we tend to see those who disagree with us as a threat. I see this all the time - daily - in business, in families, in the parking lot of a grocery store when I politely ask some dumbass to return the cart to its proper place so it doesn't ding anybody's car and then she yelled at me and started doing that funky side-to-side turkey head-bob thing and swearing and wouldn't shut up---wait, sorry...got carried away there. Anyway, my point is that debate is a natural and healthy process, but in our selfishness we've given it an offensive connotation.

Thesis vs. antithesis = synthesis. Happens every damn day. It's a good thing. It's just part of the evolutionary process. Scientific empirical method. What seems to be rare is for someone to, when faced with a dissenting opinion, stop and think and consider the other person's thought process and substance of the idea. Most people just try to shout down the other person in an effort to preserve their own position. And one thing I try to do these days is remember that no matter how strong my position is on a particular issue, I try to allow for the possibility that I am dead wrong. For example I wonder if, when the rapture or the tribulation or the Renaissance Festival or whatever it is that is supposed to happen in January DOESN'T HAPPEN, will Leslie come on the board and say "You know what, I was dead f****** wrong about all that. There were no trumpet players in togas, no ghosts doing magic tricks, no nukes, and everybody from my church is still here on the ground eating pizza. Well guys, I have to consider now that I may be wrong about other things as well." Probably too much to ask.

Of course, I could be wrong...
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2004-12-27 11:42 AM (#168928 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664

Location: SoCal
Not to worry. Leslie's got a good sense of humor even if we don't agree. He did laugh at my Vulcan reference.

He and I view the Bible differently. He looks at evil and believes it right to turn the other cheek. I look at evil and believe that it needs to be stopped. I look at history and can only imagine the horrow if the world hadn't stood up to Germany and Japan in WWII. I don't have to wonder about the million people who were killed after we left Viet Nam. I look at evil like Joseph Stalin who killed millions of his own people. And I look at people like FDR, Truman, JFK, Reagan, and the current president who all cared enough about the innocents in other countries, who were being slaughtered, to try to do something to stop it.

Leslie is a pacifist. If he is true to his beliefs, I will respect him for it. But I also have respect for those who are willing to stand up to evil and say "No more".

There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with me or with Leslie. Let's just keep the debate civil. After all, there's gonna be a lot of Ovation stuff to talk about in '05.

Ok, this time I really mean it. No more.

PM
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cruster
Posted 2004-12-27 11:48 AM (#168929 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
May 2004
Posts: 2850

Location: Midland, MI
Does the Hegelian dialectic have any place on this forum? I mean, outside of comparing Ovations to Martaylors, that is.

:D
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alpep
Posted 2004-12-27 12:04 PM (#168930 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10582

Location: NJ
please don't make me lock this thread
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2004-12-27 12:12 PM (#168931 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664

Location: SoCal
Al, this thread is a first on this board. Nobody's getting bent out of shape and nobody's getting nasty. It's f%&**#ing amazing!
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alpep
Posted 2004-12-27 12:41 PM (#168932 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10582

Location: NJ
what puzzles me moody is how a Great family guy like yourself can find the time on Christmas morning to get involved in a political thread instead of opening up presents with your wife and kids, drinking some hot chocolate and eating a ham sandwich. Or did you just go fishing this year????????


btw I made a killer batch of home made horseradish this year!!!
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Alaskan Fly Guy
Posted 2004-12-27 12:42 PM (#168933 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
July 2004
Posts: 474

Location: Anchorage, Alaska
I]Once you sell to the small handful of country artists that should have enlisted long ago and been in Iraq in the front lines dying, who in their right mind would want one?

What the...? Yea Merry Christmas back at Ya?
I hope I just took that the wrong way.
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moody, p.i.
Posted 2004-12-27 12:42 PM (#168934 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 15664

Location: SoCal
Heck Al. If you had kids, you'd know that the present openning is done by 7:30 am (and that's forcing the kids to wait to start until 7).
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alpep
Posted 2004-12-27 1:26 PM (#168935 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10582

Location: NJ
Moody
you should have went fishing with me. plenty of clorox and freshly made anchors.


btw bring back the prisons and workhouses!!!
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Paul Blanchard
Posted 2004-12-27 1:31 PM (#168936 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 1817

Location: Minden, Nebraska
Al - I think you should make some of that horseradish available through The OFC Store. I'll take a jar!

We had roast beef for Christmas dinner. My wife bought that lame Kraft horseradish sauce. I appreciate your thoughtfulness (since I am the only one here who likes the stuff) but I hated to waste good beef on bad horseradish.
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xnoel
Posted 2004-12-27 1:37 PM (#168937 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
September 2003
Posts: 782

Location: Waurika OK
Paul,
Your not the only one here who likes it, I keep some in the fridge to put on sandwiches with mayo and mustard.

I thing Al should make samples available. (He probably would if we went to NJ to get it)

noel
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cliff
Posted 2004-12-27 1:40 PM (#168938 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 14842

Location: NJ
Horseradish. hmmmmmmmmmmmm . . . THAT strike's a chord (somewhere in my sinus cavity). ;)

To me, the only good (bottled) is Gold's.


I also have a penchant for wasabi . . .


Al . . . got a recipe??
(I never made my own . . )
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Paul Blanchard
Posted 2004-12-27 1:43 PM (#168939 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 1817

Location: Minden, Nebraska
Noel,

It'd be worth the trip if a bit closer. I can drive to Waurika in a few hours. A trip to Al would involve overnight stops. I'll just have to settle for the stuff my wife bought. Kinda like playing a Taylor... ;)
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alpep
Posted 2004-12-27 2:04 PM (#168940 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10582

Location: NJ
cliff
when my dad died I took over the horseradish duties, there is not a recipe per say just ingredients and you make it to taste.

Part of the holiday thing is I share it with those who like it. both brother in laws got some and I have a quart jar for the new year's crew.

It works great with Kielbasa and ham. I have a great source for killer kielbasa also.
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Old Applause Owner
Posted 2004-12-27 2:40 PM (#168941 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
July 2003
Posts: 1922

Location: Canton (Detroit), MI
Where else but the OFC can we start with a U.S.-flag-top Custom Legend, go through a religion/ethics debate and end up talking about horseradish????? :D

Roger
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willard
Posted 2004-12-27 2:47 PM (#168942 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 1300

Location: Madison, Wisconsin
I might get kicked out of WI for saying this but, I prefer kielbasa over brats. After living in the Northwest for so long, I also prefer Tillmook cheese over anything I've had here in Wisconsin. And while we're on taste, I had the misfortune of being talked into trying Limburger cheese this weekend. It is without a doubt, the worse thing I've ever had in my mouth. That includes all the things that never should hve been in my mouth.
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Mr. Adamas
Posted 2004-12-27 2:54 PM (#168943 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
October 2004
Posts: 124

don't feel sad!!! condition, condition, condition. your friend didn't say whether it is damaged? if it's sold for $650, i think it must have some serious scars or blemishes.
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seesquare
Posted 2004-12-27 2:57 PM (#168944 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3612

Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
I'm sure this progression of stray voltage will find its way back to Ovations eventually......but in the meantime, The Spopusal Unit bought some "Beaver" brand horseradish sauce for our prime rib. I could smell my neighbor's perfume, 4-doors-down-the-street! Man, that stuff was good!! Apparently, the stuff is made by an old company in Beaverton, Oregon. Probably could order it over the internet.
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seesquare
Posted 2004-12-27 3:03 PM (#168945 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3612

Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
In case you're interested:
http://www.salsasetc.com/catalog/M-834a.html

I'll be posting on my '82 Collector's project soon. Stay tuned.
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seesquare
Posted 2004-12-27 3:05 PM (#168946 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3612

Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
In case you're interested:
http://www.salsasetc.com/catalog/M-834a.html

I'll be posting on my '82 Collector's project soon. Stay tuned.
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seesquare
Posted 2004-12-27 3:09 PM (#168947 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3612

Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
Hmmm......technical, and spelling problems- supposed to read "Spousal Unit", and the link was slow, I guess. sorry.
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alpep
Posted 2004-12-27 3:19 PM (#168948 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
December 2001
Posts: 10582

Location: NJ
Propylene Glycol, Artificial Flavor, Sorbitol, Egg Yolk, Sodiem Metabisulfite, citric acid, high fructose corn syrup, sofium benzoate, spices, xanthan gum, calcium disodium EDTA

I don't use any of this crap in my horseradish
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Paul Blanchard
Posted 2004-12-27 3:47 PM (#168949 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
February 2002
Posts: 1817

Location: Minden, Nebraska
Al -- I would be concerned if I thought you even knew where to get some of those additives.....

Willard -- since you are from Wisconsin, condolences on the news of the death of Reggie White. He helped make it safe to admit once again in public that you were from the Green Bay state.

All -- I just thought I would add one more extraneous twist to this thread.

:rolleyes:
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Nils
Posted 2004-12-27 9:50 PM (#168950 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 1380

Location: Central Oregon
Originally posted by seesquare:
Hmmm......technical, and spelling problems- supposed to read "Spousal Unit", and the link was slow, I guess. sorry.


I was wondering what a Spopusal Unit was. It sounds like something that might require a strong antibiotic.

So what is your 'secret horseradish ingredient' Al, morphine or oxycontin? Hahahaha!
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MWoody
Posted 2004-12-27 10:11 PM (#168951 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad



Joined:
December 2003
Posts: 13987

Location: Upper Left USA
"Spopusal"

Sounds like a Freudian slip combining spouse, usual and refusal"
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Nils
Posted 2004-12-27 10:24 PM (#168952 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
March 2002
Posts: 1380

Location: Central Oregon
You might be right Mike. It sure *sounds* like an bony fide word.
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seesquare
Posted 2004-12-27 11:49 PM (#168953 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
November 2002
Posts: 3612

Location: Pacific Northwest Inland Empire
Uncle Sigmund would likely liken it to liking.
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Abendicum
Posted 2004-12-28 1:55 AM (#168954 - in reply to #168875)
Subject: Re: So Sad


Joined:
June 2004
Posts: 271

Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Florida
Paul (moody,p.i.)

I've been busy with the Holidays and just read this thread... NOW I know why, you took so long to respond to my email...

Kinda of glad I am coming in at this lull, as I as all people would love to debate this, POLITICAL ISSUE, but as has been said before... (Here comes my 2cents :)

We share a love for musical instruments which is a beautiful experiance... making, playing, or even listening to good music is a soul lifting, pleasure, approaching a spiritual "high" found in little else on this wonderful planet we are entrusted with... To polute, this board as well as this planet with "war and rumors of war and such... in this venue, on this board, is "OK", becuase we have the right, but IMHO totaly inapropriate...

I probably will regret having even said THAT... The next time Politics or Religion creeps into a thread, why don't we just direct those that wish to further those issues to other venues were you can rant and discuss those, subjects with others of like mind...

The OFC board is for the love of Musical Instuments, let's try and keep it "plugged in" to that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AB
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