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Location: Northern Indiana | I recently sold my ovation preacher to a fellow that already put on the thicker strings, and the action started out slightly raised, and now it's raised even more, and he wants to put on even heavier strings too. I started out with 9's and I think he put on 11's and once to put on maybe 13's or perhaps higher.
Q1
So how do you lower the action on that guitar? Note, it has a bolt on neck.
Also, the neck is slightly bowed and it seems to me it could use some adjustment on the truss rod to let it straighten out some, if there is one on a bolt on.
Q2 & Q3
Is it easy to relieve the bow in this bolt on neck? How do you know which way to turn the truss rod in order to decrease the bow?
I've heard that necks can be sensitive issues, if you over stress a neck, it can become permanently damaged, so I am trying to find credible info, although suggestions and not 100% sure responses are welcome too.
Thanks,
1Way |
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Location: Scotland | The action is adjusted at the nut & bridge, the problem you have here is too much neck relief. The neck has bowed under the increased tension of the heavier strings. This is perfectly normal & can be fixed by adjusting the neck rod. There's a lot of useful information in the archives on adjusting neck rods. Try a search from the link at the top of this page using the phrase "neck relief" |
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Location: The Great Pacific Northwest | Ditto what he said, just be careful as the guitar is + or - 25 years old. |
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Location: puerto vallarta, mexico | a tiny drop of penetrating oil on a truss rod nut, as a lubricant and to help prevent a galvanic contact between the brass nut and the steel rod is something i do to every guitar i have. i lived on a couple of sailboats and still live on the coast where corrosion is part of life. most stainless steels even have problems in a marine application. if i were the king of guitlandia, i would require every truss rod's business end threads to be wrapped in teflon tape or coated with anti seize (a thread sealant containing super fine sacrificial metal powder like zinc or aluminum). a penny's worth of insurance.
if you have an allen socket truss rod end, the threads are usually at the other end. i have seen a few rarley successful last try attempts to free frozen threads that are not accessable without surgery. this is not the case for your situation with the preacher.
just curious why 13's on a guitar with hot pickups? |
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Location: Northern Indiana | Thanks guys, much appreciated. I will check out the stuff on "neck relief".
So once the neck is straightened out, then the action should be easier to lower without the buzzing from fretting out. That makes sense, a fair portion of the bow was up towards the headstock area. If you don't take out that bow and you try to lower the action, of course the body end of the neck will want to fret out (buzz). I hope the neck is not overly stressed. I liked it fine on 9's.
With a truss rod and truss rod nut and not knowing if the truss rod pushes or pulls, how does one find out which way to adjust the neck to straighten out the neck? Oh ya, read the neck relief stuff. (chuckles)
The buyer is a neat young man, it's been a real pleasure briefly getting to know him and his dad for the purchase. His dad is also a Christian and actually likes it that his son (who is only a Junior in high school!) can be occasionally heard playing guitar in his house, and that he plays bass on the church worship team. His dad personally picked up the guitar from me near Chicago and also said that he may have a demo CD coming out sometime soon.
Anyway, as to the thick strings. He has played piano for like 9 years or so (strong fingers), and has a lot of experience with acoustic guitar (strong fingers), so he has a naturally strong playing hand. At first he mentioned about acoustic guitars and that with them, the sound is better with thicker strings, which seems logical. He also said that it's the same with electrics but that most people use thinner strings because they are easier to bend. (not quite what I heard) The necks are very different and so is the acoustic requirements for the tone. Then he also said that some famous electric guitar players also use 13's or so, like Stevie R. V. in particular.
I told him that one issue is that the larger scale may make somewhat of a difference as I believe most strats are 25 1/2" instead of 24 3/4" and thus may be better suited to a somewhat thicker string. Certainly a baritone guitar, the Gibson baritone comes in a 28" scale complete with 13-60's (wow). I also said those who put on extra heavy strings probably have to make sure the neck has sufficient support too handle the increased pressure. My experience is that most players play with 9's or 10's, beginners might start with 8's. Some might use 11's but that seems extreme to me. I think his friends might like the heavier strings too. |
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Location: 6 String Ranch | 11s or 12s should be enough. One thing he needs to think about is that electrics usually are played a little differently than acoustics so learning a lighter touch for the electric vs acoustic would be a good thing to learn.
Russ, good point about the drop of earl |
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Location: Chicagoland | "Ditto what he said, just be careful as the guitar is + or - 25 years old."
Yes, I will most likley take it to a professional to get adjusted. I don't want to risk damaging this guitar.
I dont know if I'd go so high as 12s. I was thinking of picking up a pair of DR Jazz strings (http://www.drstrings.com/titefit.htm) which are one higher up from what I use. I've learned to have a light touch when playing other peoples electrics, but I personaly love the feel and sound of heavier strings. I may find them a bit heavy but mostly im just curious.
1way, once again I'm sorry I haven't been around. Schools getting pretty rough with winter break. I would like to mention that I also play guitar and piano in my worship team, as a matter of fact. :D :cool: |
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Location: SoCal | Put 10's on it. Best of all worlds. If you're an acoustic player, you'll be able to bend them like an electric player bends super slinkies, but they are heavy enough to give the guitar good tone. |
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Location: Tennessee | I really like the DR Pure Blues in 10's. Check 'em out. A bit more expensive but the pure nickel wounds really make it worth it. For whatever reason, these feel a lot chunkier than most electric strings. |
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Location: Midland, MI | Second (or third?) the pure nickle 10s on 'lectric. Since I keep moving up one gauge at a time on the acoustic, I find that even the 10s are starting to feel like noodles on the electrics. Playing the 9s on the display units at Guitarget is always entertaining...then again, that may just be my patented DeathGripFretMethod(tm). |
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Location: Northern Indiana | E Sherman, I am glad you seem to have a mature and patient response to this less than desirable situation. Thanks for the grace. I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but I never had any problems with the guitar, so I was really surprised and concerned that you had problems right off the bat...
Actually, I'm not 100% sure that I played it before or after the last time when I replaced the pickup spring. I thought I played it after, but I'm not completely certain. However I was just as careful as always with such things, barely lifting the pickguard about 1/2" to 3/4" max in order to have just enough room to reinsert the pickup assembly adjustment spring. I had done the same basic maneuver a day before because the first time I didn't have a long enough skinny pair of pliers to finish the job, and I am absolutely certain that I jammed after replacing the pickguard that time and it was still all good then. Ok, ok, (chuckles) I'm not sweating it, the guitar is in good hands. I just hope it wont cost you much to get it all worked out. It shouldn't be a serious problems as it was working great all this time. I really liked that guitar. I almost kept it over the Gibson Explorer 425 because the Explorer is even heavier, but the Explorer is "definitely" going to be sold or traded.
So you play drums, and electric guitar, and bass, and piano, and acoustic guitar, and your father is happy that you do all that. Wow, your family is way outstanding. Sounds great. Keep us posted on your progress. |
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Location: Northern Indiana | E Sherman, here is my update on me search for an SG. The Toledo show was basically a dud. The highlight was a pair of white "vintage" SG's with the old style vibrato, very nice. All original including the hardshell cases. Anyway, they wanted like 30 (or was it 60) ,,, THOUSAND DOLLARS!!! Brain function sort of went numb upon sticker shock. (chuckles) They looked great, but give me a break. I am really starting to dislike the vintage guitar scene. I don't want a guitar for an investment portfolio or for bragging rights or something to sit in a display cabinet. I want a great sounding guitar ,,, something to actually play! I only had several inquiries into my guitar. I gather that the "vintage crowd" tends to go for the original Gibson setup with the two duel humbuckers and a stop piece, but mine has three pickups, two are single coils, and it has a whammy bar. But these single coils are impressive and not at all noisy. I still have the original case and it's all in really great condition and I'm willing to take around half of new price.
Yesterday I went to the Guitar Center in Kalamazoo MI. They have a really nice store and a good sales team. Before I left I mentioned that I want to sell or trade off my guitar and one salesman who really knows guitars well seemed interested in taking my Gibson in for trade so that I can finally get my "keeper" guitar. It's the Epiphone Elitist SG Standard 61' reissue in cherry red finish complete with a styling "fits-like-a-glove" hard shell case. Epiphone's higher grade instruments are truly something to behold and from my experience, they rival the normal and base line Gibson models.
I've seen Gibson Standards (which are wonderful guitars but cost hundreds more) with frankly sloppy looking fretboard craftsmanship. No kidding, the inlays on one Gibson Standard looked surprisingly shabby with too much visible glue or putty or wood filler (?) residue at the boarders. However, overall the Gibson SG Standard has an air of quality that Gibsons are known for. But that Epi Elitist was seriously immaculate all the way around, and the tones she produced including that unique SG midrange growl was no less impressive! The only things I would improve on the Epi 61' reissue would be the bridge pickup and possibly the nut because I like a relatively slippery nut for easy of tuning. There's a wonderful blend of sounds to be had between both pickups. Her neck pickup is way excellent. It's bold and warm with plenty of bass and ringing overtones. The bridge pickup was tight but seemed almost underpowered in comparison and just not quite enough low end. But perhaps under a very loud overdriven amp, that's a bonus. |
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Location: Chicagoland | Epiphone seems to have good quality control. For an even better deal, you might want to look into trying out a couple lesser known brands.
I use DR 11s now. I had pure blues once, but I prefer tite fit. Besides, the local store carried tite fit, and I'd like to support them, you know? |
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Location: Northern Indiana | Thanks but are their any other namebrands that makes a good SG copy? So far I've not had any luck with all those that come close to resembling an SG, including, Ibanez AXS, ESP Viper, non Elitist Epiphone SG's. I don't know exactly what it is, but the SG design produces a distinctive and amazing sound that I haven't found anywhere else except with Gibson and Epiphone. I've also been looking on ebay to find a used Epiphone SG 61' reissue, but I haven't found any yet. It might be cheaper for me to buy a used Gibson SG standard, but they usually go for more than the new Epi. Also, I found a guitar store that would give me decent value on my Gibson Explorer for trade in, so the Epi 61' reissue is looking like a winner so far. |
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Location: Northern Indiana | Any progress updates?
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year! |
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Location: Northern Indiana | Oh ya, here's mine. I'm going for a Gibson SG and not the Epi after all. Upon closer evaluation, the pickups in the Epi were just not good enough, the Gibson SG Standard pickups were much better. |
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Location: Chicagoland | Nothing new. I'm working on a song featuring the Preacher for you though. |
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Location: Northern Indiana | Wow, I'm honored. I was serious about staying in touch and I'd like to hear from your demo CD too.
MERRY CRISTMAS!!!
Thank you God for showing yourself and your nature so wonderfully in the gift of your Son... |
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Location: Northern Indiana | E. Sherman,
Have you not taken the instrament in yet? I'm a bit surprised that it's taking so long. Any update? |
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Location: Chicagoland | Nah I haven't taken it in yet. I've been using it. I got a new cable for christmas that isn't a 90 dergree angle plug, so the plug almost never twists around enough to cut out the sound.
Other than that, I've just been using it. I want to take it out to a shop to get it setup, but the one that was recommened to me is ratehr far away and I can't drive. So I'm waiting on that. |
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Location: Northern Indiana | Please let me know how your guitar is working out for you. I'm still interested in it's progress over the issues that need improvement. I'm happy to hear that you are playing it in the mean time.
Guitar search update.
I finally found an excellent deal on a Gibson SG Standard. The small let down is that it's ebony instead of a translucent finish, I like cherry or natural/brown best. It has some pretty deep frontal scratches so the price was much lower than one in excellent cosmetic condition.
It was made sometime in latter Oct of 2001 and plays and sounds great. I'm so glad I found a lighter guitar. My back just isn't what it used to be.
Thanks Eric for buying my old ovation preacher, that helped me acquire my new guitar. |
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Location: Chicagoland | No problem. One question I've been wondering latley, is which spring in the pickups had a problem? Latley, the neck pickup has been rising up to the point that its touching the strings, and a screw keeps coming up. When i screw it back in, it of course goes up some more, then I has to sorta play around with for awhile and work it back down. Every once in awhile it comes back up though.
Any thoughts? |
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Location: Latitude 39.56819, Longitude -105.080066 | Sounds like the screw has come out of the spring. The only fix I know (and that I have done) is to remove the pickguard and very carefully realign the screw with the springs. It wasn't to difficult with my Viper but it was a real bitch with the 3 pup Viper 3. |
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Location: Northern Indiana | Eric,
The one I remember working on was the bridge pickup one. It was pretty much ok except that it would rock back and forth a bit loose, especially if you tipped the guitar somewhat upside down.
The platform that the spring sits on is also the place where the adjustment screws are mounted. As I recall and I mentioned before, the one side of the bridge PU mount is stripped or somehow partially broken. So that one I temporarily fixed for the spring but the screw mount still needs attention. I found out about that while preparing to ship it to you.
If you are going to open it up, go easy. You should fix (in a more permanent fashion) any spring and adjustment screw mounting/retainers so that the adjustment screws all function properly. And that task might mean refurbishing some plastic molded parts. I don't know much about that sort of thing.
From what I remember, one screw mount was not working right, that was the bridge pickup, but I did not work on the neck pickup area. But again, if you open it up, it's likely to dislodge the temporary fix I made for the bridge pickup spring issue, then you'll have two fixes to contend with instead of just one. Point is, if you open it up, you might want to plan on your guitar being out of commission for a spell unless you can fix it all in short order.
If you do open it up, you might as well look into the guitar cord jack to see is there is a loose connection somewhere. The physical jack itself should be tight and immobile so that it does not move around. In many guitars, they end up becoming loose, and usually that does not present a problem. But they should be tight. And of course all the wires need to be check for proper connection.
I would try to fix those issues at home between yourself and your father instead of paying a guitar shop to do such a non-standard plastic mount repair.
I would expect to fix it with creative minds and household repair items because replacement parts may not be available and if they were, they might be pretty expensive since these guitars have been out of production for a couple of decades. If I recall correctly, I emailed you a suggestion something about finding the equivalent metal nut and then somehow fastening that onto the plastic assembly. But you need to be careful that it is fastened in a way that lines up well with the screw alignment, and does not the mess up the spring retention area. However, potentially, you may want to change the spring size or tension to accommodate your new screw adjuster mount(s).
So I guess it's start with the screw adjustment retainers(?)/inserts, and then hope that you can use the same springs over that likely larger/raised nut configuration. Check all visible wire connections, and ensure that the jack input is well secured after taking it out and examining it's own connections.
Did you already check out if there were shims under the neckpiece at the body joint? That might have helped you get the lower action that you were looking for.
Thanks for the continued updates. |
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Location: Northern Indiana | About the action, I forgot that you were going to take it to a guitar tech for setup. Let us know how the pickup adjusters and springs issue goes. Oh, I almost forgot. There are other ways to "fix" the pickup height adjustment if you are willing to keep it in a fixed location,,, but first I'd try to fix it so that the adjusters work properly as originally designed. But if you provide a different way to keep your pickups right where you want them, it's no crime to deviate from the stock setup. ;)
The SG is awesome, but now it makes me want a decent tube amp in a big way. I try to get in a groove and let the guitar sing, but then the amp (cheapy solid state) keeps holding it back. Well, in the mean time, at least I am more motivated and determined to practice and improve my guitar skills.
:rolleyes: :) |
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Location: Chicagoland | Indeed. I'll take a look at it. Really, I don't mind if I make the pickup imobile. I don't move it around at all, the sound dosent change much. Not nearly as sensitive as my Strat.
Considering the guitar is essentially out of commission right now, I'll have to check it out when I get time. |
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Location: Northern Indiana | Eric,
Ok, if you don't mind setting the pickups into a more or less permanent location, then I suggest the nonstandard procedure of securing the pickups from the bottom of the PU cavity to the bottom of the pickup/assembly itself. You could insert some sort of spacer in there, perhaps a wooden spacer and place that into the cavity pit and then put the pickup assembly onto that. It will keep the pickup from going too far away from the strings, and the adjustment tension spring should push the pickup towards the wood block to make it stable against the bottom of the PU cavity. That way you only need to worry about having the springs stay put, which seems like a fairly easy task.
You would likely need to test several heights until you find the one that works best for you. I would determine the ideal location of each PU. Then with some tape, mark the height of the PU where it is even with the top of the pickguard. Then, after carefully removing the pick guard, I would determine the thickness of the pickguard and add that thickness to the taped height indication (downward towards the guitar) so that you can then base the proper height of the PU by the readily available top of the guitar using a straight edge of some sort without having to keep reinstalling and removing the pickguard each time you make an adjustment.
I don't know what is the best way to secure the block. I suppose that if you made the block to fit fairly closely or fairly tight to the size and shape of the PU pit, then you could just slip it down in there and then just let the PU spring do the rest by pushing the entire PU assembly downward against the PU cavity, keeping everything secure.
If you end up not replacing the adjuster screws, perhaps you should put then in a safe storage place that will always stay with the guitar.
Checking the input jack should be pretty simple, although I never did that on that guitar, as it never gave me any issues. After the pickguard is off, if you do not have easy access to the jack, I would loosen up the exterior nut that holds the jack in place, and then slip the jack out of it's interior position for up close inspection. Then you can check the connections for integrity. Of course, you also need to check the wires that come from the jack to make sure the other end is also properly secured. It is possible that the jack itself needs attention. You might clean it with some alcohol wipes of some kind, and make sure the retention spring works properly, not too loose, not bent out of shape. Also make sure that the ends of your cables are clean as well.
You were playing it, now it's out of commission. Sounds like perhaps you'll end up having the opportunity to do the needed repair work. I'd guess that it should not take much more than one evening, if all goes well, probably less unless forming the PU spacers takes some extra time to complete.
I hope this proves helpful. I hope school is going well for you. Best wishes. |
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Location: Chicagoland | Ok, thanks for the tips.
By the way, I know I said I owed you a song with the preacher, but I do have two uploaded recently done with my Strat. At least it's something, I guess.
Song numbah 1
Song numbah 2
Cheers. |
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Location: Chicagoland | All right I took five mintues to open it up and check it out. It seems teh screw and/or screwhole is stripped, so I grabbed some scraps of wood fromt eh garage, broke them up into little, rough rectangles and put them on the bottom of the pickup cavity. It seems to be at the right level.
I broke a string (strangly while unwinding) so I think I'll clean it all up and get some new strings.
As for the input jack, nothing really seemed to be wrong...I read somewhere that old, low quality cables's groundign or sheilding or soemthing can come loose. Given that both of my old cables are right angle, old, and cheap, and the fact that my new cable works fine with the guitar, I'd say I don't have to much to worry about on that front. |
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Location: Northern Indiana | Wow, interesting stuff. How did you do the drums on the second song? I like the transitions and overall composition, plus the various guitar chord rhythm parts was cool. I'm more of a more traditional blues based rock genre, so your style of music is fairly different than mine.
How many instruments were used in each piece? How many tracks? How many people on the recordings? I agree that the vocals could have been a bit higher in volume, but I can see you wanted a predominantly subtle (almost spooky) vocal track, neat stuff.
Why do you post after and with the admin, are you the admin also?
I am suspicious of placing more than one spacer in there if each spacer is not pretty much the full size of the cavity. If you set multiple wedges in there that are not each stacked on top of each other, then they could eventually move around and dislodge things. Maybe I did not understand your description correctly.
I'm glad to be (casually) staying in touch. Keep up the good work!
:cool: |
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Location: Chicagoland | Nah the 'spacers' are just scraps of wood stacked on top of each other. I checked it out and they hold fine. But, 30 years from now when they pry it from my dead hands, they will find a little suprise in there. My friend has an old Ovation electric bass and when he opened it up he discovered that soem repair work had been done with duct tape, of all things.
No, im an admin, it just so happens that another guy on there is named Erik. I'm Eric.
Drums I found...somewhere off the internet. I got the drums, bass, and electric in one, and minus the drums and add a 12 string for the other. Number of tracks...for Radio, mabye 3 or 4, for Ramona, like 5 or 6.
I wouldn't worry about ir genre-wise. I listen and compose in a huge variety.
Mabye I should start a new thread. :D |
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Location: Northern Indiana | You mean the drums are real and you play them or that they were found off the internet and downloaded like software, or? If so, what program do you use?
My latest is that I have a solid deal forming on a Marshall JCM 800 combo that I am about to get! In the mean time, I've been playing on this little walmart solid state bass amp with an effects pedal for distortion and it sounds pretty poor, I can't wait to upgrade!!! |
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Location: Northern Indiana | I still wonder if you played an actual set of drums, or if it was a digital drum machine thing.(?)
I finally got the amp, and it is so cool. Had fun last night jamming. Great tone and distortion, very loud, very heavy too. A really great match for the SG. |
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Help w/adjusting the action on a Preacher bolt on neck